ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[paqart]

On 12/28/2023 at 2:59 PM, MAR1979 said:

At what threshold is Risk+Expenses > Profit ?  I'm asking not stating...

My wife bought several booster packs for our daughter at a little grocery store in Manhattan. They were only $5 a pack or so, but were all counterfeit. It's possible to make a profit on anything in sufficient quantities. This is why Honda, the company, is worth more than Rolls-Royce. 
@ADAMANTIUM once pointed out that it is more profitable to invest in mid-grade comics. If the scam was run with those comics, the money per comic is less, but they could still double their money and they'd have higher sales because the lower price point makes the market larger.

[BrashL]

On 12/28/2023 at 12:27 PM, VintageComics said:

Maybe. Maybe not.

But what struck me the most, and that NOBODY has questioned is why he never shows a clear shot of the "properly" sealed edge. 

Sleight of hand to get YouTube views is probably the answer. 

LOL. The copium is reaching fatal levels. This dude doesn’t make his money from YouTube. 

[drotto]

On 12/28/2023 at 3:56 PM, BrashL said:

LOL. The copium is reaching fatal levels. This dude doesn’t make his money from YouTube. 

All it needed to show is it was possible with minimal damage, nothing more.  He did that.  We can reasonably expect a person with more practice, and ill iintentions would be much better at it. Plus, it only had to get past the proven lose inspections being done through the reholdering service.  It did not need perfection.

[RonS2112]

On 12/28/2023 at 1:27 PM, VintageComics said:

Maybe. Maybe not.

But what struck me the most, and that NOBODY has questioned is why he never shows a clear shot of the "properly" sealed edge. 

Sleight of hand to get YouTube views is probably the answer. 

The POINT is that in a five minute video, he shows how easy it is to crack a slab leaving virtually no trace.  Now imagine someone who's gotten good at it.  

I mean, do you think that CGC uses a hammer to crack every book they're going to re-slab?  The scammer either learned how CGC re-opens their own slabs or was smart enough to figure it out on his own.  And ImmacualteComics is a chemist by trade, so this should have been right up his alley.  And apparently, it was.

Edited December 28, 2023 by RonS2112

[agamoto]

I mentioned this in another thread, but I'll add it here. 

The CGC response does not cut it. There are federal crimes happening here, likely well into the 6 figures, and that's just ONE person. It is the FBI's job to investigate such crimes and I want to hear CGC tell us. CGC needs to be honest with us AND itself. The issue with their holder and their process means that MANY individuals may have been taking advantage of the loopholes and the fraud could be 10 or 100 times more.

CGC has no authority to ask eBay for sales data, user data, IP addresses, previous ID's... They can't get at instagram posts. They can't look at paypal records, facebook marketplace records, etc. Hiring a private investigator and outside counsel doesn't cut it.

You need to call in the FBI so they can investigate this fraud against CGC AND consumers fully. Only they can get at the full breadth of data that needs to be considered here. That includes examining CGC themselves for possible inside connections that helped this perp, or others to facilitate this fraud.

 

[RonS2112]

On 12/28/2023 at 4:26 PM, agamoto said:

I mentioned this in another thread, but I'll add it here. 

The CGC response does not cut it. There are federal crimes happening here, likely well into the 6 figures, and that's just ONE person. It is the FBI's job to investigate such crimes and I want to hear CGC tell us. CGC needs to be honest with us AND itself. The issue with their holder and their process means that MANY individuals may have been taking advantage of the loopholes and the fraud could be 10 or 100 times more.

CGC has no authority to ask eBay for sales data, user data, IP addresses, previous ID's... They can't get at instagram posts. They can't look at paypal records, facebook marketplace records, etc. Hiring a private investigator and outside counsel doesn't cut it.

You need to call in the FBI so they can investigate this fraud against CGC AND consumers fully. Only they can get at the full breadth of data that needs to be considered here. That includes examining CGC themselves for possible inside connections that helped this perp, or others to facilitate this fraud.

 

Yeesh.....such hyperbole.  CGC has indicated an intent to make this situation right.  Let's give them a chance to do that.  They don't owe you anything else.

If it bugs you that much, learn how to grade your own books, start going to your local cons, and buy raw.  Doesn't get much simpler than that.

[Heronext]

On 12/28/2023 at 4:26 PM, agamoto said:

I mentioned this in another thread, but I'll add it here. 

