ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[OJ Pimpson]

On 12/28/2023 at 2:37 PM, jsilverjanet said:

Vintage is many things but not a shill

he also won't be able reply anytime soon

Whatever. Attempting to discredit that video with irrelevant nit picks is shill behavior 

Edited December 28, 2023 by OJ Pimpson

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/28/2023 at 4:40 PM, Stefan_W said:

The transition in this thread from "OMG, CGC is not making a statement because they don't care about us, aren't doing anything behind the scenes, and want to protect their own butts" to "OMG, CGC is not pursuing legal channels because they don't care about us, aren't doing anything behind the scenes, and want to protect their own butts" was breathtakingly seamless. 

I blame the YouTube fire and mentality, not to judge, but I too have had to calm down from the news that is just everywhere all the time.

I'm grateful to just sit and wait. Some agencies of mental capacities take patience, not the next big news blurb. I'll bow out for now I guess, unless no one posts in other threads

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by ADAMANTIUM

[Cat]

On 12/29/2023 at 7:41 AM, Buzzetta said:

ohhhhhhh. what series of cards did that come from?

@Cat My Berlin Wall card was pulled from the Baby Boomer Topps set.  That was a fun set of cards to put together. It was a mix of historical events, pop culture and baseball intertwined. 

 

That does sound pretty cool. 

[Stefan_W]

On 12/28/2023 at 5:46 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

I blame the YouTube fire and mentality, not to judge, but I too have had to calm down from the news that is just everywhere all the time.

I'm grateful to just sit and wait. Some agencies of mental capacities take patience, not the next big news blurb. I'll bow out for now I guess, unless no one posts in other threads

 

As an impatient person by nature, I definitely get how hard it is to sit and wait for things to unfold in a situation that impacts on all of us as a community. My own experience being on the other side of the wall when stuff hits the fan and there is a great deal of public scrutiny and I am perfectly fine with assuming there is a beehive of activity with tons of people working hard to find a resolution. Others with different experiences will have different assumptions. 

The biggest thing I always keep in mind with stuff like this is there are actual human beings involved. The scammer is some lazy sleazebag who would rather bilk people out of cash than make an honest living. People who bought those books were hunting personal grails and may have waited their whole lives for the opportunity to pick one up - sometimes stretching their finances to do so. The people at CGC are good folks who were spending their holidays under intense pressure while sorting through records and piecing together the story of what happened using their own paper trail. Some boardies took time out away from their families as well to hunt through photos and sales records to help document what happened. 

Everyone involved is doing their best. I try to limit my impatience to people who suggest they aren't. 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Stefan_W

[agamoto]

On 12/28/2023 at 2:29 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

What I'm confused by then, is why do you want cgc specifically to call? It's been explained to you what they will do, if needed for now, but no one has stated they haven't called. No one has stated they won't

Because at its heart it's a wire fraud case first and foremost and that's in the realm of the FBI. That's my stance as a consumer in this matter. CGC's stakehold is secondary. They are also victims, but of a different kind of fraud. Second, there is evidence that implies possible inside assistance. Third, it is in CGC's best interest to frame what's happened as a lone gunman crime, a rogue submitter/seller. CGC would be sticking its neck out to cop to any evidence that reveals dozens or perhaps 100's of other sellers have been pulling the same trick over the years. We, as the end consumers shelling out the money for these books and services are still the ultimate victims.

On 12/28/2023 at 2:29 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

What has been made public is what cgc will do for themselves and victims, which if you were a victim might be wanted 1st more than seeing a guy whose outed behind bars in the next 30 seconds.

Why is it so important that cgc specifically call? Do you think theyre victims? If so, do you think they should take proper precautions? Do you think if it takes them this long to get it together for you that a bigger organization like the federal bureau of investigation is going to move much faster?

Great! it's about time they had some sort of response. They've got some wonderful plans... However, wouldn't you like to know if there are possibly other individuals pulling the same stunt? The feds have the resources to track that down, to find those patterns. CGC doesn't. Wouldn't you like to know if someone at CGC was looking the other way when it came time to reholder or grade this guys books? I'd like to believe CGC would let us know if that was the case, but it wouldn't be good optics.

On 12/28/2023 at 2:29 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

Take some solace and be patient. No one has argued not to call the FBI. No one is arguing your wrong, so please stop telling us why "cgc should call the FBI."

