ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Lightning55]

Voluntarily deleted - trying to stay out of trouble.

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by Lightning55

[WestcoastDAVEngers]

On 12/25/2023 at 7:40 PM, sledgehammer said:

Thank you.

Just one more thing and I'll stop pestering you.

Do you think that this statement accurately reflects anything that you, manu or swaggle has ever said during a video?

"They clearly stated this was someone well known in that niche of the hobby (MJ / Newsstand variants)."

Nope, I didn't know who he was until we discovered the ASM 252 photos, 9.9 knew who of him for a few weeks, I think only because of the fact that all those 9.8 MJs hit grailz in November. But I remember checking his IG profile before he made it private and not many people followed him. So overall, some people in the high end book buying community knew him but most people did not know he even existed.

Which all makes sense...why make yourself known to a lot when you're ripping people off

[WestcoastDAVEngers]

On 12/25/2023 at 7:40 PM, sledgehammer said:

Thank you.

Just one more thing and I'll stop pestering you.

Do you think that this statement accurately reflects anything that you, manu or swaggle has ever said during a video?

"They clearly stated this was someone well known in that niche of the hobby (MJ / Newsstand variants)."

Also, just to be transparent, last week from Sunday-friday I was live 4 times, and a 5th on my friends channel, I was live for a total of about 12-14 hours, I might have said "I'm Abraham Lincoln reincarnate" and I probably have no recollection of it.

[skybolt]

On 12/25/2023 at 9:54 PM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

Also, just to be transparent, last week from Sunday-friday I was live 4 times, and a 5th on my friends channel, I was live for a total of about 12-14 hours, I might have said "I'm Abraham Lincoln reincarnate" and I probably have no recollection of it.

No worries Dave, we all appreciate everything you're doing and keeping us informed. 

[sledgehammer]

On 12/25/2023 at 9:54 PM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

Also, just to be transparent, last week from Sunday-friday I was live 4 times, and a 5th on my friends channel, I was live for a total of about 12-14 hours, I might have said "I'm Abraham Lincoln reincarnate" and I probably have no recollection of it.

Careful, in 6 days somebody will be positive that you said that.

[Comics]

On 12/25/2023 at 7:01 PM, comicwiz said:

You and I are on the same page. 

That's the same scenario that started the whole 'inside man' conversation. Which makes it seem much more likely. I mean like 98% likely...

[Comics]

On 12/25/2023 at 7:54 PM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

Also, just to be transparent, last week from Sunday-friday I was live 4 times, and a 5th on my friends channel, I was live for a total of about 12-14 hours, I might have said "I'm Abraham Lincoln reincarnate" and I probably have no recollection of it.

I'm pretty sure you had said "reborn" not reincarnated. I'll go check the tape... ;-P

[skybolt]

On 12/25/2023 at 10:13 PM, Comics said:

That's the same scenario that started the whole 'inside man' conversation. Which makes it seem much more likely. I mean like 98% likely...

Not to mention that the 4 day difference in grading the same book twice included a Saturday and Sunday, when CGC offices were closed on 2/25/2023 and 2/26/2023.

[MatterEaterLad]

On 12/25/2023 at 7:33 PM, comicwiz said:

Most noticeable characteristics to ascertain exact match, same wrap, same spine ticks, particularly by Wolvie's forearm,non colour-breaking triangular crease on bottom right corner

4206646001 - CGC Qualifed 7.0 - Hulk 181 - Sold May 11, 2023 - $3799.99 (GD: 02/24/2023)

Became

↳ 4209759001 - CGC Universal 8.5 - Hulk 181 - Sold June 12, 2023 - $6900 (GD: 02/28/2023)

These books were graded 4 DAYS APART. Book was given a green label on a Friday, and is graded blue the following Tuesday.  There's no way that book left CGC.

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by MatterEaterLad

[FlyingDonut]

On 12/25/2023 at 11:20 PM, MatterEaterLad said:

These books were graded 4 DAYS APART. Book was given a green label on a Friday, and is graded blue the following Tuesday.  There's no way that book left CGC.

 

That's not four days apart, that's one day apart - the book was done on Friday. One business day is Monday.

[MatterEaterLad]

On 12/25/2023 at 9:30 PM, FlyingDonut said:

That's not four days apart, that's one day apart - the book was done on Friday. One business day is Monday.

