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ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC
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Started by spidermanbeyond,

9,028 posts in this topic

VintageComics

VintageComics

Posted
Posted
On 12/19/2023 at 11:07 PM, ThothAmon said:

Truthfully I have no idea how many iterations of inner wells CGC has had. 

I do.

If you know so little, why are you speaking so much Blarney? :D

On 12/19/2023 at 11:05 PM, sledgehammer said:

They had just graded the book already on June 23rd, 2023.

What the hell makes you so sure that they opened the inner well later this year, just to add a notation to the label that it was an MJ insert?

Even if they did, the people doing it wouldn't have been graders, right??

Why would they be looking at that recent of a book, encapsulated per the rules for unlimited value reholders, to check for page count, restoration or anything else?

They very easily could have just said just add the MJ notation.

But you're positive. You know for certain.

It's more reasonable to believe that they inspected the book to make sure the MJ insert was in there than that they trusted the word of a random submitter and peeked through the edges.

Why?

Because people crack their books out ALL THE TIME, whether for personal collection, for Signature Series opportunities, or just to resub for the heck of it (hey, I want a shiny new holder!), so CGC would want to cover their butts and make sure they know what's inside before labelling it. 

That you even went there is mind boggling. Just wow. 

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Lightning55

Lightning55

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Posted
On 12/19/2023 at 10:00 PM, comicwiz said:

I may be in the minority saying this, but I would sooner believe this person has figured out a manner of achieving an adhesion or bond that may mimic a sonic weld, because the idea of him having that kind of access to tooling, specifically to be able to sonic seal the hard case slab product CGC uses is something I just can't be convinced is possible. 

Oh, it's possible. 

Way back in 2016, I sold about 50k comics to a re-packager.  Nothing to do with his re-packaging business, but he gave me a tour of the warehouse and happened to point out his sonic welder.  He was no millionaire, but he had one.  I asked him if it could un-seal as well as seal.  He said, "Yes it can, but I really can't tell you any more than that.". And we moved on.

He was also into card product, buying multiple tractor trailer lots when possible.  And the comics....I never saw so many long boxes stacked to the ceiling of a 14' high warehouse, like an acre or two of warehouse. Crazy.

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sledgehammer

sledgehammer

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Posted
On 12/19/2023 at 10:26 PM, VintageComics said:

 

It's more reasonable to believe that they inspected the book to make sure the MJ insert was in there than that they trusted the word of a random submitter and peeked through the edges.

Why?

Because people crack their books out ALL THE TIME, whether for personal collection, for Signature Series opportunities, or just to resub for the heck of it (hey, I want a shiny new holder!), so CGC would want to cover their butts and make sure they know what's inside before labelling it. 

That you even went there is mind boggling. Just wow. 

So I send an encapsulated book for a custom label, not an inner well with a label, with a note that says I think you missed the MJ label, and your thought is they risk damaging my $15,000 book, to check if the MJ insert that they can see is there, is actually there. 

Ok, fine.

Why does CGC require that any custom label re holders be fully encapsulated?

What aren't they doing that they charge the grading fees for otherwise?

 "Wow" me.

 

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Comics

Comics

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On 12/17/2023 at 11:35 AM, Stefan_W said:

This is the most helpful change CGC has made in a long time. I use these photos all of the time especially when buying. Turning to the topic of this thread, these photos should help to prevent a lot of shenanigans down the road - although, of course, you cant force people to refer to them.  

Maybe CGC is making this change BECAUSE they know there is a loophole? Or two?

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Comics

Comics

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On 12/19/2023 at 10:16 PM, Comics said:

Maybe CGC is making this change BECAUSE they know there is a loophole? Or two?

I find the "quality control is hard - give them a break" comments odd. This is what they do. They encapsulate and verify Billions of dollars worth of collectibles. Their quality control should be JUST UNDER what NASA's is. Especially if we find there is a lax QC system in place and someone realized this and decided to Game it. Repeatedly. Class Action lawsuits have been started for much less than this. At the very least, what is to stop me from requesting a FREE re-evaluation of all my slabs to make sure they are 'right'? This is a big, big problem. In certification - reputation is everything.

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mr_highgrade

mr_highgrade

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On 12/19/2023 at 8:58 PM, VintageComics said:

As someone who can grade better than 99.9% of the people out there, and I'd rival my grading skills against anybody except a CGC grader, I have a very hard time believing they'd blindly put a 9.2/9.4 looking book into a CGC holder. The differences are quite literally glaring. 

