PBA galleries auctioneers new collection 40000+ Every DC 9 9

[tth2]

On 7/14/2023 at 1:24 AM, Ian_Levine said:

The owner is not the kind of man to be influenced in any way. He has told me to keep out of it, and for various private reasons, I dare not go against him. DARE not.

Is his last name Kray or something?

[tth2]

On 7/14/2023 at 11:56 AM, sfcityduck said:

Everyone on this site now knows about PBA.  If you are looking for low to mid-grade DCs you are going to find PBA. PCH and EC collectors I'm sure have PBA on their radar.  

The big winner here is PBA. I don't think the seller or Heritage are losers.  I just don't think this collection is a good fit for Heritage.

I think the big winners will be people in this thread who are now aware of the auction and will likely find bargains.  

[buttock]

On 7/13/2023 at 9:50 PM, sfcityduck said:

The volumes almost broke CGC and Heritage.  5,000 books dominated both venues for a year.  

It was worth it to Heritage because they were high grade.

Are 40,000 low to mid-grade DCs worth tying up your auction house for?  

Not for Heritage. They have bigger fish to fry.  Plus, they have other priorities.

You should ask CGC how many books they grade in a day.  This is a drop in the bucket.  You're just absolutely wrong on this.  

[sfcityduck]

On 7/14/2023 at 7:29 AM, buttock said:

You should ask CGC how many books they grade in a day.  This is a drop in the bucket.  You're just absolutely wrong on this.  

I have been wrong before. No need to be coy.  You can tell me. I think the problem with promise was more CCS than CGC though.  I would love to see a chart of TATs for CGC and CCS for the past five years. 

[sfcityduck]

On 7/14/2023 at 7:26 AM, tth2 said:

I think the big winners will be people in this thread who are now aware of the auction and will likely find bargains.  

Could be.  But PBA is on Liveauctioneers so anyone who searches comics on that site will find PBA also. 

[sfcityduck]

On 7/14/2023 at 7:13 AM, tth2 said:

Especially if most of the books are going to be sold raw.  People are already skeptical of Heritage's and CC's grading, I can't even imagine how skeptical they'll be of the grading of an auction house with very little history in comics, and that's before getting into their ability to detect restoration. 

Skepticism is a product of experience. My own experience with PBA was positive with regard to a raw Cosmic Aeroplane.. Of course they are getting the biggest books graded.
 

I admire the restraint being shown by PBA affiliated Boardies in not taking offense at concerns like this being stated. I think it is good to let folks talk out stuff like this and share info. I have not seen any threads on this site about complaints regarding PBA, so my assumption is that says something positive.

[buttock]

On 7/14/2023 at 8:48 AM, sfcityduck said:

I have been wrong before. No need to be coy.  You can tell me. I think the problem with promise was more CCS than CGC though.  I would love to see a chart of TATs for CGC and CCS for the past five years. 

I did tell you you were wrong, I'm not sure where any coyness comes through there.  Mark told me recently how many books they grade a day, and it was a staggering number.  I don't recall it exactly, but 5000 books wouldn't take them long at all.  My point, along with that of several others, is that 5000 books didn't register as more than a blip for CGC, and although being a little bit more work for Heritage, was probably a slight increase in workflow that they were more than happy to have.  A far cry from nearly breaking them.  

[sfcityduck]

On 7/14/2023 at 8:11 AM, buttock said:

I did tell you you were wrong, I'm not sure where any coyness comes through there.  Mark told me recently how many books they grade a day, and it was a staggering number.  I don't recall it exactly, but 5000 books wouldn't take them long at all.  My point, along with that of several others, is that 5000 books didn't register as more than a blip for CGC, and although being a little bit more work for Heritage, was probably a slight increase in workflow that they were more than happy to have.  A far cry from nearly breaking them.  

You did not tell me how many books cgc and ccs process in a day.  
 