Exactly. That book did not leave CGC. It's definitely someone(s) on the inside. The seller is elsewhere, but they're working together.

It's either that or a dealer has a VERY unique arrangement with CGC.

Edited December 26, 2023 by MatterEaterLad
typo

[skybolt]

On 12/25/2023 at 10:20 PM, MatterEaterLad said:

These books were graded 4 DAYS APART. Book was given a green label on a Friday, and is graded blue the following Tuesday.  There's no way that book left CGC.

 

As was mentioned in this thread before, there is no way that someone who's super meticulous about opening CGC cases and swapping books/labels without detection, would also take awful photos for his eBay listings (after all that work). Practically most of the photos had awful glare that showed his hand (in reflection) and made the book seem like it had multiple bends. This does not strike me as a person who masterminded the operation of consistently getting these books through CGC undetected.

[Taxi Driver]

On 12/25/2023 at 5:58 PM, sledgehammer said:

He definitely did present in a way that made it look as though he definitely knows who this guy is. Neither one of you want to doxx the guy and that is understandable. There was a point where you started to say his eBay seller name, and he started to interrupt you, because he thought that you were going to say his actual name.

you stated that you don't want to risk your YouTube channel, and that is certainly a very smart posture to have.

whether or not anyone at this point is going by packages that were received in transactions with him, or they absolutely know who he is, anyone here is only guessing.

i've had someone present to me what seemed like a very strong case on who this is, but this will all play out in due time.

 

That's what many have been posting the last few days, people know who the offender is, name, address, everything. So if the community isn't going to be harsh with this person, I think CGC isn't either. Right now he could be selling a cracked $500 slab and replacing it with a $150 book. It's wrong regardless of the amount, that's why I'm shocked the community hasn't taken a stronger stand, that's all I'm saying. 

[sledgehammer]

On 12/25/2023 at 10:39 PM, Taxi Driver said:

That's what many have been posting the last few days, people know who the offender is, name, address, everything. So if the community isn't going to be harsh with this person, I think CGC isn't either. Right now he could be selling a cracked $500 slab and replacing it with a $150 book. It's wrong regardless of the amount, that's why I'm shocked the community hasn't taken a stronger stand, that's all I'm saying. 

Welcome to the boards. You might not be aware, but there can be criminal penalties for doxxing someone online.

So when you say "harsh with him", be careful.

[skybolt]

On 12/25/2023 at 10:39 PM, Taxi Driver said:

That's what many have been posting the last few days, people know who the offender is, name, address, everything. So if the community isn't going to be harsh with this person, I think CGC isn't either. Right now he could be selling a cracked $500 slab and replacing it with a $150 book. It's wrong regardless of the amount, that's why I'm shocked the community hasn't taken a stronger stand, that's all I'm saying. 

My gut tells me that certain individuals that know who this person is are giving CGC a chance to make a statement first. If that does not happen in let's say 2 weeks, I guarantee the name will likely come out. That being said, I do realize that some unaware buyers could suffer collateral damage during this process.

[Taxi Driver]

On 12/25/2023 at 8:13 PM, Comics said:

That's the same scenario that started the whole 'inside man' conversation. Which makes it seem much more likely. I mean like 98% likely...

Have to agree!

[Sigur Ros]

On 12/25/2023 at 9:19 PM, Sam T said:

Do you think slabs are tamper proof?

CGC's?

No.

[Taxi Driver]

On 12/25/2023 at 8:42 PM, sledgehammer said:

Welcome to the boards. You might not be aware, but there can be criminal penalties for doxxing someone online.

So when you say "harsh with him", be careful.

The old quandary how far do you go to help others! I totally understand and not judging just surprised. That's why I see this ending with as someone else posted a "Will Smith" slap on the wrist by CGC and nothing more. He'll keep doing it somewhere else more than likely, sadly. 

[MatterEaterLad]

On 12/25/2023 at 9:50 PM, Taxi Driver said:

The old quandary how far do you go to help others! I totally understand and not judging just surprised. That's why I see this ending with as someone else posted a "Will Smith" slap on the wrist by CGC and nothing more. He'll keep doing it somewhere else more than likely, sadly. 

I'm surprised as well. This is a serious blow to the integrity of the collecting world. Just say the name. If it's the Breva person whose name is on the mailing label, I doubt that's the person pulling off the switch at CGC. There's more than one person in on this.

