ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Superman2006]

On 12/22/2023 at 4:54 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

On 12/22/2023 at 4:53 PM, Superman2006 said:

On 12/22/2023 at 4:41 PM, VintageComics said:

On 12/22/2023 at 2:49 PM, Superman2006 said:

used to seal the label to the inner well. Some boardie(s) may know the approximate date when they stopped doing that...

They stopped sealing the certification label inside the inner well when they changed to this newest outer case roughly circa early 2017?

These newest cases (I call them Gen 3) initially had the "creep engine" problem, but shortly after that problem, the solution was to use the older (previous Gen 2) style inner well structure, but they needed to cut the top off it off those older wells to fit inside the latest style outer holders. 

The newer style holders had no room in the design for the taller, older inner well with the label at the top, because the label already had a designated area within the newest outer holder. 

The label AND outer holder were redesigned for 2 specific reasons:

1) to both replace the top label sticker (which always used to come off over time and annoy people) so this is why the new CGC label folds over the top of the book and is visible from outside and

2) to prevent swapping labels out between books the way some of the older inner labels used to allow.

The entire design rested on the premise that the outer case was the final deterrent and that any tampering would be clearly evident. 

I am fairly certain that the inner well is roughly the same or similar design that has been used from the previous Gen 2 cases. 

Expand  

Expand  

Thanks, man. That's consistent with my recollection about the various iterations of the slabs over the years. I was thinking it had been roughly 5 years since Gen 3 was introduced, which isn't far off from your 2017 estimate. So I guess Gen 2 and earlier slabs (from roughly around 2016/2017 and prior) should be safe from this particular scam since the label was sealed to the inner well.

Just fyi clarification it was specifically June 2016

Thanks buddy, I knew someone would know a more precise date : )

[Changer]

Hey can we all get back to comic collecting,

btw I have a hulk 181 9.0 I might be willing to sell ;) 

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/22/2023 at 3:54 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

Just fyi clarification it was specifically June 2016

Which is also the month CGC introduced special labels, I know because it was the first month offered and the first month I made my first submission. It was the Stan Lee label, and I had books signed by Stan with the label, at my first ever big comic con. In June 2016

[VintageComics]

On 12/22/2023 at 4:54 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

Just fyi clarification it was specifically June 2016

Thanks. I knew it was late 2016 or early 2017, but I couldn't remember exactly. 

I know I saw them first in Seattle and I just checked my records, and you're right. I was in Seattle July 2017 a month after the release so that's where I saw them first. I think it was Greg Reece's booth to be specific. He had an early Atlas I wanted.

On 12/22/2023 at 4:53 PM, MAR1979 said:

Good to see your sense of humor is intact [/sarcasm]

Sorry. That is pretty funny in hindsight. I thought you were serious and I get annoyed by people who worry about Newton rings. Strangely, to my recollection I don't remember anyone complaining about Newton rings to myself. 

[sledgehammer]

On 12/22/2023 at 3:54 PM, Superman2006 said:

Thanks buddy, I knew someone would know a more precise date : )

I don't think I ever cracked a slab with the label sealed to the inner well. They were always just pop out of the top.

What years were they used?

[Superman2006]

On 12/22/2023 at 4:56 PM, Changer said:

Hey can we all get back to comic collecting,

btw I have a hulk 181 9.0 I might be willing to sell ;) 

Sure a 9.0 blue label, but what is former grade of the book in the inner well?

Spoiler

Too soon?

[jcjames]

On 12/22/2023 at 2:56 PM, Changer said:

Hey can we all get back to comic collecting,

btw I have a hulk 181 9.0 I might be willing to sell ;) 

Not with a screen-name like that! 

[Changer]

On 12/22/2023 at 2:00 PM, Superman2006 said:

Sure a 9.0 blue label, but what is former grade of the book in the inner well?

  Reveal hidden contents

Too soon?

its like a crackerjack box, you never know what you'll get. I did buy mine I think from a reliable source over 5 years ago? makes you wonder. 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Changer

[VintageComics]

On 12/22/2023 at 4:59 PM, sledgehammer said:

I don't think I ever cracked a slab with the label sealed to the inner well. They were always just pop out of the top.

What years were they used?

All the way up until the Gen 3 holders started in late 2016.

They used to partially seal to the inner well (or were supposed to) and part of the reason for the Gen 3 redesign was to make label swapping harder. 

