Church/MH Superman 1 record sale in January 7 7

[Dark Knight]

On 4/17/2022 at 3:03 PM, lou_fine said:

On 4/17/2022 at 2:55 PM, G.A.tor said:

2-john and rose still own last I spoke to them about it 

Was this before or after our resident fellow boardie trillionaire, Mr. Tim Frommelt himself, arrived on the scene throwing bags of imaginery money around for the best of the best?  

Hey if people throw bags of money into imaginary stuff, why can't imaginary money be a thing now 

I think Tim F. is certainly onto something big here 

[woowoo]

On 4/17/2022 at 9:13 PM, Dark Knight said:

Hey if people throw bags of money into imaginary stuff, why can't imaginary money be a thing now 

I think Tim F. is certainly onto something big here 

What you got for sale @Dark Knight

[Dark Knight]

On 4/17/2022 at 6:17 PM, woowoo said:

On 4/17/2022 at 5:56 PM, jimbo_7071 said:

Was there ever any importance to a pedigree beyond the actual condition of a book? Mile High copies were selling for three times guide in the 80s because they were much fresher than the books that most dealers were calling near mint. From what I remember, dealers would call any book that would today would be an 8.0 with cream pages and tanned covers near mint, and the Mile High books were much fresher and nicer. Nobody ever cared whose basement they had been stored in. It was all about the appearance and freshness.

In the 80s ever Dealer in the SF bay area thought Chuck was a nut asking 3 times guide  and 3 times guide was 1000-2000-3000 back than for the top books  that shows how old I am man those were great times 

Damn.. You are old

[Dark Knight]

On 4/17/2022 at 9:28 PM, woowoo said:

What you got for sale @Dark Knight

Whatever imaginary item you got in your head, I have it!

[woowoo]

On 4/17/2022 at 9:53 PM, Dark Knight said:

Whatever imaginary item you got in your head, I have it!

Edited April 18, 2022 by woowoo

[VintageComics]

On 4/17/2022 at 6:29 PM, Aman619 said:

On 4/17/2022 at 5:35 PM, lou_fine said:

As I've always said, it's really a case of to each their own, and in this particular case, it probably really depends more upon Dave's mindset and whether or not he even cares what other collectors or speculators might think.  

Does he even really care about what numerical label his copy is going to get since he probably feels more than comfortable and secure in his own mind that he's still got the superior copy as compared to the Church copy of Superman 1.  Especially when his copy might be a truly unrestored copy as compared to the Church copy which was rather kind of looked down upon back in the day, as many of the collectors really thought of it as a "double restored" copy that had been worked upon and then worked upon a second time to have the restoration removed, albeit not all of it.  

No surprise about the resurgence in the importance of the bigger more established pedigrees in relationship to the CGC grades themselves.  Especially when a pedigree is always a pedigree, whereas the same definitely cannot be said about the grade or restoration stauts of a book with all of the grade manipulation and restoration definition changes in this current environment to maximize the dollars for ALL parties involved.  Heck, how much money do you want to really put down on a book based upon just the CGC grade if you can even see a GA book go from an already HG CGC 9.0 all the way up to a CGC 9.8 and yet it still looks exactly the same from just a visual scan.    

Expand  

I don’t have the massive stick up my xxxx you do about CGC grading. To me their grades ARE the grade, and I’ve gotten expected grades, great grades and disappointing ones. Times have evolved from the days of everyone deciding their own books grades.  If DA was in the mindset of pre CGC when he picked his keeper copies, he could be as surprised as we all have been on some submissions we bought or chose as the better copy. That’s all I’m saying. 
 

As we know, Dave owned all 3 of the best Superman 1s. So he’s probably okay.  But —- None of us know the grade until we get them back. And “truly unrestored” is meaningless for these books. None of these books is truly unrestored. It’s a quaint point of view.  There’s no way DA or family won’t discuss what needs to be done. 

Someone may know better, but from everything that's been written about Dave he doesn't seem to care what anyone else thinks about his books. If he did, he'd be grading them.

