ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[DC#]

On 12/21/2023 at 10:12 AM, Mikey C said:

It’s absolutely the same book. The 8.5 looks to have more white along the spine because of the white background it’s taken on.

Respectfully disagree.  

[Timed]

On 12/21/2023 at 12:16 PM, DC# said:

Respectfully disagree.  

Having that spine tick near Hulk's knee, as well as the top right corner bend match... it's hard to say they aren't the same.

[waaaghboss]

On 12/21/2023 at 10:16 AM, DC# said:

Respectfully disagree.  

is this the same color break?

[Mutant Manatee]

On 12/21/2023 at 12:24 PM, Timed said:

Having that spine tick near Hulk's knee, as well as the top right corner bend match... it's hard to say they aren't the same.

There's also a slight rub along the top edge above the E in Marvel that is in the exact same spot on both books.  To my eye they are absolutely the same book.

[lostboys]

Same book.

 

Look at the mark above the "E" in MARVEL at the top of the book.

 

Both books have it.

[J Bill]

Almost certain they're the same. The white background and the vertical line from the inner well really creates an illusion that the white wrap extends wider than it really does.

[DC#]

If everyone is convinced then let's just go back to our regular scheduled programming.     

[RonS2112]

On 12/21/2023 at 10:32 AM, paqart said:

then trick CGC into re-encapsulating 

....and here is the crux of why everyone else posts seem to be going over your head.  CGC is SUPPOSED TO BE TRICK-PROOF.  These are the guys who's ENTIRE BUSINESS MODEL is that they are the third-party objective arbiter of quality across the community.  Again, it isn't hard to imagine a gazillion other similar scams that take advantage of this exact loophole.

[Mikey C]

On 12/21/2023 at 1:51 PM, RonS2112 said:

....and here is the crux of why everyone else posts seem to be going over your head.  CGC is SUPPOSED TO BE TRICK-PROOF.  These are the guys who's ENTIRE BUSINESS MODEL is that they are the third-party objective arbiter of quality across the community.  Again, it isn't hard to imagine a gazillion other similar scams that take advantage of this exact loophole.

Any book with a stupid 9.8 premium will be perfect targets for these types of scams. 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Mikey C

[skybolt]

The one thing I'm trying to get my head around is how this guy was bold enough to submit some of these books for re-holdering and not worry about CGC potentially asking to regrade them to ensure that the Mark Jeweler insert is all there and/or not detached. If one CGC employee told this person that we can't give out this designation without regrading the book first (especially if he was not the original submitter of the same serial numbered book), then shouldn't that raise some red flags at CGC if he tried the same thing with the same book a few weeks later? For example, I remember a Youtuber previously asking CGC if he could re-holder a previously graded newsstand edition and get the newsstand designation, and was told that they can't do that without regrading the book. In this scenario the newsstand designation was actually in plain site vs. in the middle of the book like the Mark Jeweler insert.

Can someone verify if what I said above is true? Can I send a newsstand book that was graded in let's say 2015 and receive the newsstand designation now via the re-holdering process only?

Edited December 21, 2023 by skybolt

[Prince Namor]

On 12/21/2023 at 9:43 PM, paqart said:

Not that you have any idea, but great guess.

Yes. I do have an idea. And what you wrote isn't the way it's going to happen. 

On 12/21/2023 at 12:57 PM, paqart said:

 I think the most likely scenario goes like this:

The customers, one or more, complain to eBay and demand refunds. EBay grants the refunds, investigates the seller and the fraud. They determine the fraud is done through CGC. EBay can then sue CGC and the fraudster himself. In CGC's case, they don't have to know what was going on to be sued. Their negligence alone is enough. Add to it the possibility that the fraudster has a "friend" at CGC, and eBay has a very good reason to go after CGC.

[sledgehammer]

On 12/21/2023 at 12:24 PM, Timed said:

Having that spine tick near Hulk's knee, as well as the top right corner bend match... it's hard to say they aren't the same.

you are 100% correct. The reason that the white area looks wider on the lower scan, is because there is a line from the inner well behind it. That is what is distorting the appearance.

 

sorry, somebody else caught that already.

Edited December 21, 2023 by sledgehammer

[Bo1983]

On 12/21/2023 at 11:09 AM, MatterEaterLad said:

THIS. 

How long has this guy been running this scam? Is it just this one account? Is it a group of people? Is there someone within CGC who is complicit? There are so many unanswered questions. Has CGC even offered a "We're aware of the situation and are looking into it"?

Check automatic comics YouTube page it could be thousands of books!

[DoctorWyoming1]

On 12/21/2023 at 11:53 AM, mephistopheles said:

Prediction #1: ALL reslabs will have to be removed from the inner well and regraded moving forward.

Prediction #2: The price for reslabs is about to increase.

