Superhero fatigue - is it real or does it come down to good storytelling? 2 2

[Sauce Dog]

It is very much real and felt by me and many I speak with. The vast majority of comic book films simply feel like they are vehicles for showcasing the superheroes & expanding the universe/brand; not to tell unique stories that the genre can express better than others. There isn't really a 'range' to the CBM films yet, as all are basically the same action/comedy vibe across the board with little to no other genre branches and variety (no explicit horror movies, no stylistic art house experiments in story telling, no pure romantic films, no period dramas, no coming-of-age films etc).

Gone is the initial excitement of just seeing these characters come to life on screen, and now I honestly couldn't care less who the next 'big-bad' in the films are (same with the slew of what feels like endless forced Easter eggs in these films, that are less of a thoughtful homage or callback and more akin to brand product placement now expected by fans). As was already said above, the single best superhero/comic films in the last few years was 'Everything, Everywhere All at Once'.
 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Sauce Dog

[WolverineX]

On 1/27/2023 at 1:27 PM, Gatsby77 said:

Storytelling - duh.

Shang-Chi, Eternals, Morbius and Black Adam didn't bomb because of "superhero fatigue."

They bombed because they sucked.

More specifically, they didn't offer audiences anything they hadn't seen (and done far better) before.

Shang Chi didn't even bomb... it was one of the biggest movies in 2021.

[Gatsby77]

On 1/28/2023 at 7:45 PM, WolverineX said:

Shang Chi didn't even bomb... it was one of the biggest movies in 2021.

It was # 2 domestically - Doesn't mean it was successful.

Or, more specifically, profitable.

It did $432 million worldwide against a reported $150-$200 million budget.

And consensus industry reports noted it was still not yet profitable when it hit $400 million.

By comparison, Dr. Strange 2 and Black Panther 2 did better than $400 million just domestically.

Hell - even Love and Thunder did better than $700 million worldwide - and I've not met anyone who actually liked that film.

[WolverineX]

On 1/28/2023 at 9:01 PM, Gatsby77 said:

It was # 2 domestically - Doesn't mean it was successful.

Or, more specifically, profitable.

It did $432 million worldwide against a reported $150-$200 million budget.

And consensus industry reports noted it was still not yet profitable when it hit $400 million.

By comparison, Dr. Strange 2 and Black Panther 2 did better than $400 million just domestically.

Hell - even Love and Thunder did better than $700 million worldwide - and I've not met anyone who actually liked that film.

200 million profit isn't bombing though. 

[Gatsby77]

On 1/28/2023 at 9:16 PM, WolverineX said:

200 million profit isn't bombing though. 

But no - it likely didn't make a profit theatrically.

Point is, it's relative - pandemic or no, the film definitely underperformed expectations.

But hey - if you think it was successful, that's cool.

I look forward to the sequel.

 

[paperheart]

On 1/28/2023 at 6:16 PM, WolverineX said:

200 million profit isn't bombing though. 

math is hard, there is zero chance Shang-Chi made a profit of $200MM

[WolverineX]

On 1/28/2023 at 10:01 PM, paperheart said:

math is hard, there is zero chance Shang-Chi made a profit of $200MM

 

 

[Bosco685]

On 1/28/2023 at 9:35 PM, Gatsby77 said:

But no - it likely didn't make a profit theatrically.

Point is, it's relative - pandemic or no, the film definitely underperformed expectations.

But hey - if you think it was successful, that's cool.

I look forward to the sequel.

During the pandemic any film doing 2.9x production budget was a high point, though as a MCU Phase IV film much more was expected.

It most probably was barely profitable. As with any average-budgeted large action film (unlike Avatar 2's budget which accounted for new technology and filming its sequel and parts of that sequel's follow-on film) 2.5x-2.8x would be a breakeven range. But certainly not a massive profit. And especially without China's historic MCU contributions, which banned the film most probably due to Simu Liu interview statements.

[Kripsys99]

I don't think it's about super hero fatigue, so much as Marvel and bad movie/show fatigue. Phase 4 has been beyond meh.

Marvel was always going to suffer by losing Iron Man, Captain America, and Black Widow in Endgame - but they have really bungled things in Phase 4.

Increasing output while simultaneously decreasing quality in an ever expanding universe with no clear direction for casual viewers is a recipe for disaster.

I wouldn't mind keeping up with all things Marvel if the shows and movies they were releasing were good, but with few exceptions, the content Disney/Marvel has been pumping out has been bad.