I am not attacking Heritage or cgc/ccs. I am talking about capacity.  It is not unlimited.  And their business model seems to be quite a bit different than that of eBay - e.g. not a high volume low dollar book model. So I am not of the belief that Ian’s collection is the best fit for Heritage. If I am Heritage and I had to choose between Ian’s 40,000 books and Bangzoom’s 2,000 Gilchrist books I am going with BangZoom because I am sure the price per auction lot unit is higher and the effort per auction lot unit is lower.

Question: Who does Heritage’s grading and resto check for raw books and how long does that take?

Edited July 14, 2023 by sfcityduck

[adamstrange]

On 7/14/2023 at 12:47 AM, sfcityduck said:

Well, counselor, anecdotal evidence is evidence. And from having lived through that time, it seemed that CGC, and CCS because many Promise books went through pressing, were getting a preference in the que, which makes perfect sense given the imperative to meet Heritage's auction schedule. We saw TATs for CGC and CCS lengthen, and we saw Heritage auctions dominated by Promise books. I also heard, again anecdotally, that the financial threshold to make it into a Signature Auction increased due to the Promise Collection - which again makes business sense. 

But the notion that Heritage has unlimited comic auctioning capacity does not make business sense to me. Every business want to increase its per unit profits because there is always a limit on units, and that is as true for Heritage as anyone else. 

None of your anecdotes is evidence of "The volumes almost broke CGC and Heritage"

CGC turnaround times have been a Board complaint going back at least a decade.  The Promise volume is small relative to their capacity, so attributing CGC TAT problems to the Promise Collection is conjecture from a party without direct knowledge.

Heritage is a large company and comics are only 15% or less of their business.  The fact that they raised limits in the Sig Auction is a healthy sign, as they offer weekly and specialty auctions where they obtain, sadly for this collector, startling results.  They have a robust technology platform and large group of employees on which to draw to support the increased growth and I'm sure they would be happy to run even more auctions and more lots than they do today.

[sfcityduck]

On 7/14/2023 at 8:11 AM, buttock said:

My point, along with that of several others, is that 5000 books didn't register as more than a blip for CGC, and although being a little bit more work for Heritage, was probably a slight increase in workflow that they were more than happy to have.  A far cry from nearly breaking them.  

My comment about “breaking them” was really more of an expression about the impact on cgc/ccs than anything else.  I agree that Heritage can absorb 5,000 books over a multi-Year period as they just did. I am sure pacing was driven in large part by cgc/ccs. We certainly heard anecdotes on this site about the work the collection created. But 5,000 is a lot less than 40,000 where the work for Heritage would be much greater for less payoff. So if I am Heritage I lose no sleep over this collection going elsewhere.

This is sort of a pointless discussion because Heritage did not get the collection.  PBA did. So now we will see how they do and what impact it has on them. 

[buttock]

On 7/14/2023 at 9:21 AM, sfcityduck said:

You did not tell me how many books cgc and ccs process in a day.  

Gotcha, that wasn't coyness, it was not wanting to make an incorrect assumption or statement.  I know it's a large number, but rather than throw around speculation...

On 7/14/2023 at 9:21 AM, sfcityduck said:

I am not attacking Heritage or cgc/ccs. I am talking about capacity.  It is not unlimited.  And their business model seems to be quite a bit different than that of eBay - e.g. not a high volume low dollar book model. So I am not of the belief that Ian’s collection is the best fit for Heritage. If I am Heritage and I had to choose between Ian’s 40,000 books and Bangzoom’s 2,000 Gilchrist books I am going with BangZoom because I am sure the price per auction lot unit is higher and the effort per auction lot unit is lower.

Fair, but that still is a very different thing than "breaking" them. 

On 7/14/2023 at 9:21 AM, sfcityduck said:

Question: Who does Heritage’s grading and resto check for raw books and how long does that take?

I don't know.  And similar to my statement about CGC, I won't speak for them.  That would be a good question for you to ask them to get a better understanding of this process.  

