ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[paqart]

On 12/22/2023 at 1:17 PM, skybolt said:

That's a good list. With respect to No's 4 and 5, my gut tells me those numbers are a lot higher. For example, in addition to Ebay, this guy was also selling stuff on other forums. 99newsstand also mentioned that he's seen him at sales shows showcasing his stuff during the comic book boom. I imagine he was getting triple the price at that time. This guy probably also sold books to a lot of dealers without that info making it into Go Collect or GPA. I'm really scared that his submissions could be somewhere in the 5k to 10k range over the past 12 years, which will likely lead to your other point that multiple people are involved in the process.

I agree. I'm looking at $100k tied up ea/ year as a minimal amount. I don't see how it could be much less. I do see it could be much higher. I'm curious if he could pull off similar scams with cards and coins. I think he can, though with coins, think it would be harder to do because coin collectors (I assume) are more capable of distinguishing grade differences than comics or cards because the type of flaws associated with lower grades are more limited than the variety found in paper collectibles.

[comicwiz]

On 12/22/2023 at 2:56 PM, VintageComics said:

May I suggest reading up on what a false equivalence is?

I might suggest you do the same with reading what I wrote, and equating what we did here for the reasons we want to see CGC fail.

Get a grip.

Edited December 22, 2023 by comicwiz

[VintageComics]

On 12/22/2023 at 3:01 PM, comicwiz said:

I might suggest you do the same with reading what I wrote, and equating what did here for the reasons we want to see CGC fail.

Get a grip.

Dude, YOU twisted the meaning of my post and responded to something that had NOTHING to do with you. You tend to overreact often. Relax. 

[namisgr]

On 12/22/2023 at 2:51 PM, Superman2006 said:

Scammer could have purchased the blue and green label from different sellers that just happened to have been graded on the same day. Scammer could then take the book from the green slab, insert in blue slab, send it back for a reholder and maintain the same blue label info (except now it has the qualified book inside the slab).

Interesting conjecture that I can't rule out, although it seems highly unlikely.

[namisgr]

On 12/22/2023 at 2:57 PM, sledgehammer said:

Yep. Do you know how long the current inner well style has been employed?

I know they changed it several years ago to supposedly make it more difficult to switch labels without damaging the inner well.  In the early years of encapsulation, labels weren't held in place at all.  I don't remember specifically when they switched, though.

Edited December 22, 2023 by namisgr

[comicwiz]

On 12/22/2023 at 3:02 PM, namisgr said:

Interesting conjecture that I can't rule out, although it seems highly unlikely.

The fact pattern is that the green label 7.0 went up for sale 10 days after it was graded, along with a Marvel Spotlight 5 that was CBCS graded. 

That green label reappeared roughly two months later in a blue label, with a higher grade, and no mention of it missing an MVS or panel from pg 14. At least if we go by the s/n.

In the same sellers hands that has been caught doing this before.

I'm going with the bolded part of your statement.

Edited December 22, 2023 by comicwiz

[paqart]

On 12/22/2023 at 1:53 PM, comicwiz said:

Now look at the graded date on the blue 7.5:

HTH did he get it graded two days after the sale? How did he get it from the seller 2 days after the sale?

[AbsoluteCarnage]

On 12/22/2023 at 1:39 PM, Superman2006 said:

Back in the old days, CGC used to heat seal the label to the inner well. With that design, I don't think a scammer could simply replace a label or an inner well and seal it back up or send it back to CGC for a reholder.

Approximately when did CGC stop heat sealing the label to the inner well?

I'm only on page 67 where you asked this so apologies if someone answered from page 68 to page infinity but when I noticed that the inner wells were a tad loose at times I looked into it and found this thread from 2021. At first I thought it was a malfunction in the slabbing process and I think most did back then but it turned out to be CGC changing the way they did the sealing in order to try and eliminate "Newton Rings" from what I have taken in. I was advised from the highest up that the inner wells aren't meant to be locked in so it's probably a good assumption that it was changed in 2020ish I'm guessing. Maybe earlier. Hope that helps.

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by AbsoluteCarnage

[sledgehammer]

On 12/22/2023 at 2:09 PM, paqart said:

HTH did he get it graded two days after the sale? How did he get it from the seller 2 days after the sale?

Sold this November.

[comicwiz]

On 12/22/2023 at 3:09 PM, paqart said:

HTH did he get it graded two days after the sale? How did he get it from the seller 2 days after the sale?

Just to consolidate the deets:

Green 7.0: 4115260001
Blue 7.5:  4115170002

Both have graded dates of 08/24/2022

The Green 7.0 sold on Sept 3rd, 2022. 10 days after grade date. That is pretty fast to arrive to the person who subbed it.

The Blue 7.5 sold  on Nov 9th, 2022. A little over two months after it first appeared for sale as a green label.