I think one root problem to all of this is that the outer clam shell isn't always sealed as well as it could be. MOST of the books I've cracked make it impossible to not notice it's been tampered with, but I have heard and read of reports where this hasn't always been the case.

[Superman2006]

On 12/22/2023 at 4:59 PM, sledgehammer said:

On 12/22/2023 at 4:54 PM, Superman2006 said:

Thanks buddy, I knew someone would know a more precise date : )

I don't think I ever cracked a slab with the label sealed to the inner well. They were always just pop out of the top.

What years were they used?

Per Adamantium, slabs pre-June 2016, i.e. pre-June 2016 slabs were either Gen 1 or Gen 2 slabs. I think you easily discern between Gen 1, 2, and 3 slabs as follows:

Gen 1: Tiny word and number grade on label e.g. "G+ 2.5"

Gen 2: Big number grade box on the label in the top left (but not quite as big as the number grade box on Gen 3 books)

[Book Guy]

On 12/22/2023 at 12:47 PM, comicwiz said:

That's the part that is complicating things, because I think in order for us to understand the scale of the deception and fraud being committed here, we have to stop thinking of this as a "submission." Once we do that, we can start to understand how things like two books, conjoiined only due to them being swapped, and one book ending-up in a slab that misrepresents it's state, could have the same grade dates.

Some low probability possibilities:

Perhaps the Green Hulk was submitted by the suggested culprit using a different CGC account. It was mailed the same day from the same location in a different package than the Blue Hulk but by the same shipper and arrived the same day and went through the process at the same speed and just happened to be graded the same day which might happen a lot if he submits from more than one CGC acct at the same time. Perhaps submissions done this way are usually processed within a day or two of each other and sometimes the same day. I agree that an insider seems more likely-a clued in lookout is waiting. "A small package of great value will come to you shortly" to quote the very old Jefferson Airplane song!

Why to submit a Green label Hulk is more problematic. If it was shipped in a Blue Label slab with a reholder request perhaps someone actually did due diligence and opened the inner well. Perhaps the inner well was cracked during shipment or at CGC and they were forced to re grade it. Maybe it went accidently to someone else other than 'the insider' who noticed the condition differences and acted. If it was shipped as a reholder and was actually regraded, would it still get the original Serial number from the (substituted) blue holder or would it have been given a new number at that point? I'm unsure when the culprit actually bought the green Hulk and yes my mind is spinning trying to keep this all straight.

 

[Prince Namor]

On 12/22/2023 at 10:58 PM, VintageComics said:

People need to sharpen their pencils a little and think before they walk.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/22/2023 at 3:59 PM, VintageComics said:

Thanks. I knew it was late 2016 or early 2017, but I couldn't remember exactly. 

I know I saw them first in Seattle and I just checked my records, and you're right. I was in Seattle July 2017 a month after the release so that's where I saw them first. I think it was Greg Reece's booth to be specific. He had an early Atlas I wanted.

Sorry. That is pretty funny in hindsight. I thought you were serious and I get annoyed by people who worry about Newton rings. Strangely, to my recollection I don't remember anyone complaining about Newton rings to myself. 

I'm sure that was typo, but you're on your way to remembering I hope lol.

It was June 2016

@VintageComics

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by ADAMANTIUM

[VintageComics]

On 12/22/2023 at 5:06 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

I'm sure that was typo, but you're on your way to remembering I hope lol.

 

Sorry, yes. I was in Seattle July 2016. Just typing too fast. 

Weird that the software wouldn't allow me to edit this post for a while. I kept getting a notification saying it was too old to edit?

Edited December 22, 2023 by VintageComics

[Superman2006]

On 12/22/2023 at 5:03 PM, VintageComics said:

On 12/22/2023 at 4:59 PM, sledgehammer said:

I don't think I ever cracked a slab with the label sealed to the inner well. They were always just pop out of the top.

What years were they used?

All the way up until the Gen 3 holders started in late 2016.

They used to partially seal to the inner well (or were supposed to) and part of the reason for the Gen 3 redesign was to make label swapping harder. 

I think one root problem to all of this is that the outer clam shell isn't always sealed as well as it could be. MOST of the books I've cracked make it impossible to not notice it's been tampered with, but I have heard and read of reports where this hasn't always been the case.