On 7/14/2023 at 9:33 AM, sfcityduck said:

My comment about “breaking them” was really more of an expression about the impact on cgc/ccs than anything else.  I agree that Heritage can absorb 5,000 books over a multi-Year period as they just did. I am sure pacing was driven in large part by cgc/ccs. We certainly heard anecdotes on this site about the work the collection created. But 5,000 is a lot less than 40,000 where the work for Heritage would be much greater for less payoff. So if I am Heritage I lose no sleep over this collection going elsewhere.

I'm guessing you aren't a business owner?  There's a fixed cost to running your business, and once you meet that cost, everything else is profit.  You're already paying people to find, grade, document, list, scan, etc.  Whether you have 10 books or 40,000 books, that cost is the same.  So better to sell 40,000 books.  I guarantee you every auction house would want this collection.  

[sfcityduck]

On 7/14/2023 at 8:33 AM, adamstrange said:

 

CGC turnaround times have been a Board complaint going back at least a decade.  The Promise volume is small relative to their capacity, so attributing CGC TAT problems to the Promise Collection is conjecture from a party without direct knowledge.

Heritage is a large company and comics are only 15% or less of their business.  The fact that they raised limits in the Sig Auction is a healthy sign, as they offer weekly and specialty auctions where they obtain, sadly for this collector, startling results.  They have a robust technology platform and large group of employees on which to draw to support the increased growth and I'm sure they would be happy to run even more auctions and more lots than they do today.

TAT complaints evidence, in fact establish, capacity limits at cgc/ccs. That TATs increased during the Promise infusion is evidence it helped further overtax capacity.

You and I agree that Heritage has other priorities than comics. I have said that repeatedly on this thread. That Heritage is increasing limits for Sig auctions shows they are not seeking a pure volume business model like an eBay or others. Quality matters to their business model. They do not have unlimited auction capacity. Limits are imposed by processing receipt capacity, grading capacity, listing capacity, auction capacity, shipping capacity etc.  

Which is why I lose no sleep if I am Heritage over not getting the 40,000 books Ian put together. 

no handwringing or defense of Heritage is really necessary.

[sfcityduck]

On 7/14/2023 at 8:41 AM, buttock said:

 

I'm guessing you aren't a business owner?  There's a fixed cost to running your business, and once you meet that cost, everything else is profit.  You're already paying people to find, grade, document, list, scan, etc.  Whether you have 10 books or 40,000 books, that cost is the same.  So better to sell 40,000 books.  I guarantee you every auction house would want this collection.  

I thought you did not like assumptions?  But I am not a small business owner.  Which does not equate to ignorance about business.

A business only has a fixed cost up to a fixed capacity. If you own an auto repair shop with two full-time mechanics on payroll your costs are fixed up to 80 hours a week of employee time. After that you pay OT or you find more mechanics. You may also need to find a bigger garage. 

Heritage is not a small business. It has many more limits on its capacity.

Growth is not without risk. If you build up to increase capacity you are taking on fixed costs which might not be sustainable if volume needs decrease. That problem has taken down a lot of businesses. 

One option for a business like Heritage which is not a retailer is to increase per unit profits instead of taking on a greater capacity of work.  Heritage will make more money auctioning 1,000 lots at an average value of $5,000 per lot than twice that at $2,500 per lot. Hence the increase in Sig auction value limits for lots they will accept.

[october]

On 7/14/2023 at 10:46 AM, sfcityduck said:

 

Which is why I lose no sleep if I am Heritage over not getting the 40,000 books Ian put together. 

 

No offense, but thinking that Heritage wouldn't want a collection of every DC comic ever made, including hundreds of keys, uber-rare early issues, full early runs of Action, Detective, Batman, WW, Superman, etc....is a pretty strange take. It's a great collection for PR purposes, contains a bunch of high profile, rarely seen books, and wouldn't require that much effort to sell through if you break it into longbox runs on the post-60's filler. 