He allegedly also has no plans to sell them so the value isn't at the forefront of his mind. 

He sounds like a 'true collector' that only wants 'the best of the best' to his eye.  He trusts his own eye, isn't buying for the money and doesn't care what anyone else thinks. 

I thought the discussion about how the Church Superman #1 may have been perceived 20 years ago and today was a significant one. If the defects keeping the grade or desirability down 20 years ago are in fact being graded differently today that certainly changes the perspective of a bit, at least as far as the market is concerned. 

[jimbo_7071]

On 4/18/2022 at 5:30 PM, VintageComics said:

Someone may know better, but from everything that's been written about Dave he doesn't seem to care what anyone else thinks about his books. If he did, he'd be grading them.

He allegedly also has no plans to sell them so the value isn't at the forefront of his mind. 

He sounds like a 'true collector' that only wants 'the best of the best' to his eye.  He trusts his own eye, isn't buying for the money and doesn't care what anyone else thinks. 

I thought the discussion about how the Church Superman #1 may have been perceived 20 years ago and today was a significant one. If the defects keeping the grade or desirability down 20 years ago are in fact being graded differently today that certainly changes the perspective of a bit, at least as far as the market is concerned. 

Roy, do you know whether the Church Supes 1 is the first printing that has the house ad stating "Coming Soon," or is it the reprint that has "On Sale Now" in the house ad?

Edited April 19, 2022 by jimbo_7071

[VintageComics]

On 4/18/2022 at 6:01 PM, jimbo_7071 said:

Roy, do you know whether the Church Supes 1 is the first printing that has the house as stating "Coming Soon," or is it the reprint that has "On Sale Now" in the house ad?

I don't. I've never seen the interior. 

[rob_react]

On 4/18/2022 at 6:05 PM, VintageComics said:

I don't. I've never seen the interior. 

I imagine the only people who have seen the interior since the 1990s are at CGC. It was in a fortress before it was graded. Literally, the biggest, most diesel fortress I'd ever seen. 

[rob_react]

It was one of these, inside ANOTHER frame https://comics.ha.com/itm/memorabilia/comic-related/fortress-comic-protector-group-pedrin-conservatory-1990s-this-is-a-group-of-13-fortress-comic-book-holders-they-are/a/14101-16835.s

 

 

[adamstrange]

On 4/20/2022 at 2:17 PM, rob_react said:

It was one of these, inside ANOTHER frame https://comics.ha.com/itm/memorabilia/comic-related/fortress-comic-protector-group-pedrin-conservatory-1990s-this-is-a-group-of-13-fortress-comic-book-holders-they-are/a/14101-16835.s

 

 

I have a few of those.

[lou_fine]

On 4/17/2022 at 5:33 PM, sfcityduck said:

With CGC in play, the import of a pedigree seems vastly diminished. 

 

The benefit of the whole "pedigree" concept, an additional reassurance that the book you are buying is as described, has largely evaporated with the internet and CGC. 

Absolutely no surprise here as in this age of certification that most of the CGC generation of collectors/speculators would place the importance of the CGC label above everything else.  I guess no surpise here, but being a longer term collector from long before CGC was even a thought in anybody's mind, I would tend to disagree to a certain extent here.  

Although I believe it's always a case of to each their own, but I feel that a pedigree will always be a pedigree, but this is definitely NOT the case with the certified grade of a book as history has clearly shown us that grades are easily changeable through gradeflation and artifical manipulation of the book itself.  I will agree though that the concept of a comic book pedigree has certainly become more watered down with the addition of much lessor pedigrees like the Cookville, Eldon, Harold Curtis collections and the likes which seem to be more significant for their size, as opposed to the actual quality of their condition, as most books from these pedigrees are not in HG condition.  Of course, we all know the real reason why they were added in by CGC as pedigrees.    