It's possible, but I just find it hard to believe. 

Roy your grading skills are exceptional and you're probably better than most the CGC graders they've hired since the new company took over. Also, their QC is a joke, trust me.  I can personally tell you horror stories. I hate stating this, because there are still a few good guys left from the old regime. 

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MyNameIsLegion

MyNameIsLegion

Posted
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On 12/20/2023 at 12:29 AM, Comics said:

I find the "quality control is hard - give them a break" comments odd. This is what they do. They encapsulate and verify Billions of dollars worth of collectibles. Their quality control should be JUST UNDER what NASA's is. Especially if we find there is a lax QC system in place and someone realized this and decided to Game it. Repeatedly. Class Action lawsuits have been started for much less than this. At the very least, what is to stop me from requesting a FREE re-evaluation of all my slabs to make sure they are 'right'? This is a big, big problem. In certification - reputation is everything.

Is what CGC charges regarded as a product or a service? Hard to class action a service as defective. I think what most people envision in their heads about CGC's grading and slabbing process is a lot more perfect and precise than reality.  Manufacturing Processes and their resultant quality control systems and quality management systems are far more OTJ and made-up with an eye more towards cost, time, & material.  In an unregulated production environment where you aren't making Food, Drugs, Medical Devices, or any hard-goods with specific products claims that aren't subject to certification and inspection you can pretty much do what you want provided worker safety isn't compromised. 

I doubt many forms of reholdering and resubmission for custom labels go through much more than 1-2 people in a shift opening the mail, reading the order, and triaging which bucket the job goes in. If the order is for something other than grading and pressing it's skipping a lot of steps, and this is by design.  Custom label request?  Move it along, reholder due to damage? Quick triage where the person was given guidance to bucket the level of damage. 3 point scale, 5 point scale whatever. Scuffed and scratched? Most go right to the same pile to get a custom label, maybe a few that look really cracked, full blown shaken baby syndrome go to the the pre-graders, and if the pre-graders kick it back, off it goes. A full blown re-grade is a last resort. They lose money on the time it takes, and there's little upside to all parties if they find it to be a lower grade, let's be honest about this. If they kept lowering the grade on reholders & custom labels no one would do it, and it's easy money. Any change in grade is more injurious to their reputation if it's not in the customers favor. Whoever is triaging the submissions is likely trained to keep that to a minimum.

the slabs themselves and all the materials used: all of it can be faked, manipulated, replicated, don't doubt that for a second.  How often does it happen? Probably less than we think, but more than we know. IF someone has access to the right equipment and can be cost effective doing it, game on. However, those things probably don't scale well and not raise a red flag. The only thing truly unique that CGC provides is a serial number. That is all.  

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Sigur Ros

Sigur Ros

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Posted (edited)
On 12/19/2023 at 10:32 PM, VintageComics said:

 

See what I mean, dork?

He's literally saying that they didn't even open the inner holder to inspect if the MJ insert was there. :makepoint:

ffs...lol

First you said holder, now you change it to inner holder.  Where are the goalposts?

The holder is the plastic slab. 

The inner sleeve, some call a "well", is not the holder.  Why would anyone think they cut the book out of the inner sleeve without reassessing the book, seeing all those problems, and saying "yep, still a 9.8!"  Unless you're saying CGC really sucks.   Are you?  'Cuz that's what it sounds like you're saying.  If so, just say it.

Anyway, while you're calling names, I'll just say it again, no one believes they didn't open the holder.

 

 

 

Edited by Sigur Ros
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Gaard

Gaard

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On 12/19/2023 at 10:01 PM, MAR1979 said:

They will do Nothing.

They also do not care about their perception.  Their parent company is simply squeezing an orange, when the juice being to slow to a trickle they will simply toss it in the trash (sell it off).

 

Can't come soon enough.