Hell, I could handle that collection in terms of volume, I've done it before and I am just shy of Heritage's level in terms of operational efficiency literally one man with a full time job working out of the bonus room of his house on comics during my spare time.  

[buttock]

On 7/14/2023 at 10:06 AM, sfcityduck said:

I thought you did not like assumptions?  But I am not a small business owner.  Which does not equate to ignorance about business.

A business only has a fixed cost up to a fixed capacity. If you own an auto repair shop with two full-time mechanics on payroll your costs are fixed up to 80 hours a week of employee time. After that you pay OT or you find more mechanics. You may also need to find a bigger garage. 

Heritage is not a small business. It has many more limits on its capacity.

Growth is not without risk. If you build up to increase capacity you are taking on fixed costs which might not be sustainable if volume needs decrease. That problem has taken down a lot of businesses. 

One option for a business like Heritage which is not a retailer is to increase per unit profits instead of taking on a greater capacity of work.  Heritage will make more money auctioning 1,000 lots at an average value of $5,000 per lot than twice that at $2,500 per lot. Hence the increase in Sig auction value limits for lots they will accept.

*sigh*

[Dr. Love]

it's more interesting to me to analyze the decision from the seller's side - than whether HA would want the goods.  For of course they would.

Why PBA?  

highest (on paper) net return?  would they agree to a 7.5% commission on this one?  I'm thinking yes.  Even less maybe to get on the playing field in a more meaningful way?

minimum opening bids set.  That's a non starter for HA.  But it's PBA's business model - Hake's too.  That might appeal to a seller looking at huge runs who sees it as desirable to potentially transfer the risk of giving away thousands and thousands of books for pennies.  PBA's last auction in March had 335 lots - and 31 went unsold.  The sell through on the DC collection might come in a staggering low 60% when all is said and done.  Good move for the seller - or bad?

PBA has the best grading breakdown on raw books.  No one even comes close. Whether it's accurate or not, who knows.  But Ivan, or somebody, grinds in the hours and lays it out for the buyer.  If I've got big runs, that's attractive to me a a seller.  Along the same lines, they're the only house that lays out a full on front cover pic of a run.  HA has always been incredibly and woefully inadequate in this area.  They could set the high bar as they do for the single images - but they won't.  PBA does.  For huge runs, this is a deal breaker, especially if I'm asking the house to set a minimum bid for those runs as well. 

 

See below.

 

Description:

#38: Fair/Good (1.5). Cover detached, staple rust, corner chip, moderate spine roll, centerfold loose. Cream to off-white pages. Hanging cover, bondage panels.

#47: Fair/Good- (1.5). Spine roll, 2" spine split, ragged right edge, soiling to back cover, half of one page missing. Cream to off-white pages.

#50: Good- (1.8). Spine roll, staple rust, cover loose at bottom staple, tape to spine, a few small chips and tears, centerfold loose. Cream to off-white pages.

#52: VG (4.0). Spine roll, mild spine stress, corner crease, a few nicks and short tears. Cream to off-white pages. Evans art.

#55: VG- (3.5). Spine roll, staple pull, staple rust, creases, edge nicks, ink marks to front cover. Cream to off-white pages.

Covers: Joe Doolin, Bob Lubbers, Ed Waldman?, Gus Schrotter? Art: Bob Lubbers, John Celardo, Charles Sultan, Walter Palais, Lily Renée?, Jerry Grandenetti, Enrico Bagnoli, George Evans, Jack Kamen?, others.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Dr. Love

[sfcityduck]

On 7/14/2023 at 9:41 AM, Dr. Love said:

it's more interesting to me to analyze the decision from the seller's side - than whether HA would want the goods.  For of course they would.

Why PBA?  

highest (on paper) net return?  would they agree to a 7.5% commission on this one?  I'm thinking yes.  Even less maybe to get on the playing field in a more meaningful way?

minimum opening bids set.  That's a non starter for HA.  But it's PBA's business model - Hake's too.  That might appeal to a seller looking at huge runs who sees it as desirable to potentially transfer the risk of giving away thousands and thousands of books for pennies.  PBA's last auction in March had 335 lots - and 31 went unsold.  The sell through on the DC collection might come in a staggering low 60% when all is said and done.  Good move for the seller - or bad?