 

[Night_Creeper007]

Not sure if anyone has put together a list like this. Went through every ebay listing for user briva3 and pulled every complete submission list (other than those very early ones). Would have thrown on pastebin, but broke spreadsheet up.

https://cryptpad.fr/sheet/#/2/sheet/view/yNQWozCaTCS+a44NJvfPkknNa6f+U2OZa8ugwtAkhT0/

[Axelrod]

What does it mean that the book that was graded with a green label sold?

How do you sell it, and then sub it into a blue label?

I think I am missing a step.  

[paqart]

On 12/22/2023 at 3:15 PM, sledgehammer said:

Sold this November.

I got the dates mixed up. Thought the IH181 + MS5 sale was 2 days before the IH181 got graded. This happens when the posts are split up as they are. Hard for old fogey like me to keep track of them.

[Axelrod]

So the other "catch" would be to find the 181 that was originally graded 7.5 out in the wild again in a new holder?  

Since this is what he does, yes?  He takes the good book and slides the green label book into the blue label case.  Then gets the original graded again.

I guess there are 1000s of 181s.  Hard to look at them all and see if you find another one with those characteristics.  

But if you can just look at the submissions from that particular person maybe?

[sledgehammer]

On 12/22/2023 at 2:19 PM, Axelrod said:

What does it mean that the book that was graded with a green label sold?

How do you sell it, and then sub it into a blue label?

I think I am missing a step.  

The same grade date makes it nuts, and makes us think inside job.

Otherwise, it could be the same old formula for fraud we've documented him doing.

[sledgehammer]

On 12/22/2023 at 2:19 PM, Axelrod said:

What does it mean that the book that was graded with a green label sold?

How do you sell it, and then sub it into a blue label?

I think I am missing a step.  

The same grade date/different certs makes it nuts, and makes us think inside job.

Otherwise, it could be the same old formula for fraud we've documented him doing.

Edited December 22, 2023 by sledgehammer

[namisgr]

On 12/22/2023 at 3:13 PM, AbsoluteCarnage said:

I'm only on page 67 where you asked this so apologies if someone answered from page 68 to page infinity but when I noticed that the inner wells were a tad loose at times I looked into it and found this thread from 2021. At first I thought it was a malfunction in the slabbing process and I think most did back then but it turned out to be CGC changing the way they did the sealing in order to try and eliminate "Newton Rings" from what I have taken in. I was advised from the highest up that the inner wells aren't meant to be locked in so it's probably a good assumption that it was changed in 2020ish I'm guessing. Maybe earlier. Hope that helps.

 

I don't think the matter of loose slabs relates to changing whether or not the label is tethered to the top part of the inner well.

[Superman2006]

On 12/22/2023 at 3:16 PM, comicwiz said:

On 12/22/2023 at 3:09 PM, paqart said:

HTH did he get it graded two days after the sale? How did he get it from the seller 2 days after the sale?

Just to consolidate the deets:

Green 7.0: 4115260001
Blue 7.5:  4115170002

Both have graded dates of 08/24/2022

The Green 7.0 sold on Sept 3rd, 2022. 10 days after grade date. That is pretty fast to arrive to the person who subbed it.

The Blue 7.5 sold  on Nov 9th, 2022. A little over two months after it first appeared for sale as a green label.

Is there any logical reason for the scammer to have submitted a book missing the MVS in order to get a green label Hulk 181? I can't think of one. If the scammer didn't submit the Hulk 181 with green label, then I think the most likely explanation for the same grade dates is that it is just a coincidence. Am I missing something?

[comicwiz]

In no way am I sharing this to toot my horn, it's just a fact. When the Toy Toni scam was perpetrated, I was one of the people involved with trying to examine the patterns, and that included trying to look at the items he was producing, and comparing them to track how his methods evolved.

There is something I am withholding from this most recentl IH green to blue discovery, because I am trying to figure out if this is a person who has access to the industrial scale equipment, or has replicated it at home using a wide range of methods. 

It's a worthwhile thing to bring up because with this discovery, we are now moving the timeline back to as early as Sept 2022, at least within that timeframe, as he won that auction, and ended-up with the green label IH 181.

There is something I noticed which leads me to believe the convincing factor isn't a consideration here. And that this was early times, but with the YouTubers scavanging content/analysis, and work we are collaborating on and making it theirs. Worse, convoluting the situation more than it needs to, I am going to continue to withhold this and will expand on this more once I've had more time to think through the possibilities.

It's the only thing that has kept me from thinking this is a pure insider thing - it's still possible it's only partial, but I wanted to be upfront that I am holding back something which I think will be important at some point. For now, it's something which appears to show whatever methods he was using, he's gotten better at doing over the last year.

Edited December 22, 2023 by comicwiz

[VintageComics]

On 12/22/2023 at 12:04 AM, Changer said:

does CGC have a fraud investigation team ? or are we it...lol 

CGC's former head of security was a Police Detective from the North East, and that was many years ago. They're a $Billion company now. I think it's safe to assume they're going to devote some proper resources to this to get it solved and dealt with.