ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/29/2023 at 5:59 PM, paqart said:

CGC was put on the hook for damages. They are victims also.

That's kind of hard to prove is anyone's fault but their own

[EastEnd1]

On 12/29/2023 at 6:56 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

No it is pretty determined.  The hobby will move on just like it always does.

Acting like hundreds of people were doing this is absurd on thousands of slabs.

First off the old CGC label was a million times easier to switch books out, did you know that?

This scammer had the tools, skill, and the money to pull this off.  Most collectors dont have the know how, technique, or discipline to pull this off.

Think about this logically if you were the scammer would you tell many people how do it?  That would be really dumb, no?

 

Have you seen the videos posted in the last few days of how to do it?  And have you noticed how EASY it is?  Take a look at how many people have viewed these videos since they were released... 10k in TWO days on the CGC holder.  This has less to do with who's already done it.  It has EVERYTHING to do with how many can potentially do it going forward with 7-8 million susceptible slabs.  Once the trust in CGC is gone, it's game over for the slab gold rush, my friend. 

Edited December 30, 2023 by EastEnd1

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/29/2023 at 6:04 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

It doenst happen all the time, but it will happen every so often and again in the future in some capacity.

Always scammers out there, why would comics be immune?

Facts 💯 

[comeaux]

On 12/29/2023 at 5:59 PM, RonS2112 said:

And you must have fallen asleep when the pictures were shown of a Hulk 181 with a Blue 9.0 label that nonetheless looked like it had been run over by a car a few times.

I see reading is not one of your strong attributes, it’s fine, try closing your mouth and breath through your nose, you’ll be fine. 

I questioned if the scammer was using mechanical damage submissions on any of his scams. I believe the 181’s were done through general reholder submissions but I appreciated the response anyway. 

[RonS2112]

On 12/29/2023 at 7:05 PM, EastEnd1 said:

Have you seen the videos posted in the last few days of how to do it?  And have you noticed how EASY it is?  

Why would you think it would/should be HARD for anyone who had precise knowledge of the technique for opening a slab?  I mean, it's not like CGC employees doing reholdering want to use a hammer to get a book out of a slab.  THere was ALWAYS going to be an easy way to get a book out that presented low risk to the book itself.  And if you think about it, it took YEARS for one technique to be made public.

Like it or not, this sort of thing is often times the cost of doing business on a large scale.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/29/2023 at 6:05 PM, EastEnd1 said:

Have you seen the videos posted in the last few days of how to do it?  And have you noticed how EASY it is?  Take a look at how many people have viewed these videos since they were released... 10k in TWO days on the CGC holder.  This has less to do with who's already done it.  It has EVERYTHING to do with how many can potentially do it going forward with 7-8 million susceptible slabs.  Once the trust in CGC is gone, it's game over for slab gold rush, my friend. 

He's stating that all that should be common knowledge and if it wasn't, it should be and now is or will be again.

Not dismissing the uproar, but like many trying to speak of the realities and to times past that have been proven to be but a flesh wound. It is something to learn from those who've experienced and had knowledge of, and ahem didn't act maliciously with that information .

If this Brees person has been selling as far back as 2006, he might have been around for the ewert scandal, he saw that fallout, and onky thought it profitable to take up where ewert left off.

[NewWorldOrder]

On 12/29/2023 at 4:05 PM, EastEnd1 said:

Have you seen the videos posted in the last few days of how to do it?  And have you noticed how EASY it is?  Take a look at how many people have viewed these videos since they were released... 10k in TWO days on the CGC holder.  This has less to do with who's already done it.  It has EVERYTHING to do with how many can potentially do it going forward with 7-8 million susceptible slabs.  Once the trust in CGC is gone, it's game over for slab gold rush, my friend. 

I think you are over simplifying it.

You do realize most people are lazy in the world right?

Lead a horse to water etc.

BTW of that 7-8 million slabs most were not worth going to CGC in the first place.

The real scam is just how many people lack the basic knowledge of sending books to CGC that even cover case cost to begin with.

[RonS2112]

On 12/29/2023 at 7:12 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

The real scam is just how many people lack the basic knowledge of sending books to CGC that even cover case cost to begin with.

The amount of modern cr*p encased in slabs these days would indicate that this number is pretty low indeed.

Edited December 30, 2023 by RonS2112

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/29/2023 at 6:00 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

I said boardies are better detectives than most Youtubers.

 

We're there YouTube videos around the ewert scandal? If the same kind of deal, word of mouth may have grown or the amount of collectors either collecting or affected may differ. There are a lot of variables let's say, that'll play out that will be interesting.