The CGC response does not cut it. There are federal crimes happening here, likely well into the 6 figures, and that's just ONE person. It is the FBI's job to investigate such crimes and I want to hear CGC tell us. CGC needs to be honest with us AND itself. The issue with their holder and their process means that MANY individuals may have been taking advantage of the loopholes and the fraud could be 10 or 100 times more.

CGC has no authority to ask eBay for sales data, user data, IP addresses, previous ID's... They can't get at instagram posts. They can't look at paypal records, facebook marketplace records, etc. Hiring a private investigator and outside counsel doesn't cut it.

You need to call in the FBI so they can investigate this fraud against CGC AND consumers fully. Only they can get at the full breadth of data that needs to be considered here. That includes examining CGC themselves for possible inside connections that helped this perp, or others to facilitate this fraud.

 

Maybe will be the next step after their private investigators gather the info

Edited December 28, 2023 by Heronext

[agamoto]

On 12/28/2023 at 1:30 PM, RonS2112 said:

Yeesh.....such hyperbole.  CGC has indicated an intent to make this situation right.  Let's give them a chance to do that.  They don't owe you anything else.

If it bugs you that much, learn how to grade your own books, start going to your local cons, and buy raw.  Doesn't get much simpler than that.

 

I've spent dozens of hours scouring through the perps archived sales records from eBay going back to 2006, examined 100's of the dudes submissions and helped identify over a dozen swapped books. I'm in a position to know better about what I'm talking about. You're not. 

[RonS2112]

On 12/28/2023 at 4:35 PM, agamoto said:

 

I've spent dozens of hours scouring through the perps archived sales records from eBay going back to 2006, examined 100's of the dudes submissions and helped identify over a dozen swapped books. I'm in a position to know better about what I'm talking about. You're not. 

You don't need to look at hundreds of comic scans to understand what a company legally owes you as a customer.  Your "demands" sound very shrill and totally unreasonable.

[Mr. Zipper]

On 12/28/2023 at 4:26 PM, agamoto said:

I mentioned this in another thread, but I'll add it here. 

The CGC response does not cut it. There are federal crimes happening here, likely well into the 6 figures, and that's just ONE person. It is the FBI's job to investigate such crimes and I want to hear CGC tell us. CGC needs to be honest with us AND itself. The issue with their holder and their process means that MANY individuals may have been taking advantage of the loopholes and the fraud could be 10 or 100 times more.

CGC has no authority to ask eBay for sales data, user data, IP addresses, previous ID's... They can't get at instagram posts. They can't look at paypal records, facebook marketplace records, etc. Hiring a private investigator and outside counsel doesn't cut it.

You need to call in the FBI so they can investigate this fraud against CGC AND consumers fully. Only they can get at the full breadth of data that needs to be considered here. That includes examining CGC themselves for possible inside connections that helped this perp, or others to facilitate this fraud.

 

I believe your expectations are unrealistically high. The FBI doesn't drop everything and come charging in for consumer fraud cases. It would be many months for them to even look at it, and then many more months, if not years, investigating. IF... and that is a big IF... they opted to pursue it at all. I have knowledge of an auction house that perpetrated millions of dollars of fraud and a boatload of evidence was handed to the FBI on a silver platter. Two years later they decided NOT to pursue it. Frankly, I'd be shocked if they gave two turds about comic book cases being swapped out. 

[Buzzetta]

On 12/28/2023 at 3:44 PM, wombat said:

Yeah, but do you have dirt from Dracula's actual castle?

ohhhhhhh. what series of cards did that come from?

@Cat My Berlin Wall card was pulled from the Baby Boomer Topps set.  That was a fun set of cards to put together. It was a mix of historical events, pop culture and baseball intertwined. 

 

[wombat]

On 12/28/2023 at 4:41 PM, Buzzetta said:

ohhhhhhh. what series of cards did that come from?

@Cat My Berlin Wall card was pulled from the Baby Boomer Topps set.  That was a fun set of cards to put together. It was a mix of historical events, pop culture and baseball intertwined. 

 

It wasn't a card. You guys just made me think of this. 

[pdags]

Turning lemons into lemonade...  Any one else using this as an excuse to take out your slabbed grails and take a close look at them?  I haven't look at a few of my grails in over a year.  Looking at them is reminding me why I like collecting; which I needed after the past week of disgruntlment.