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MyNameIsLegion

MyNameIsLegion

Posted
Posted
On 12/20/2023 at 4:05 AM, Gaard said:

Has the seller of these books been asked to come here and explain what's going on?

we have to get to a minimum of 25 pages of rampant speculation for that to even be considered a sensible idea. It's only Wednesday for chrissakes! :yeehaw:

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sledgehammer

sledgehammer

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 12/20/2023 at 3:38 AM, Sigur Ros said:

The inner sleeve, some call a "well", is not the holder.  Why would anyone think they cut the book out of the inner sleeve without reassessing the book, seeing all those problems, and saying "yep, still a 9.8!"  Unless you're saying CGC really sucks.   Are you?  'Cuz that's what it sounds like you're saying.  If so, just say it.

Anyway, while you're calling names, I'll just say it again, no one believes they didn't open the holder.

lol

That;s exactly what he's saying.

"Why would CGC possibly think that their fully encapsulated comic book, from this last June 23rd, actually still has the inner sleeve in it that they put in there!?!?"  

lol

"Open up that inner sleeve, so we can get a good look at that MJ insert that we can already see in there!!"

Why don't they have to open the inner sleeve up, to make sure the book in there now has all its pages? Check it again for restoration? Hey, it could be a minor color touch 9.8.

"We have zero faith in the credibility of this slab we just created 4 months ago. Are you nuts??"

If that is the S.O. Procedure, and I don't work there to know, or even care, they still would have seen a perfectly fine MJ insert.

We already know that. It was probably a lesser grade, 9.4.

That doesn't mean some grunt doing re holders isn't going to be lazy, or going to have Roy's eye to look it over for reasons why the comic book in the slab is not a 9.8.

Just for a new custom label, on a 4 month old fully encapsulated slab.

 

Edited by sledgehammer
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sledgehammer

sledgehammer

Posted
Posted (edited)

There's only one way the scammer can sell TWO books.

Convince CGC to give him a new custom label slab on his slightly lower graded copy ( :censored: it could even be a 9.6!! There's profit in that if you can control your greed) and

Send the original 9.8 that was in that slab in for a new slab.

One of scamboy's NM 98 listings was for a 9.6, so maybe his plan got burned, and one book was downgraded.

Whatever, CGC is handling the books BECAUSE THEY SCANNED THEM IN.

:facepalm:

Edited by sledgehammer
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comicwiz

comicwiz

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 12/19/2023 at 11:35 PM, Lightning55 said:

Oh, it's possible. 

Way back in 2016, I sold about 50k comics to a re-packager.  Nothing to do with his re-packaging business, but he gave me a tour of the warehouse and happened to point out his sonic welder.  He was no millionaire, but he had one.  I asked him if it could un-seal as well as seal.  He said, "Yes it can, but I really can't tell you any more than that.". And we moved on.

He was also into card product, buying multiple tractor trailer lots when possible.  And the comics....I never saw so many long boxes stacked to the ceiling of a 14' high warehouse, like an acre or two of warehouse. Crazy.

Not saying what you saw didn't happen, but there's a big difference between what is possible and what is likely.

Reality is that even if the guy was a masterclass tool & die and/or fabricator, and could somehow replicate the tooling and machinery CGC has been using to seal wells and hard outers, that there is a steeped requirement to understand all aspects of how to seal using this equipment to achieve the most convincing methods.

What we are more likely to see with a hypothetical "replicator" achieving the same results are some signs and tells that would indicate it isn't exactly right or perfect. This happens with all manner of packaging, from the nesting equipment to seal toys, where the very slightest alteration of time, weight, pressure can cause an overexposure that is evident in the final result.

It's not to say that CGC hasn't themselves made mistakes, I once had to reholder a IH 181 and 35 cent IF 14 which showed signs of inner well melt from overexposure during the sealing process. What is key in those situations is having an eye for catching that sort of deviation from the standard.

It's one thing to say you can do it, and actually can pull it off, in a convincing manner. The issue however is that when someone allegedly has submitted several that have successfully at least had a new label generated, then it's either a case of them exploiting something in the process, the methods are convincing, the people handling these reholders aren't trained to have an eye to sniff out aberrations, or a combination of all these things.

When one of the biggest scandals happened in the vintage Star Wars collecting hobby, Toy Toni had began selling his modern seal MOC's to collectors, but you could see an evolution of his work getting better, and eventually he got it convincing enough that he fooled AFA with them. Hindsight is 20/20 in cases like this. That sort of ramp-up of "convincing factor" can sometimes take years to get right, and maybe we caught it at the cycle where this person has improved their deception well enough, it's difficult to say. The silver lining here is someone caught on to it.

Edited by comicwiz
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