ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Tom789]

On 12/28/2023 at 6:45 PM, Dbear67 said:

Amazing Spider-Man #252 Marvel Comics May 1984 CGC 9.8 Near Mint + White Pages! | eBay, this one looked fishy to me. It does not match the picture on CGC. 

I'm not convinced they're not the same book.  There are a couple of seeming discrepancies, possibly because they are different photos, but some things line up exactly:

1. Staple positions and wear are the same.

2. The slant of the Marvel logo box is the same relative to the top edge.

3. The cut along the edges relative to the artwork look identical.

4. There is a cb spine tick in the same place left of the girl's right arm.

[Imperare]

Perhaps the list of potentially compromised books should be the entire CGC census considering the recent YouTube video demonstrating how to open a slab, replace the book and convincingly reseal it, no reholdering necessary .

Edited December 29, 2023 by Imperare

[migmtl76]

@CGC Mike Is CGC sending an email statement to all members or is it only being posted on this forum, Instagram, Facebook and the CGC website ? Thank you

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by RockMyAmadeus

[pdags]

On 12/28/2023 at 11:31 PM, JC25427N said:

This is a huge criminal case, not a small one.

This.

On 12/28/2023 at 11:19 PM, paqart said:

The argument is that by allowing the scam through negligence on their part, the overall value of CGC's guarantee is reduced, thus affecting all customers.

and This.  

The problem is because it's been made clear just how easy it is to open a case, due diligence by CGC could be questioned.  How can they claim they tested the security of their cases internally and/or by third party when something as simple as heat and prying could get the job done?  That's the first thing you test and borders on negligence or incompetence.  Even worse, what if they knew it was that easy and didn't inform their customers.

Now, as far as I can tell, everyone here is giving CGC the benefit of the doubt on this.  Nobody is calling for the FBI to raid them, etc., but we/I want to see urgency and above board action on it.  Their announcement was a good step, but more could be done.

 

[LOC Collectibles]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:47 PM, paqart said:

I'm just calling it as I see it. Unless CGC knowingly participated, and I see no indication of that, they are victims also. This is true even if one or more employees did this on their own. It isn't good, but it doesn't create criminal culpability. It does create a civil responsibility to make customers whole, which they've already agreed to do.

This isn't a cheap example of lip service. If they follow through on what @CGC Mike posted, they will have done as much as they could. Imagine the so far unknown cost to CGC on this. Someone buys an IH 181 with a missing page for $10k. CGC buys it from him for $10k. The comic is worth maybe $1k. That's a dead loss of $9k for CGC, and then it gets multiplied by the number of comics involved, minus the few sellers who decide to keep the comics. They might be able to recover from the scammer, but it will cost hefty legal fees to get there. It might not be worth it.

In the end, the victim that loses the most in this scenario is CGC, not any given collector.

This is not an empty gesture at all.

How did you ever come to this conclusion? I keep seeing people say how there are so many scammers and CGC was taken advantage of. What am I missing here? Weren't there scammers when CGC started? If my product has a flaw that risks the integrity of my product, I don't point fingers at scammers when that flaw is exposed, I fix the flaw. CGC's cases have been lacking in security features for years. I'm shocked it took this long for a scandal to surface and I feel this might be a lot bigger than what a lot of people are making it out to be. 

[comeaux]

On 12/28/2023 at 11:14 PM, LOC Collectibles said:

 I don't point fingers at scammers when that flaw is exposed, I fix the flaw. CGC's cases have been lacking in security features for years. I'm shocked it took this long for a scandal to surface and I feel this might be a lot bigger than what a lot of people are making it out to be. 

I agree, it’s the tip of the iceberg and will eventually be much bigger. 

 

 

 

[pdags]

On 12/29/2023 at 12:15 AM, BrashL said:

New video from Immaculate Comics.

And there goes the other 1/3rd of my slabbed collection.  Time to go to the beach and start collecting skipping rocks.  

[brute_nm]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:34 PM, pdags said:

Time to go to the beach and start collecting skipping rocks.  

I bet your slabs would skip pretty well 

Edited December 29, 2023 by brute_nm

[paqart]

On 12/29/2023 at 12:14 AM, LOC Collectibles said:

How did you ever come to this conclusion? I keep seeing people say how there are so many scammers and CGC was taken advantage of. What am I missing here? Weren't there scammers when CGC started? If my product has a flaw that risks the integrity of my product, I don't point fingers at scammers when that flaw is exposed, I fix the flaw. CGC's cases have been lacking in security features for years. I'm shocked it took this long for a scandal to surface and I feel this might be a lot bigger than what a lot of people are making it out to be. 

I haven't said anything about fixing the flaw, but CGC has stated they're already working on that. What do you expect? Dynamite-proof transparent steel safes? There is no way they can deal with all potential future scams. They can deal with the ones they are aware of, and try to predict some in the future. That's it. Their grading guarantee has to do with comics they grade, not a sneaky scammer getting something reholdered without getting regraded.