[agamoto]

On 12/25/2023 at 5:52 PM, Sam T said:

Has anyone actually shown a book that they bought from this guy or not? I've seen two comments from blank accounts saying they had 'em. Neither included photos, video or screenshots of their transaction with the guy.

 

This looks like a fake market data scam more than a fake slab scam.

 

On 12/25/2023 at 6:19 PM, Sam T said:

This doesn't make any sense to me. If a scammer found himself capable of swapping out the books in a slab without any sign of tampering and wanted to make money, sending books back in for reholdering is the slowest, most complicated and least likely to succeed scam you could possibly attempt. The easiest thing to do would be to just to sell 4.0s and 5.0s as 6.0s and 7.0s.. You'd spend a couple grand on books and then you'd start a cycle of buying lower grades, cracking them and then selling them in the higher grade slab and then sending in the higher grade book (now unslabbed) back to be regarded. 

 

The real issue here is very very very simple and doesn't require conspiracy theories and leaked DM's or easily faked Ebay sales data.

 

Slabs are either tamper proof or they're not.

 

Do you think slabs are tamper proof?

 

On 12/25/2023 at 6:22 PM, Sam T said:

Yep, if the version that the youtube conspiracy theorists keep sharing is true then it's not reholdering that's broken, its the holders themselves.

 

I'm curious what you think of my theory that it might actually not be a CGC issue as much as a fake internet sales issue? We have no actual evidence that any of these transactions actually took place. The second an auction ends, it starts showing in "sold listings", before payment has been sent or processed. We have no reason to think any of the comics OR the buyers from these auctions actually exist.

 

On 12/25/2023 at 6:45 PM, pdags said:

I'm an Occam's Razor guy.  It's a little easier for me to believe someone figured out how to "swap" books/slabs/labels and got greedy working their way up to 9.8 MJI books than trying to manipulate markets and paying fees on their own purchases.

Continuing the thought from before... we're focusing on slabbed books that were purchased.  It's entirely possible several RAW books of the same issue were purchased, all sent to CGC for grading, the slabs swapped to maximize profit, then sold on ebay.  Assuming reholdering isn't required, there would be no duplicate entry/record in the CGC registry with this method.  This is where I would've started if I was doing this.

To me this is part of the business CGC is in.  They should always be inovating their slabs security design.  If someone figures out how to bypass it, acknowledge it, address it, and get it fixed.  They have to maintain the public's trust.

 

On 12/25/2023 at 6:59 PM, Sam T said:

I'm actually pretty sure Occam would be on my side in this 🤣

 

What's simpler, a scam that involves sitting at your computer and generating fake data with fake accounts or a scam that involves the kind of trial and error, insider information and/or physical craftsmanship that would be required to come up with a method of swapping and resealing?

 

If a person generates an ebay account with fake information and fake/stolen payment information, they can simply rack up debt on an ebay account without it mattering. Also, I don't think I've been charged auction fees for auctions that buyers don't actually pay for. When an auction ends, it pops up in "sold listings" immediately. It does not require payment actually going through. The only version of this where the ebay scammer has to pay fees is the version where he's only willing to do one kind of scam. But the guy who does counterfeiting will also do identity theft. Internet crimes are easier and simpler than real world crimes. It's has to be easier to generate fake accounts on ebay than it is figure out the secrets to CGC's encapsulation process.

Guys, if this is your thinking on the matter, then you either haven't read the entire thread or you've missed some key elements. We've looked at his known ebay accounts going back to 2006. You also don't seem to realize just how many times this guy has sold the same comic again, and again, and again and he hasn't used more than a few names in that time-frame. 

There's only so many "non paying bidder" claims you can make before you trigger a call from eBay security for suspected shill bidding. Prematurely ended auctions don't get added to the Worthpoint database unless the auction successfully completes.

I've spent hours upon hours combing over the guys sales, he's done it a LOT and he doesn't use fake accounts. He's been using the same accounts for years at a stretch.

We know he's not generating fake data with fake books because we are able to FOLLOW the books, both the originals and the swapped out books before and after they've been sent in for reholder. It would be more difficult to be 100% sure of what this guy is up to, if it weren't for CGC's imaging of books shown in the grader's notes.

Loves me some occam's razor, but it's not slicing this situation the way you think it is.