PBA has the best grading breakdown on raw books.  No one even comes close. Whether it's accurate or not, who knows.  But Ivan, or somebody, grinds in the hours and lays it out for the buyer.  If I've got big runs, that's attractive to me a a seller.  Along the same lines, they're the only house that lays out a full on front cover pic of a run.  HA has always been incredibly and woefully inadequate in this area.  They could set the high bar as they do for the single images - but they won't.  PBA does.  For huge runs, this is a deal breaker, especially if I'm asking the house to set a minimum bid for those runs as well. 

 

I completely agree that "Why PBA" is the interesting question.  The handwringing for Heritage is what caused a shift in the discussion. My answer to your question was earlier in the thread:

On 7/13/2023 at 8:58 AM, sfcityduck said:

I can think of a lot of reasons:

• Heritage has many other priorities whereas PBA will likely make this a main focus;

• Many books are lower grade and PBA has been doing a good job on lower grade book auctions so far;

• They might like the people at PBA;

• PBA may have a much better cost structure;

• The advantages of selling through Heritage mainly apply to high priced and high grade books which most of this collection will not be;

• Heritage might have wanted to cherry pick;

etc. add your own.

 

[sfcityduck]

On 7/14/2023 at 9:41 AM, Dr. Love said:

PBA's last auction in March had 335 lots - and 31 went unsold.  The sell through on the DC collection might come in a staggering low 60% when all is said and done.  Good move for the seller - or bad?

 

Great point about unsold lots, but 31 unsold out of 335 is less than 10% and any convention dealer would be ecstatic with a 90%+ sell rate above their minimum price, right? Not sure how you get to 60%.

Of course, unsold lots could be repriced and re-listed (a common occurrence by auction houses using Liveauctioneers).

[sfcityduck]

On 7/14/2023 at 9:12 AM, october said:

No offense, but thinking that Heritage wouldn't want a collection of every DC comic ever made, including hundreds of keys, uber-rare early issues, full early runs of Action, Detective, Batman, WW, Superman, etc....is a pretty strange take. It's a great collection for PR purposes, contains a bunch of high profile, rarely seen books, and wouldn't require that much effort to sell through if you break it into longbox runs on the post-60's filler. 

Hell, I could handle that collection in terms of volume, I've done it before and I am just shy of Heritage's level in terms of operational efficiency literally one man with a full time job working out of the bonus room of his house on comics during my spare time.  

It may be a strange take, but I deal with auctioneers in other realms who only want to sell the "good stuff."  I agree any comic dealer would take all 40,000 books. But all dealers, including Metro, are happy to deal in volumes and carry inventory. Auction houses often have a different view. The top five by sales are Christie's, Sotheby's, Phillips, Bonhams, and Heritage. The first four were founded in the 1700s. Heritage in 1976. It has made its meteoric rise by increasingly getting the best stuff in its areas of focus.

 

[Bronty]

On 7/14/2023 at 2:01 PM, sfcityduck said:

It may be a strange take, but I deal with auctioneers in other realms who only want to sell the "good stuff."  I agree any comic dealer would take all 40,000 books. But all dealers, including Metro, are happy to deal in volumes and carry inventory. Auction houses often have a different view. The top five by sales are Christie's, Sotheby's, Phillips, Bonhams, and Heritage. The first four were founded in the 1700s. Heritage in 1976. It has made its meteoric rise by increasingly getting the best stuff in its areas of focus.

 

The only consideration I've ever come up against with heritage is that the aggregate consignment must have a certain value (for consignment acceptance and/or to meet certain fee structure requirements).    They are MORE than happy to take a number of low value lots if the overall consignment is significant.   

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Bronty