With the grading game being juiced up and in full play with the current grading regime in place right now, I actually feel that the significance of the old line major pedigrees such as the Church, Allentown, Tom Reilly, etc. have actually risen, especially in comparison to the first few years of CGC.  Personally for myself, I know that I would definitely take a slightly lower graded Allentown pedigree book over a slightly higher graded non-pedigree book any day of the week, especially if that book had been "doctored up" from a lower grade in its prior life.  After all, it's pretty tough to beat having an Allentown book in your collection, especially since it is only 1 out of a grand total of 135 possible books or the same with a nice Denver since it is only 1 out of a grand total of 153 possible books out there.    

Edited April 20, 2022 by lou_fine

[comicnoir]

On 4/20/2022 at 3:04 PM, adamstrange said:

I have a few of those.

So do I. To hold my Spawn 1.

[sfcityduck]

On 4/20/2022 at 1:46 PM, lou_fine said:

After all, it's pretty tough to beat having an Allentown book in your collection, especially since it is only 1 out of a grand total of 135 possible books 

If you want the best copy and the Allentown is the best copy, you get it.  But the Allentown pedigree adds nothing to the value for me beyond the quality of the book because it has no story or history of significance. I'd take a better non-ped over an Allentown because these days you don't need the pedigree rep as an indicia of the book's quality.  With the internet, even remotely, we can side by side and evaluate books from incredibly high quality images.  Now the ped concept is just puffery unless it has a good story.

[rob_react]

 

On 4/20/2022 at 9:11 PM, sfcityduck said:

If you want the best copy and the Allentown is the best copy, you get it.  But the Allentown pedigree adds nothing to the value for me beyond the quality of the book because it has no story or history of significance. I'd take a better non-ped over an Allentown because these days you don't need the pedigree rep as an indicia of the book's quality.  With the internet, even remotely, we can side by side and evaluate books from incredibly high quality images.  Now the ped concept is just puffery unless it has a good story.

There are some people like you who hold no or little value in pedigree books. This is obvious to me since it's an opinion that people are very vocal about on these boards and I have (n probably a dozen occasions) written pretty well-reasoned responses. I always answer with something similar to the following truncated version. If that's the way you feel, that's cool. On the flip side, there are still people paying 2-10x GPA for some pedigree books.  There are definitely different multiples within the pedigrees, for sure, but it's not down to the story as much as the perceived quality, as far as I've seen. I'm more personally experienced with silver age pedigrees, but the same holds true with GA pedigrees as far as I've seen. The really high quality collections get people excited- to the point where they'll pay 9.8 non-pedigree prices (or more) for 9.4 pedigree books (which I've seen as both a buyer and a seller.) Talk to me about buying White Mountain Daredevils (a completely anonymous pedigree- other than the association with Jerry Weist, I guess.)   

[sfcityduck]

On 4/20/2022 at 6:29 PM, rob_react said:

 

There are some people like you who hold no or little value in pedigree books. This is obvious to me since it's an opinion that people are very vocal about on these boards and I have (n probably a dozen occasions) written pretty well-reasoned responses. I always answer with something similar to the following truncated version. If that's the way you feel, that's cool. On the flip side, there are still people paying 2-10x GPA for some pedigree books.  There are definitely different multiples within the pedigrees, for sure, but it's not down to the story as much as the perceived quality, as far as I've seen. I'm more personally experienced with silver age pedigrees, but the same holds true with GA pedigrees as far as I've seen. The really high quality collections get people excited- to the point where they'll pay 9.8 non-pedigree prices (or more) for 9.4 pedigree books (which I've seen as both a buyer and a seller.) Talk to me about buying White Mountain Daredevils (a completely anonymous pedigree- other than the association with Jerry Weist, I guess.)   

I get your argument.  But the pedigree bonus is an artifact of Chuck's brilliant marketing and the quality standard initially set by the Mile Highs.  Chuck figured out how to leverage the quality of the collection to provide comfort to buyers that they were getting a super high quality books that they were buying sight unseen.  He built the model.  But, it is a pre-internet model.  Chuck didn't have the ability to send HD pics.  Today, we don't need that model.  Today, the big pedigree bonuses are based on the story.  That's why the Promise Collection was sold by Heritage and CGC as a new Okajima, not a new Allentown.  Mile High's also have story value.  Allentown copies get great results in the marketplace  because they are just phenomenal quality copies and rare, not because they have an Okajima quality historical value or a MH quality comic historical value that will make up for low quality.  