Good news is, my most prized possession matches the CGC grader's notes.

 

[agamoto]

On 12/28/2023 at 1:37 PM, RonS2112 said:

You don't need to look at hundreds of comic scans to understand what a company legally owes you as a customer.  Your "demands" sound very shrill and totally unreasonable.

You do understand that this individual committed fraud, right? Not just misrepresenting his books to CGC, but by selling his frankenstein creations on eBay, Instagram and wherever else he sold. It's wire fraud, and his sales that I've added up alone that are well into the 6 figures. Wire fraud is under the domain of the FBI to investigate, not the CGC or their private investigators and outside counsel, do you not get that? 

[pdags]

On 12/28/2023 at 4:26 PM, agamoto said:

You need to call in the FBI so they can investigate this fraud against CGC AND consumers fully.

Look at my past few posts...  That's exactly what I was trying to get at.  Is the FBI involved?  A "private investigator" and more "council" is insufficient.  I hope they are working with law enforcement and are being legally advised to not mention it... but we don't know.

[RonS2112]

On 12/28/2023 at 4:47 PM, agamoto said:

You do understand that this individual committed fraud, right? Not just misrepresenting his books to CGC, but by selling his frankenstein creations on eBay, Instagram and wherever else he sold. It's wire fraud, and his sales that I've added up alone that are well into the 6 figures. Wire fraud is under the domain of the FBI to investigate, not the CGC or their private investigators and outside counsel, do you not get that? 

I perfectly get it.  Read your own words -- if it's not within CGCs domain, it CERTAINLY isn't within yours.  No one owes you a thing.

And here's a bit of news.  If it is "only" six figures, then there's a good chance that the FBI won't waste the time to prosecute this; it simply isn't worth the time it would take.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/28/2023 at 3:52 PM, RonS2112 said:

I perfectly get it.  Read your own words -- if it's not within CGCs domain, it CERTAINLY isn't within yours.  No one owes you a thing.

And here's a bit of news.  If it is "only" six figures, then there's a good chance that the FBI won't waste the time to prosecute this; it simply isn't worth the time it would take.

I thought the same, if you say yourself cgc isn't a victim, it's not up to them to call FBI?

Idk enough to that extant, but would hope it would be worth it on whoever's time, more than a civil case maybe?

Edited December 28, 2023 by ADAMANTIUM
Worth it

[ADAMANTIUM]

I like how the investigators are looking into "cgc process too", that might turn out what legal right cgc has to pursue

[agamoto]

On 12/28/2023 at 1:41 PM, Mr. Zipper said:

I believe your expectations are unrealistically high. The FBI doesn't drop everything and come charging in for consumer fraud cases. It would be many months for them to even look at it, and then many more months, if not years, investigating. IF... and that is a big IF... they opted to pursue it at all. I have knowledge of an auction house that perpetrated millions of dollars of fraud and a boatload of evidence was handed to the FBI on a silver platter. Two years later they decided NOT to pursue it. Frankly, I'd be shocked if they gave two turds about comic book cases being swapped out. 

My expectations are quite simple. This guy defrauded people out of their actual cash. He didn't just harm CGC and their reputation by swapping out books. I don't care what your personal anecdote is about. Maybe they thought the person who came forth with the information wasn't reliable, or the evidence itself was anecdotal and not actionable. None of that matters. The only absolute truth here is that the FBI can't investigate any crime if they're not contacted about it. ESPECIALLY when there is very concerning evidence with the high rate of 9.8 grades granted to the perp's submissions and some of the mind-bending speeds with which some of his books were processed and returned to him. He has books that were sold on eBay the same day they are marked as being graded in the CGC census. Do you know that? 

[drotto]

On 12/28/2023 at 4:48 PM, pdags said:

Look at my past few posts...  That's exactly what I was trying to get at.  Is the FBI involved?  A "private investigator" and more "council" is insufficient.  I hope they are working with law enforcement and are being legally advised to not mention it... but we don't know.

CGC has no recourse at this point other than reporting it to the proper authorities.  Unfortunately, as a corporation, they are going to cover their backside, and want to fully understand what their liability and exposure is first, before getting everyone else involved. Not saying it is right, but it is what any company is going to do.