In the case of cgc and the reimbursement? Will they look at the label and refund or replace the book?

We've already had some weigh in that their 9.0 was an 8.0 switched or something to that effect, but more importantly both grades are now worth way more than they paid! They might want the grade or the 9.0 they paid for at no extra cost!

Edited December 30, 2023 by ADAMANTIUM

[NewWorldOrder]

I understand this is a CGC issue first and foremost, but as a buyer wouldn't you see that eBay seller has been selling a lot of very difficult copper books to obtain in

CGC 9.8 Grade

Newsstand Edition

Canadian Price Variant

Mark Jewelers insert

in a very short time period and think to yourself something strange is going on here.

Even before this story broke I remember scrolling though (pre-set eBay CGC 9.8 $200 and higher) eBay completed auctions and seeing these and thinking to myself this is very odd someone would have all these tough books in such high grade so quickly.

[William-James88]

On 12/29/2023 at 5:58 PM, brute_nm said:

I imagine the "reholder dept" is neither trained in grading nor have the clout to second-guess the assigned grade. They simply open the holder, grab a new one of the shelf, and close it up. Rinse repeat for 8hr shift.

But then that goes against what CGC states on their website regarding reholders. If what you suggest is true, then CGC is lying to their customers. 

On 12/29/2023 at 6:14 PM, comeaux said:

Rookie YouTubers & back seat graders discovered fraud that CGC “experts” failed to find 

To be fair, tons of people second guess CGC every day. This just happened to actually be a scam this time.

On 12/29/2023 at 6:37 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

Yup.

This loophole while obviously not good is going to be closed (we hope).

Ewert was the 9/11 of the hobby.

What loophole? All evidence we have shows the scammer went through the proper channels,  requesting a reholder like anyone else,  putting the comic at risk of a regrade  which puts the blame solely on CGC.

On 12/29/2023 at 6:59 PM, paqart said:

CGC was put on the hook for damages. They are victims also.

I can't tell which scam that comment refers to,  but if it is regarding this current scandal then no they are not victims. They are at least unknowing accomplices.

[BrashL]

On 12/29/2023 at 6:23 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

I understand this is a CGC issue first and foremost, but as a buyer wouldn't you see that eBay seller has been selling a lot of very difficult copper books to obtain in

CGC 9.8 Grade

Newsstand Edition

Canadian Price Variant

Mark Jewelers insert

in a very short time period and think to yourself something strange is going on here.

Even before this story broke I remember scrolling though (pre-set eBay CGC 9.8 $200 and higher) eBay completed auctions and seeing these and thinking to myself this is very odd someone would have all these tough books in such high grade so quickly.

For most buyers, the value of CGC is that they don't have to do that. What it says on the label is supposed to be what's inside; that's the only real value they provide at the end of the day. If a buyer has to take one additional step, why bother. We'll see what happens with sales and submissions in the next month but this isn't going away and CGC has some difficult decisions to make in the coming weeks. 

[wombat]

I think most people would assume that if in fact a slab had been tampered with and cracked open and sealed back up it would at least appear to be obvious. I don't think anyone is assuming a slab can't be cracked open. That would just be silly. 

[ADAMANTIUM]

Ya no one put cgc "on the hook" Lol

Their doing it out of the kindness of their heart, to paraphrase bless their heart.

But seriously, it is a good quality thing for them to do, and I sincerely give cgc the kudos for being brave. I would hope it doesn't take this large a scale, but I've mostly seen cgc NOT sweep things under the rug. Most always they do what's right, or at Least TRY! AND I RESPECT THEM FOR IT

There will always be cinics, and there is only so much people will forgive or not let bother them. Every tipping point will differ from person to person.

In the way that cgc doesn't condone such behavior seems they are taken advantage of, we'll see if it turns into victim status but again might take the legal services to do so.

Edited December 30, 2023 by ADAMANTIUM

[NewWorldOrder]

On 12/29/2023 at 4:23 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

We're there YouTube videos around the ewert scandal? If the same kind of deal, word of mouth may have grown or the amount of collectors either collecting or affected may differ. There are a lot of variables let's say, that'll play out that will be interesting.

In the case of cgc and the reimbursement? Will they look at the label and refund or replace the book?

We've already had some weigh in that their 9.0 was an 8.9 switched or something to that effect, but more importantly both grades are now worth way more than they paid! They might want the grade or the 9.0 they paid for at no extra cost!

No they were not.  That was my point before that if the Jason Ewert scandal happened today the panic clicks would dwarf this one.  No one is saying this isnt serious, what some of us are saying you can really fix this more so than what Ewert did.