You know that the top two Action 1 results were non-peds.  The peds didn't pass them up despite the .5 deficit and the upgrade history of the CGC 9.0s.  I think that pretty much shuts the door on the argument that ped matters more than CGC grade and perceived quality.  You know that DA's copy of Superman 1, if it is better quality and gets a higher CGC grade, will blow out the MH copy because it will be the "best."  We are in a new era now from back when Chuck was doing mail order sight unseen. We have the comfort of HD pics and CGC grades. Being a MH does not mean it is perceived as the "best" any more.  But the Okajima results show that a good story tied to significant history or comic history can trump grade and perceived quality in the lower grades.  To me, pedigree matters more on the lower end than it does on the higher.

Not a denigration of peds.  Obviously, many peds are in the top echelons of the census.  Some peds are just super cool concepts.

Edited April 21, 2022 by sfcityduck

[lou_fine]

On 4/20/2022 at 4:55 PM, comicnoir said:

On 4/20/2022 at 12:04 PM, adamstrange said:

I have a few of those.

So do I. To hold my Spawn 1.

I remember picking up a couple of these back at one of the SD Con's back in the mid 90's or thereabouts, but never did end up using them.  

Pretty much just an earlier verison of the slab, but much more unwieldy, bulkier, and even less attractive than simply putting your books into mylar sleeves where the real beauty and colors of the books just shines right through.  

 

[Crowzilla]

On 4/20/2022 at 10:25 PM, sfcityduck said:

You know that the top two Action 1 results were non-peds.  The peds didn't pass them up despite the .5 deficit and the upgrade history of the CGC 9.0s.  I think that pretty much shuts the door on the argument that ped matters more than CGC grade and perceived quality. 

How do we know the peds didn't/wouldn't pass them? I don't believe the KC copy of Action 1 has sold since it's original $1 million result a dozen years ago (and it's "only" an 8.0), and the Larson #1 has not sold since pre-CGC days. Truth is we have no idea what they would bring if they came back on the market. My guess is that if the Larson went to auction it would set a new record sales price for a comic.

And Allentown has a great story attached to it, the best known copies of Detective #27 and Captain America #1 came from it (as well as best known copies of Mysterymen #1, Special Edition #1, Detective #38, Wonderworld #3, and several others - quite possibly including the Batman #1). I think that is a great and remarkable story for a collection that would fit in a half box.

[lou_fine]

On 4/20/2022 at 6:11 PM, sfcityduck said:

With the internet, even remotely, we can side by side and evaluate books from incredibly high quality images. 

To each their own, but if you don't see any value in a pedigree or a label, it's definitely good that you can side by side the books and use your own eyes and hands to see and determine for yourself which copy is the better copy.  

[sfcityduck]

On 4/20/2022 at 8:22 PM, Crowzilla said:

 

And Allentown has a great story attached to it, the best known copies of Detective #27 and Captain America #1 came from it (as well as best known copies of Mysterymen #1, Special Edition #1, Detective #38, Wonderworld #3, and several others - quite possibly including the Batman #1). I think that is a great and remarkable story for a collection that would fit in a half box.

That's not a story at all.  That's just grades.  The 100 some odd Allentown books, a volume that originally was too small to be a ped, include some of the best quality books around.  But, there is zero story attached to that ped.  We don't know the OO, we don't know anything about the books other than its a small group of really nice books. Hell, the Rocket Copy of Action 1 has more of a story.  So do the Billy Wright books.  With Allentown we get nada, other than grades.

With Okajima we get a story of the Japanese internment.  With MH, we get a story of the creation of the whole ped concept and a revolution in the marketing of comics in this hobby.  With Gaines we get industry association.  With SF we get a story of parental heartbreak and WWII (not verified).  With Promise we get brotherly love.  Allentown is not like some others on the story front.