CGC can't guarantee something after it leaves their hands. They're on the hook for this because they made a mistake by reholdering the wrong comics. That is the extent of their liability. Once the list of affected slabs is published, along with an offer to buy back any comic on the list for the original purchase price, they've gone as far as they can go. Expecting more is unreasonable.

The key to this is the list of affected comics. It is in CGC's interest to make the list as comprehensive as possible, even if some of the comics turn out to be ok. If it was me, I'd put everything from the scammer on the list, no matter what it is.

[migmtl76]

200 pages before saturday !!! 

[wombat]

It certainly seems like extreme negligence that there is such an easy way to crack open the slabs and seal them back up where even CGC doesn't spot it. What kind of testing did they do on these slabs? It wasn't rocket surgery at the end of the day. And shouldn't they have had experts who know about this kind of thing? Their entire business model and product is completely worthless if it can be easily tampered with. 

[Imperare]

What’s the remedy? CGC can’t possibly afford to recall millions of slabs.

[namisgr]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:10 PM, agamoto said:

Agreed, that book in the census and the one on the ebay ad really do look noticeably different. A look at the entire submission group of 9 books shows a secret wars 8 9.8 that's iffy too and a gift grade 9.6 ASM 300, but it doesn't follow the pattern of our fella. He usually submits groups of 5 books, every couple of weeks since mid 2022. The ad on ebay doesn't jive with our fella's ad copy at all, and different camera/backgrounds/reflections.  Could be the first instance of ANOTHER seller pulling the same stunt. 

Can't rule out that another seller bought the tampered slab from the perp, and is now off-loading it seeing as how the comic doesn't justify the grade.  I bet that's happened quite a few times with these comics, as buyers receive their tampered books and are appalled at how they look for their assigned grades.  Lately I've been buying the occasional slabbed bronze book in order to crack them out, and have found a couple coming out of the newest slab iteration that look significantly worse than what would be expected for the grade on the label.  I'd attributed it to grading inconsistency at CGC, but now wonder if one or more of them are the result of tampering.

It's highly likely that some of these tampered comics have been sold again in the marketplace, and the new owners are not the ones who bought them directly from the perpetrator.  This is why it's going to be vitally important for CGC to release the certification numbers for all books that were submitted either for grading or reholdering by the fraudster.

Edited December 29, 2023 by namisgr

[agamoto]

On 12/28/2023 at 9:42 PM, paqart said:

 

The key to this is the list of affected comics. It is in CGC's interest to make the list as comprehensive as possible, even if some of the comics turn out to be ok. If it was me, I'd put everything from the scammer on the list, no matter what it is.

Unfortunately, impossible. Even if they stuck just to the scammers taking advantage of the swap and reholder/relabel scam, only one guy has been nabbed at it, and only because he got greedy, only because he left a greasy fingerprint over every single comic book sale he's made on eBay for over a decade. Other scammers, with more intelligence and tact would have been smart enough to stay under the radar, at least I'd like to think that's the case.

Then you have to consider just how easy it is to get in and out of the case. I think folks like Dr. Rick are making it appear easier than it is and that hasn't really helped. As he's made clear though, it's just a proof of concept video.

I'm pretty sure that once that sonic weld is busted on the slab, the light refraction properties of that seal go out the window, even with a solvent to the rescue to try and smooth it out. Those pics you see in the census lookups. I think we're only seeing images under white light. I suspect they are checking the seal integrity of the slab, perhaps even able to identify a signature of sorts where the ultrasonic welder bonds the sides using other parts of the spectrum. You'll notice the light blue/purple opaque line on the edge all the way around. That's the intact weld. A lot of census images show several white bands on the side they place the slab next to. These lines are likely visible or distorted when a slab has been cracked and opened and I don't think a little xylene is enough to repair that. 

[Yorick]

If you've followed these last 192 pages, you will understand that it is easy to take the books out and make some changes.

The incredibly fast turn-arounds while the books are at CGC are likely due to "walk-thru" grading due to the value of the books.

My lack-of-understanding is now: how can I change the graders notes for the serial number I've just swapped to match the new book I've just put in its place?

Is it easy to hack the census/registry?

Nice work @agamoto 

[OJ Pimpson]

CGC is very fortunate their only real competition is an underfunded incompetent company owned by the the most incompetent company in the collectables world, Beckett. 

[Mr. Zipper]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:19 PM, agamoto said:

Actually, I take it back, it does look like the same book, just different lighting catching the top edge and washing out the white around the price. Note the nick in the spine to the immediate left of the girl's wrist. With the top edge wear and that abraded corner, how the eff did this score so high? 

Yes, they are the same book. The two spine ticks are identical. Any difference is due to different lighting. 

[pdags]

Me holding onto my lone PGX case...

 

[WolverineX]

On 12/28/2023 at 7:37 PM, CAHokie said:

CGC is going to have to figure out how to deal with those that were scammed and many that fear they were, even if it’s not the case (no pun). 

For now, it should just be limited to books that have been reholdered which is a tiny percentage.  Plus they know the scammer's acccount.  This is probably a blessing disguise if it's only one bad actor.