Patience. What is out of your control is left to the powers that be. There is something to be thankful for and you're not wrong, I was onky trying to remind you there are good things happening and in the order it was received please hold and an agent will be with you shortly 🙏 

They should be calling the feds because this is primarily a wire fraud case. CGC should be calling the FBI because in my experience the FBI listens when 500 million dollar corporations complain about fraud and because CGC can slap the spreadsheet down on the table showing this perp's entire submission history which the feds can then easily correlate and gather evidence from  instagram, ebay and facebook sales.

[PossumGrease]

On 12/28/2023 at 4:34 PM, pdags said:

I've been hesitant to say it, but who is the victim of what in all of this?  As another person said, CGC is going to cover their backsides first.  It's entirely possible a class action law suit comes from this.  People paid premiums for CGC graded comics because they believed they were incredibly difficult if not impossible to tamper with.  Instead, we learned, it's rather trivial.  Did CGC know this and not say anything or mislead their customers?  We can't determine this without a full investigation.  

 

Another wrinkle to consider is that premiums people paid for CGC graded comics were not paid to CGC. CGC only received the encasement costs. I suppose the alleged victim might argue that CGC knew its grading would be relied upon by those down the stream and not just the customer who ordered the case from CGC. but I think a class action claim would be stretch unless the class is composed of people who want their money back for the cost of slabbing (not the premiums paid to a seller

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/28/2023 at 4:55 PM, Stefan_W said:

As an impatient person by nature, I definitely get how hard it is to sit and wait for things to unfold in a situation that impacts on all of us as a community. My own experience being on the other side of the wall when stuff hits the fan and there is a great deal of public scrutiny I am perfectly fine with assuming there is a beehive of activity with tons of people working hard to find a resolution. Others with different experiences will have different assumptions. 

The biggest thing I always keep in mind with stuff like this is there are actual human beings involved. The scammer is some sleazebag who would rather bilk people out of cash than make an honest living. People who bought those books were hunting person grails and may have waited their whole lives for the opportunity to pick one up - sometimes stretching their finances to do so. The people at CGC are good folks who were spending their holidays sorting through records and piecing together the story of what happened using their own paper trail. Some boardies took time out away from their families as well to hunt through photos and sales records to help document what happened. 

Everyone involved is doing their best. I try to only get impatient with people who suggest they aren't. 

That's the first thing on my mind, low and slow ~ Beastie Boys, that is the tempo.

I'm sure the victims are happy to get compensated first rather than CGC acted like a jilted person come after with fire and desperate brimstone.

As for the sleaze, I'm sure he's going through it waiting for the hammer.

I would think authorities are involved, at this level of fraud and reimbursement. It never entered my mind that they were not.

It's a nitpick thing but understandable give ln the lengths gone to and the stress of boardies looking up books.

There are only so many times you can say breathe patience and etc

[Stefan_W]

On 12/28/2023 at 6:02 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

That's the first thing on my mind, low and slow ~ Beastie Boys, that is the tempo.

I'm sure the victims are happy to get compensated first rather than CGC acted like a jilted person come after with fire and desperate brimstone.

As for the sleaze, I'm sure he's going through it waiting for the hammer.

I would think authorities are involved, at this level of fraud and reimbursement. It never entered my mind that they were not.

It's a nitpick thing but understandable give ln the lengths gone to and the stress of boardies looking up books.

There are only so many times you can say breathe patience and etc

Nothing was directed at you, I was just giving my own approach to all of this that helps cope with waiting  

[jsilverjanet]

On 12/28/2023 at 4:44 PM, OJ Pimpson said:

Whatever. Attempting to discredit that video with irrelevant nit picks is shill behavior 

i agree that the video is a great tool and i appreciate the effort the creator took to make it

[The Lions Den]

On 12/17/2023 at 3:10 AM, Timed said:

Seller is dodgy for sure, but need to question CGC as well. How could that NM 9.8 pass as a 9.8? Same with his other books as well. Many 9.4-looking grails getting a 9.8. On normal grading or even a reholder, some defects are just too obvious to miss.

[agamoto]

On 12/28/2023 at 2:46 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

I blame the YouTube fire and mentality, not to judge, but I too have had to calm down from the news that is just everywhere all the time.

I'm grateful to just sit and wait. Some agencies of mental capacities take patience, not the next big news blurb. I'll bow out for now I guess, unless no one posts in other threads

 

Well that's the interesting thing... I haven't given two turds what youtubers are saying as most of them just regurgitate other videos, conflate different things and haven't gone anywhere near into the depth of this situation as we have on this forum. I've been involved in this investigation to a greater detail than most.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/28/2023 at 5:04 PM, Stefan_W said:

Nothing was directed at you, I was just giving my own approach to all of this that helps cope with waiting  

It's going to take time, no one is saying don't call the authorities. I was first to respond way back when that litigation needs to be at the forefront.