I remember years ago buying a old label ASM 129 CGC 9.4 from a well know dealer (now banished basically), and I for sure disagreed with the grade.  Between me and another well know dealer we determined someone at some point (couldnt prove it was the dealer I bought it from) switched out a CGC 9.4 copy and replaced with a CGC 9.0.   They switched out the label and then the case.    I mean it was nuts.  You also didnt need tools.  Again what this current person(s) did was way more difficult in scale.

CGC just like any business is an ever evolving business entity.  Right now something bad happened and they have to fix it, which they acknowledged, and they will have to eat some money to make some of the sales victims of the fraud whole just like they did with the Ewert scandal.

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by NewWorldOrder

[LordRahl]

On 12/29/2023 at 4:05 PM, EastEnd1 said:

Have you seen the videos posted in the last few days of how to do it?  And have you noticed how EASY it is?  Take a look at how many people have viewed these videos since they were released... 10k in TWO days on the CGC holder.  This has less to do with who's already done it.  It has EVERYTHING to do with how many can potentially do it going forward with 7-8 million susceptible slabs.  Once the trust in CGC is gone, it's game over for the slab gold rush, my friend. 

I'm not trying to downplay this but I will bet dollars to donuts this exact same thing was said in the Ewert thread. 

[NewWorldOrder]

On 12/29/2023 at 4:37 PM, BrashL said:

For most buyers, the value of CGC is that they don't have to do that. What it says on the label is supposed to be what's inside; that's the only real value they provide at the end of the day. If a buyer has to take one additional step, why bother. We'll see what happens with sales and submissions in the next month but this isn't going away and CGC has some difficult decisions to make in the coming weeks. 

Most people that own CGC slabs or collect comics dont even know what is going on currently.

Now I will agree that more people know more today because of social media than with just with the CGC boards being the big news spreader from the early 2000's, but that being said it still not as big as you think.  I bet you if I messaged the last 50 people via ebay that I sold a slab to maybe 15-20% would say they are aware and 90% of that number dont know the full details.

On 12/29/2023 at 4:44 PM, LordRahl said:

I'm not trying to downplay this but I will bet dollars to donuts this exact same thing was said in the Ewert thread. 

It was much worse.  Plus wasnt there like 10-20 threads about this over a 4 year period?

Sky was falling faster than when Germany invaded Poland.

Edited December 30, 2023 by NewWorldOrder

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/29/2023 at 6:40 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

No they were not.  That was my point before that if the Jason Ewert scandal happened today the panic clicks would dwarf this one.  No one is saying this isnt serious, what some of us are saying you can really fix this more so than what Ewert did.

I remember years ago buying a old label ASM 129 CGC 9.4 from a well know dealer (now banished basically), and I for sure disagreed with the grade.  Between me and another well know dealer we determined someone at some point (couldnt prove it was the dealer I bought it from) switched out a CGC 9.4 copy and replaced with a CGC 9.0.   They switched out the label and then the case.    I mean it was nuts.  You also didnt need tools.  Again what this current person(s) did was way more difficult in scale.

CGC just like any business is an ever evolving business entity.  Right now something bad happened and they have to fix it, which they acknowledged, and they will have to eat some money to make some of the sales victims of the fraud whole end just like they did with the Ewert scandal.

 

That I can believe. 

 

On 12/29/2023 at 6:44 PM, LordRahl said:

I'm not trying to downplay this but I will bet dollars to donuts this exact same thing was said in the Ewert thread. 

This too.

What I find difficult is that the fix is easy or only monetary. All I've heard so far is people will forget or a new case, but that as yall are stating as well, doesn't fix the 20 or so year slab generation. My thought was with word of mouth being more cost effective, that those 20 years seems like a shot in the dark. 

All comes down to how patient I want to be to see the "fix play out" and how universally effective. Sure itll go back to normal or close, but how long are we talking? This to play out in court or whatever is at least probably another year. But thanks for clarifying! Yall had, but it was in between my walls of text!

Edited December 30, 2023 by ADAMANTIUM

[wombat]

This seems like some weird flexing about which scandal is worse. You kids and your scandals today. Back in my day.............

[Heronext]

On 12/29/2023 at 6:18 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

Pretty sure if was first discovered here on the boards no?

CGC boards have the best comic book detectives in the world.

 Most of the noob low-tier Youtubers are just reaction videos.

There are of course some decent ones, but more often than not they add zero value outside of their own surface level bantering of non-sense.

YouTubers vs Boardies

Parking lot

Midnight tonight