Regarding bold part above, I totally agree. I haven't cracked many Gen 3 holders but every one that I have cracked make it obvious that it had been cracked on all sides of the case. If the seller has been doing those for a while, I don't understand how he's able to get into the cases without making it obvious that it was cracked on at least one side; maybe he has a stockpile of slabs that weren't properly sealed that he's using to seal / send the books back for reholder?

[Microchip]

On 12/23/2023 at 8:03 AM, brute_nm said:

As we approach 75 pages, I'm worried that the details of the seller and the scam will get lost in all the side conversations and bickering.  Here's my attempt at summarizing what we know right now.

I know this is a rapidly-evolving situation, and stuff will likely change in coming days/weeks, but hopefully this helps distill the thread down to a digestible level.

I'm a little surprised by the books not on his target list.

No Wolverine Limited series #1.   Another huge population book, and another book paying a premium for newsstand editions.    Very strictly graded across the board mind you, maybe thats a factor?   The single color cover makes things difficult when sending bak to CGC?

[jeffreyk]

On 12/22/2023 at 4:41 PM, VintageComics said:

They stopped sealing the certification label inside the inner well when they changed to this newest outer case roughly circa early 2017?

These newest cases (I call them Gen 3) initially had the "creep engine" problem, but shortly after that problem, the solution was to use the older (previous Gen 2) style inner well structure, but they needed to cut the top off it off those older wells to fit inside the latest style outer holders. 

The newer style holders had no room in the design for the taller, older inner well with the label at the top, because the label already had a designated area within the newest outer holder. 

The label AND outer holder were redesigned for 2 specific reasons:

1) to both replace the top label sticker (which always used to come off over time and annoy people) so this is why the new CGC label folds over the top of the book and is visible from outside and

2) to prevent swapping labels out between books the way some of the older inner labels used to allow.

The entire design rested on the premise that the outer case was the final deterrent and that any tampering would be clearly evident. 

I am fairly certain that the inner well is roughly the same or similar design that has been used from the previous Gen 2 cases. 

In regards to your point 2, how could the labels be swapped if it was part of the inner well?  Wouldnt it need to be cut open?  I have never cracked a slab and have some from all generations.

[Prince Namor]

On 12/22/2023 at 11:12 PM, VintageComics said:

Some people are always sour about CGC and want them to fail.

You're on a CGC message board. Of course you're mostly going to hear about CGC problems.

The only time you're going to hear about non-CGC problems is if someone posts about them here, and since the raw side of the hobby is probably many times bigger than the certified side of the hobby, you're getting an unequal representation. 

People need to learn to scale their perspective to reality. 

Scale their perspective to reality? It's not about the size of CGC vs the rest of the hobby, it's about the amount of MONEY that could be involved in a scam like this and its impact on the ENTIRE market.

THAT is its 'perspective' to 'reality'.

[VintageComics]

On 12/22/2023 at 5:20 PM, jeffreyk said:

In regards to your point 2, how could the labels be swapped if it was part of the inner well?  Wouldnt it need to be cut open?  I have never cracked a slab and have some from all generations.

The old wells were sealed on 4 sides. 2 vertical seals all the way from top to bottom, and two horizontal seals above and below the book.

The vertical sealings (along the longest part of the inner well) went all the way from the top to the bottom of the inner holder, and that seal was used to also partially seal the label to the inner wells.

The idea being, if you removed the label, a little paper was torn off by the seal showing it was tampered with. 

The problem was that it wasn't always effective and so part of the problem they tried to address with the Gen 3 design, was to eliminate label tampering as well as book tampering. 

[Prince Namor]

On 12/22/2023 at 10:16 PM, MyNameIsLegion said:

oh?

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/21/style/raphael-madonna-della-rosa-ai-scli-intl-scn/index.html

yeah, while CGC is busy ignoring this thread, someone is thinking about how they can grade more,faster using AI. MCS will probably get their first because they are innovation minded but the first grading company to figure this out will disrupt the market in a way that poses the single biggest threat to CGC's dominance, much more than this little embarrassing thread. It's not a question of IF AI will will do grading of collectibles, but when. 3D objects objects are not an issue. That's been fairly routine for a decade. The last guy at CGC that might still have a job in 10 years, ironically enough as it pertains to this thread, is the mook reholdering books.

Can you imagine? A 100% fair, near perfect, CONSISTENT, and FAST program to do grading?

That never takes a day off, or gets tired?

It would blow the wheels off the old model.