Unfortunately right now them discussing is probably a liability, it takes time.

No worries just venting myself 

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/28/2023 at 5:06 PM, agamoto said:

Well that's the interesting thing... I haven't given two turds what youtubers are saying as most of them just regurgitate other videos, conflate different things and haven't gone anywhere near into the depth of this situation as we have on this forum. I've been involved in this investigation to a greater detail than most.

Yes. No one disagrees. No need to spin wheels. 100 miles an hour isn't going to move the needle. It's why watching the videos period is diluting, I never doubted you, it's a mentality that takes effect. If you're immune then go get them. Was trying to alleviate but unsuccessfully. Carry on

[CAHokie]

On 12/28/2023 at 4:26 PM, agamoto said:

I mentioned this in another thread, but I'll add it here. 

The CGC response does not cut it. There are federal crimes happening here, likely well into the 6 figures, and that's just ONE person. It is the FBI's job to investigate such crimes and I want to hear CGC tell us. CGC needs to be honest with us AND itself. The issue with their holder and their process means that MANY individuals may have been taking advantage of the loopholes and the fraud could be 10 or 100 times more.

CGC has no authority to ask eBay for sales data, user data, IP addresses, previous ID's... They can't get at instagram posts. They can't look at paypal records, facebook marketplace records, etc. Hiring a private investigator and outside counsel doesn't cut it.

You need to call in the FBI so they can investigate this fraud against CGC AND consumers fully. Only they can get at the full breadth of data that needs to be considered here. That includes examining CGC themselves for possible inside connections that helped this perp, or others to facilitate this fraud.

 

You don’t just “call in” the FBI. Even if something falls into their jurisdiction, they have to decide to run with a case based on their internal guidelines, priorities, and manpower. A couple million dollars is pocket change compared to a lot of crimes out there.  It doesn’t mean local police or another agency wont pick it up, but the more info CGC can learn first, the better.

[Mephisto]

On 12/28/2023 at 5:34 PM, OJ Pimpson said:

This is utter nonsense. You want badly to see this person as a bad actor or charlatan, when in fact this video is a great service to the community. The video clearly demonstrates that with a modest amount of patience and effort these slabs can be compromised. Now, instead of only the scammers being aware of this, we all are, and it will further pressure CGC to make the security upgrades needed to protect against tampering. His video has 8k views which likely amounts to a YouTube ad rev check for less than the change you have rattling around in your pockets and the stuff he sells on his website is so niche I doubt he breaks even on any of it. He’s just a guy that loves science and comics and there is no reason to doubt his intentions. You on the other hand are a clear shill

This was legitimately one of the funniest things I have read on these boards. Roy has been on the boards for nearly 20 years and has over 100K posts. Sure he wears a tin foil hat but a shill…

[CAHokie]

On 12/28/2023 at 6:16 PM, Mephisto said:

This was legitimately one of the funniest things I have read on these boards. Roy has been on the boards for nearly 20 years and has over 100K posts. Sure he wears a tin foil hat but a shill…

If he tried to be a shill, it would be obvious by the first 5,000 word post. Agreed, that’s  not his style. If he types something, he wants you to know it’s from him. Lol

[pdags]

On 12/28/2023 at 6:01 PM, PossumGrease said:

Another wrinkle to consider is that premiums people paid for CGC graded comics were not paid to CGC.

I didn't even think about that.  This whole event has my head wrapped around the layers of possible issues.  It would be nice to know an unbiased, third party was involved in its resolution (the FBI in this case).  

I've honestly found all of this to be highly fascinating.

 

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/28/2023 at 5:01 PM, PossumGrease said:

Another wrinkle to consider is that premiums people paid for CGC graded comics were not paid to CGC. CGC only received the encasement costs. I suppose the alleged victim might argue that CGC knew its grading would be relied upon by those down the stream and not just the customer who ordered the case from CGC. but I think a class action claim would be stretch unless the class is composed of people who want their money back for the cost of slabbing (not the premiums paid to a seller

That might give cgc provenance in a case but would be chump change compare to reimbursement (stating the obvious). Which may give them precedent in leading with the case, which is why I guess it is important for "cgc specifically to head up litigation" as I guess mentioned a fortune 500 company etc.

It's why I never doubted full extent of law meant just that. Explaining why they only told us pertinent info would be speculation on my part and for that I apologize 

[THE_BEYONDER]

So….

Any recent YouTube videos worth watching?

[jsilverjanet]

On 12/28/2023 at 5:57 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

So….

Any recent YouTube videos worth watching?