So the only lasting result will be that CGC makes more money? THAT seems like something I could bet the farm on...

[paqart]

On 12/21/2023 at 12:22 PM, drotto said:

The other issue is by name, business, and actions, CGC is presenting themselves as experts in grading. Under the law an expert is held to a higher standard, because they have additional expertise that in theory should avoid the error. Therefor they may be liable when a layperson is not.

It's even more than that. In this case, CGC isn't just an "expert." They are performing the same function as an assayer. This is a very serious problem for them. The heart of it is that buyers are in a position where CGC is the ultimate authority, with no way to check that authority. I just spoke with a friend of mine in the medical insurance business about this. He runs into fraud all the time and had a name for this. Unfortunately, I forgot what it was, but it means what I just wrote. When you have one authority and they have a financial incentive to commit fraud, there will almost certainly be fraud. Also, this can be used in insurance fraud as well. Our guy doesn't have to sell the comics to get money. If they are insured, he can file an insurance claim as well. This is the kind of thing that can cause market failure.

[drotto]

On 12/21/2023 at 1:53 PM, skybolt said:

The one thing I'm trying to get my head around is how this guy was bold enough to submit some of these books for re-holdering and not worry about CGC potentially asking to regrade them to ensure that the Mark Jeweler insert is all there and/or non detached. If one CGC employee told this person that we can't give out this designation without regrading the book first (especially if he was not the original submitter of the same serial numbered book), then shouldn't that raise some red flags at CGC if he tried the same thing with the same book a few weeks later? For example, I remember a Youtuber previously asking CGC if he could re-holder a previously graded newsstand edition and get the newsstand designation, and was told that they can't do that without regrading the book. In this scenario the newsstand designation was actually in plain site vs. in the middle of the book like the Mark Jeweler insert.

Can someone verify if what I said above is true? Can I send a newsstand book that was graded in let's say 2015 and receive the newsstand designation now via the re-holdering process only?

Because, even if CGC finds the error, they are not going to jump to the conclusion that the submitter is attempting to commit fraud.  More then likely they will call them and say the found some issues with the book. They would then ask.

1. Do you just want us to return the book

2. Try and fix the issues with a press, etc

3. Re-grade with the chance the grade drops or may get a different label.

We have no idea if the person has had books rejected, we just know some have gotten through. We have no idea what their success rate is with this. Even if CGC has caught some, the submitter is never going to admit what they are doing, the will act surprised and say, wow thanks for catching that, but I am disappointed.  CGC is non the wiser about their true intentions.

 

[Willbert]

One interesting piece of info eBay could provide is this scammer's buying history. I'm curious if he was too lazy to use a 2nd account for buying his lower grade books used for swapping. Guess if this Hulk 181 is the book then that ebay ID's history would be helpful if any official investigation is undertook.

Edited December 21, 2023 by Willbert

[Heronext]

On 12/21/2023 at 2:07 PM, DoctorWyoming1 said:

So the only lasting result will be that CGC makes more money? THAT seems like something I could bet the farm on...

Cost of a reholder will increase and it will include a cursory check for obvious shenanigans but not a regrade.

[DoctorWyoming1]

On 12/21/2023 at 1:11 PM, Heronext said:

Cost of a reholder will increase and it will include a cursory check for obvious shenanigans but not a regrade.

I could roll with that. I'd also be happy to see them roll out a revamped case for the 'big boy books'. If you're already putting down 3% of FMV they should toss in a better case than the one they give you for Super Villain Team Up 7 in 4.5

Edited December 21, 2023 by DoctorWyoming1

[skybolt]

On 12/21/2023 at 1:09 PM, drotto said:

Because, even if CGC finds the error, they are not going to jump to the conclusion that the submitter is attempting to commit fraud.  More then likely they will call them and say the found some issues with the book. They would then ask.

1. Do you just want us to return the book

2. Try and fix the issues with a press, etc

3. Re-grade with the chance the grade drops or may get a different label.

We have no idea if the person has had books rejected, we just know some have gotten through. We have no idea what their success rate is with this. Even if CGC has caught some, the submitter is never going to admit what they are doing, the will act surprised and say, wow thanks for catching that, but I am disappointed.  CGC is non the wiser about their true intentions.

 

Good points. The one thing I can think of is the seller trying to form a relationship with a CGC staffer and going through them directly for these type of issues. What I mean, is that let's say the ASM #252 guy called CGC customer service and acted extremely upset about CGC not giving him the Mark Jeweler designation to the point where he won't submit books anymore. The CGC staffer tells this guy not to worry, and to send the book directly to them to take care of. Now this guy has a point of contact who can streamline the situation for him when he has a similar "error" occur. If he only has to convince that one staffer that CGC keeps screwing up, then he's guaranteed to get the Mark Jeweler designation every time.