ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[VintageComics]

On 12/20/2023 at 4:38 AM, Sigur Ros said:

First you said holder, now you change it to inner holder.  Where are the goalposts?

The holder is the plastic slab. 

The inner sleeve, some call a "well", is not the holder.  Why would anyone think they cut the book out of the inner sleeve without reassessing the book, seeing all those problems, and saying "yep, still a 9.8!"  Unless you're saying CGC really sucks.   Are you?  'Cuz that's what it sounds like you're saying.  If so, just say it.

Anyway, while you're calling names, I'll just say it again, no one believes they didn't open the holder.

We've been calling them inner and out holders for 20 years on here. 

Sledgehammer is saying they don't open the inner holder when checking for MJ inserts. This is what I am disagreeing with. 

Dork is a common joke around here. Relax. 

[VintageComics]

On 12/20/2023 at 5:59 AM, sledgehammer said:

On 12/20/2023 at 4:38 AM, Sigur Ros said:

The inner sleeve, some call a "well", is not the holder.  Why would anyone think they cut the book out of the inner sleeve without reassessing the book, seeing all those problems, and saying "yep, still a 9.8!"  Unless you're saying CGC really sucks.   Are you?  'Cuz that's what it sounds like you're saying.  If so, just say it.

Anyway, while you're calling names, I'll just say it again, no one believes they didn't open the holder.

That;s exactly what he's saying.

"Why would CGC possibly think that their fully encapsulated comic book, from this last June 23rd, actually still has the inner sleeve in it that they put in there!?!?"  

"Open up that inner sleeve, so we can get a good look at that MJ insert that we can already see in there!!"

Why don't they have to open the inner sleeve up, to make sure the book in there now has all its pages? Check it again for restoration? Hey, it could be a minor color touch 9.8.

"We have zero faith in the credibility of this slab we just created 4 months ago. Are you nuts??"

If that is the S.O. Procedure, and I don't work there to know, or even care, they still would have seen a perfectly fine MJ insert.

We already know that. It was probably a lesser grade, 9.4.

That doesn't mean some grunt doing re holders isn't going to be lazy, or going to have Roy's eye to look it over for reasons why the comic book in the slab is not a 9.8.

Just for a new custom label, on a 4 month old fully encapsulated slab.

Listen, you two have had a hate on me for some time now and it's affecting your ability to think clearly. A little benefit of the doubt in a public conversation goes a long way. 

You're changing the discussion we were having.

The entire reason the book was sent in was to verify the MJ insert. 

What I said was, that it's far more reasonable to believe that they opened the inner holder / well / whatever-you-want-to-call-it to make sure those were MJ inserts in there.

YOU stated that they just kept the book sealed in the inner holder, peeked at it from the top and resealed it into a new outer holder. 

I already explained why I didn't think they'd take your route. 

You two are just clouding the discussion at this point with personal nonsense. 

Edited December 20, 2023 by VintageComics

[mephistopheles]

On 12/20/2023 at 10:32 AM, VintageComics said:

which was that they just kept the book sealed in the inner holder, peeked at it from the top and resealed it into a new outer holder. 

That seems to be the most plausible explanation imho. It could be laziness at CGC QA or a loop hole in the custom label process. There is just no way someone would look at that book and think it's a 9.8.

[VintageComics]

On 12/20/2023 at 9:40 AM, mephistopheles said:

On 12/20/2023 at 9:32 AM, VintageComics said:

which was that they just kept the book sealed in the inner holder, peeked at it from the top and resealed it into a new outer holder. 

That seems to be the most plausible explanation imho. It could be laziness at CGC QA or a loop hole in the custom label process. There is just no way someone would look at that book and think it's a 9.8.

1st, I don't want to be on record as stating this, even though you quoted me. I was simply responding to someone else who believes this.

2nd, the NM #98 did NOT get a new custom label so that disproves the theory that it's a loophole in the custom label process. 

Edited December 20, 2023 by VintageComics

[Silver Surfer]

Waiting for an announcement that there will be a pause in reholdering. Not sure how they are going to deal with this for any existing inventory that needs to be processed. 

[mephistopheles]

On 12/20/2023 at 10:45 AM, VintageComics said:

1st, I don't want to be on record as stating this, even though you quoted me. I was simply responding to someone else who believes this.

2nd, the NM #98 did NOT get a new custom label so that disproves the theory that it's a loophole in the custom label process. 

Then it's even worse. It's a general failure in their QA.

[trademarkcomics]

I've been buying/selling MJ insert copies for years now. I will say there is a way to verify some books(not all) as MJ insert copies without looking at the inside of the book. Obviously there is simply seeing the insert is there by looking at the edges, but there is also another way to make sure the insert wasn't simply thrown into a regular copy. As I have pointed out on the MJI thread here multiple times. If I was able to figure this out, I would have to assume a company whose sole purpose is to grade and verify comics could have figured this out as well. 

 

Just my ...

[Sigur Ros]

On 12/20/2023 at 9:32 AM, VintageComics said:

Listen, you two have had a hate on me for some time now 

I have no feeling toward you at all.

You're not a victim.

 

On 12/20/2023 at 9:32 AM, VintageComics said:

YOU stated that they just kept the book sealed in the inner holder, peeked at it from the top and resealed it into a new outer holder

He may be right.  Why should we assume otherwise?