There has been some great superhero content that I've really enjoyed of late. I liked Loki. I loved The Batman. I think Peacemaker may be my favorite superhero show ever. So if you make decent content, count me in.

Also, I hate to delve into culture wars territory, but I do wonder how much the push for inclusivity in Marvel properties is hurting the brand and driving away fans overall, particularly male fans, who have historically been the primary consumers and drivers of superhero content.

There's a YouTuber called Nerdrotic who does videos critical of what he calls the "M-She-U". I'm not a big fan of his style, and doubt we'd have much in common in terms of politics, but he does make some good points about inclusivity seemingly taking precedent over quality storytelling at Disney Marvel. There's a montage in this video of his which shows just how often of late the male heroes require saving by their female counterparts.

https://youtu.be/6-iDk3Fuv6k

I remember seeing an interview with the creators of He-man, and them talking about the decision which led to the downfall of the franchise in the 80's. They tied it to their decision to release She-Ra. In trying to capture the smaller market of girls who wanted to play with action figures, they alienated their primary audience of boys. Suddenly He-Man toys weren't action figures, they were dolls. It wasn't cool to play with toys your sister liked too.

My son and daughter are both big into superheroes. My son Spider-Man, my daughter DC Superhero Girls - so there's room for both. But I notice with the superhero media each enjoys, there's not a lot of overlap/similarities between the characters, themes, or storylines, and it would be difficult to marry the two.

Anyways, my two cents.

Edited January 29, 2023 by Kripsys99

[1950's war comics]

On 1/27/2023 at 10:56 AM, Axelrod said:

 "Big climactic CGI fight" 

every time that happens i just stare at the bottom right corner of the screen. the CGI fights move so fast and yet are terribly boring

[eastriver400]

On 1/29/2023 at 11:26 AM, Kripsys99 said:

I don't think it's about super hero fatigue, so much as Marvel and bad movie/show fatigue. Phase 4 has been beyond meh.

This. It comes down to good storytelling.

i dont want to derail the topic here, but storytelling is exactly why I am bullish on Gunn and DC right now. The man is a great storyteller.

I hope he does well, for many reasons including the sake of the superhero genre on a whole, which trickles down to our hobby. We need a little disruption right now. 

[The humble Watcher lurking]

Here is a example of a upcoming trailer of why I am fatigued.

Seems like the same thing over and over. Bad CGI, and earth gets attacked until heroes save it. Saw that scenario far too many times.

I rather watch Yellowstone or Sopranos reruns. lol.

 

[Cat]

On 1/30/2023 at 5:56 AM, The humble Watcher lurking said:

Here is a example of a upcoming trailer of why I am fatigued.

Seems like the same thing over and over. Bad CGI, and earth gets attacked until heroes save it. Saw that scenario far too many times.

I rather watch Yellowstone or Sopranos reruns. lol.

 

Heyyy, this one looks alright, and it's coming on the heels of Bumblebee, which was a quality film. Plus ROTB stars Mirage, and he's awesome, therefore the film must be awesome, that's just science! Ditto for Rhinox. 

PS and @Bosco685 why not Transformers Rise Of The Beasts thread? 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Cat

[Sauce Dog]

On 1/29/2023 at 3:58 PM, Cat said:

Heyyy, this one looks alright, and it's coming on the heels of Bumblebee, which was a quality film. Plus ROTB stars Mirage, and he's awesome, therefore the film must be awesome, that's just science! Ditto for Rhinox. 

PS and @Bosco685 why not Transformers Rise Of The Beasts thread? 

It looks like they went right back to the bay-verse formula, disregarding lessons learned during BB of what made for a good movie...also I would heavily lower your expectations when it comes to Rhinox (unless of course you only care he is a Rhino...and compared to the other leaks we knew he wasn't the most butchered characterization, so at least he still has that going for him I guess). 

[TupennyConan]

I had such enthusiasm for P4 going into WandaVision. I saw so much promise in the MCU's future with the acquisition of the FOX properties. Thanos was done, on to the future, on to all the many characters & stories still left untold, or in need of being retold & recast, as the case is with X-Men. Now I hardly gaf. That isn't to say I didn't enjoy WandaVision. It was great fun, but ultimately a kind of shell game or 3 card monte. Its enormous promise ended in a muddled, self-destructive mess, just like P4. 