Here are 10 years worth of reasons to believe it's exactly what they did.

https://boards.cgccomics.com/topic/350613-where-in-the-world-was-the-quality-control-at-cgc/#comments

[mephistopheles]

On 12/20/2023 at 10:50 AM, Silver Surfer said:

Waiting for an announcement that there will be a pause in reholdering. Not sure how they are going to deal with this for any existing inventory that needs to be processed. 

The existing inventory waiting to be reholdered is the least of their worries. It will require QA to do their damn job and inspect the books. What is more concerning is how many scam books got through reholdering without scrutiny.

[trademarkcomics]

On 12/20/2023 at 6:54 AM, trademarkcomics said:

I've been buying/selling MJ insert copies for years now. I will say there is a way to verify some books(not all) as MJ insert copies without looking at the inside of the book. Obviously there is simply seeing the insert is there by looking at the edges, but there is also another way to make sure the insert wasn't simply thrown into a regular copy. As I have pointed out on the MJI thread here multiple times. If I was able to figure this out, I would have to assume a company whose sole purpose is to grade and verify comics could have figured this out as well. 

 

Just my ...

By this method, I can say at most of the MJI books this seller has been recently selling are legit MJI copies...just not necessarily legit 9.6/9.8 grades(the ASM 252 is laughable). So I think they are inserting actual MJI variants into the regular 9.8 copy holders, resealing them, then sending them off as MEs(Mechanical Errors).

[WolverineX]

On 12/20/2023 at 9:54 AM, trademarkcomics said:

I've been buying/selling MJ insert copies for years now. I will say there is a way to verify some books(not all) as MJ insert copies without looking at the inside of the book. Obviously there is simply seeing the insert is there by looking at the edges, but there is also another way to make sure the insert wasn't simply thrown into a regular copy. As I have pointed out on the MJI thread here multiple times. If I was able to figure this out, I would have to assume a company whose sole purpose is to grade and verify comics could have figured this out as well. 

 

Just my ...

are 9.8s really 15k books?

[comicwiz]

One of the things that most here won't know, and that includes long-time boardies with short memories, is that many, many moons ago, Danny Dupchak posted instructions on how to use a wedge to pry the outer case open wide enough to allow you to remove the inner well. That post was deleted so fast that this is another reason people here that are still members might not even recall this happened. This was in the older 4-post style of sealing the outer holder of the slab. The inner well in those days also had a seam seperating the top edge and the pocket for the label. And an opening at the top of the inner well to reach in and pull out the label. There also used to be some transfer of ink or label when you tried to remove the label out of it that would leave residue, but that wasn't always the case.

Now that we are looking at a situaiton where someone has either exploited a process in reholdering, or has figured out a way to do what Dupchak was able to do a long time ago, with the new slab design, I think it's important for a new thread to perhaps be started, showing there are multiple examples. Also because of the derailing going on, which makes it difficult to track the conversation without disagreements and such.

This is the only way the nudge becomes a hard prodding that CGC responds to this. my2cents

[trademarkcomics]

On 12/20/2023 at 7:02 AM, WolverineX said:

are 9.8s really 15k books?

No. 10k maybe. As someone pointed out, now that they have been outed as scammers, some heroes are "winning" these books by overbidding as a way to police this seller. 

[comicwiz]

On 12/20/2023 at 10:02 AM, WolverineX said:

are 9.8s really 15k books?

[mephistopheles]

On 12/20/2023 at 11:02 AM, WolverineX said:

are 9.8s really 15k books?

Must resist....urge......to make....Ultimate Fallout 4 joke!

[trademarkcomics]

Of course, you can always count on GPA to count these as legit sales...

 

[topcat54]

So the guy selling these books is known on ebay as briva3 but when you select one of the books the seller comes up Comic Selects who ships from Forest Hills, New York, United States . Is there a reason this happens or is this the name of his store on the bay?

[Mutant Manatee]

On 12/20/2023 at 9:25 AM, topcat54 said:

So the guy selling these books is known on ebay as briva3 but when you select one of the books the seller comes up Comic Selects who ships from Forest Hills, New York, United States . Is there a reason this happens or is this the name of his store on the bay?

That's just the name of his eBay store.  You can name your eBay store something different than your eBay ID.

[GDN]

On 12/20/2023 at 7:02 AM, WolverineX said:

are 9.8s really 15k books?

My answer to this question is always...."a book is worth as much as someone is willing to pay".  Of course in the case of this book it is highly suspicious of fraudulent bidding also so the $15K is probably meaningless.

Looking at GoCollect records the only sale of a ASM 252 MJ in a 9.8 is the fraudulent $15K one discussed in this thread.  I don't know if GPA has more recorded as I let my subscription lapse to GPA recently.

There may not exist any real 9.8 ASM 252 MJ.  

Edited December 20, 2023 by GDN

[GDN]

Not likely we will see this guy reappear on eBay anytime soon.  I'd be on the lookout on other selling sites for MJ copies of SW8, X266, IH340.

The seller pulled IH340 MJ shortly after the initial IG post by 9.9newstand.  He pulled a lot of other listings.  When I first checked his page when this first happened he had a nice list of MJ and 9.8 newsstands for sale.  He removed all but the X266 and SW8 up till last night.  He pulled the X266 while the DaveAvengers/9.9Newstand YT show was going on.  It had a whole bunch of retracted bids before it was pulled.  Someone in the chat for that show claimed they were willing to take a strike on their eBay account and were bidding the SW8 up high with no intention to pay.  Not sure if that guy was just joking or was the guy who bid up to $21K before the seller pulled the listing with 30mins to go.

Edited December 20, 2023 by GDN