[Cat]

On 1/30/2023 at 7:09 AM, Sauce Dog said:

It looks like they went right back to the bay-verse formula, disregarding lessons learned during BB of what made for a good movie...also I would heavily lower your expectations when it comes to Rhinox (unless of course you only care he is a Rhino...and compared to the other leaks we knew he wasn't the most butchered characterization, so at least he still has that going for him I guess). 

I'm lowering my expectations for the whole film, tbh. I expect it to be better than a Bay flick, but I'm still a bit nervous. It doesn't help that things don't really look all that different. 

 

[rexinnih]

Fatigue - yes IMHO. Too many movies, TV shows, competing companies (Marvel vs. DC) coming out at once. Characters that I didn't have familiarity with moved it past the nostalgia phase for me and I focused more on good story telling and actually enjoying what's on the screen. I have to keep in mind that the Infinity Stone arc and first 20ish movies that led up to Endgame set a high bar (in my opinion) and hope that Marvel can get things back up with Kang. 

[TupennyConan]

The problem with KANG is twofold: 1. we all know he is merely a placeholder villain until we get to DOOM, Galactus, & Magneto 2. he's KANG.  

[Gatsby77]

On 1/30/2023 at 3:31 PM, TupennyConan said:

The problem with KANG is twofold: 1. we all know he is merely a placeholder villain until we get to DOOM, Galactus, & Magneto 2. he's KANG.  

I mean, re. # 2 - you’re not wrong.

My memory of him from the ‘80s Avengers books was that he kept being thwarted not by the actions of the heroes themselves but more by his own actions…because he was a dumb-a**
In the comics he was like Marvel’s equivalent of the Ferengi.

[@therealsilvermane]

On 1/30/2023 at 2:25 PM, rexinnih said:

Fatigue - yes IMHO. Too many movies, TV shows, competing companies (Marvel vs. DC) coming out at once. Characters that I didn't have familiarity with moved it past the nostalgia phase for me and I focused more on good story telling and actually enjoying what's on the screen. I have to keep in mind that the Infinity Stone arc and first 20ish movies that led up to Endgame set a high bar (in my opinion) and hope that Marvel can get things back up with Kang. 

At least you're calling out both Marvel and DC for your fatigue. A lot of comments read like a MCU-Anonymous therapy pool.

Personally, I feel "it" would feel less crowded if DC would just stop trying to create their own MCU again and again and again. They failed with the Snyderverse. They apparently failed with the immediate post-Snyderverse. And I saw Gunn's Suicide Squad. What makes anyone think the Gunnverse will be any different? Einstein is misquoted as saying "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Here's some useless fan advice to WB: let Marvel Studios handle the expanded super-hero universe thing, and let DC Studios just focus on quality one-off super-hero tales like The Batman or Joker every now and then. You might lose less money that way and not overcrowd the market with super-hero movies that the general public doesn't show out for i.e. Birds of Prey, Suicide Squad 2.0, Black Adam, etc.

Sony certainly isn't helping with their awful Venomverse, either. Nobody, and I mean nobody, cares that Kraven and Madame Web are on the horizon.

As for the MCU in Phase Four, I have definitely noticed less fan chatter amongst casual fans, which describes most folks I know. The NOVELTY of a successful super-hero universe that we saw in Phase One seems to have worn off. And perhaps the superhero FAD we saw amongst casual fans during parts of Phase Two and all of Phase Three, when we got hit after hit like GOTG, Ragnarok, Black Panther, two Avengers movies, etc, may have worn off, too. 

Perhaps there's something to the quantity of MCU output the past two years without any real Avengers level "event' films besides Spider-Man No Way Home, which seems to be the main focus of some Phase Four critics, that this Phase lacked focus, i.e. a lead up to a Phase Four Avengers movie. Whatever. At this point, I feel Marvel can do whatever they want to do. They've earned it, and enough moviegoers still show out for their movies. I do feel general interest and casual fan chatter will pick up with Quantumania, as the MCU starts kicking into gear with more story continuity and the pieces introduced in Phase Four start paying off. And perhaps delaying some projects and spreading out others will allow general fans to catch up on Disney+. It is a LOT of content.

Summing up, I think the novelty and fad of the expanded universe thing has toned itself down, and now it's just a regular part of our moviegoing landscape. One thing I'm sure of, super-hero comic book movies are here to stay, and may even be considered their own movie genre now.