ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Comics]

I am just dropping in and out of this thread but I have been thinking about the long term implications to the hobby. These two articles were part of a mountain of bad news the sports cards collectors rec'd in 20018-19-20. And yet 4-5 years later their hobby is booming. And their issue was completely widespread and affected EVERY CARD. Yes we have (yes, I said have and not had) micro-trimming as well but comics of all grades are a little harder to fix ('allegedly') than cards are. So what does this mean? I feel the industry will be fine. Bruised but fine. For us on this thread it will have lost a bit of lustre but...

A side note - art galleries and auction houses deal with a lot of these issues with provenance - that is essentially what @comicwiz @agamoto and the rest of the fine detectives here have been doing - establishing provenance. I suggest that CGC/CBCS/PGX give every submitter a random ID and make that part of the graders' notes so the public can see their submissions. Transparency. Also once a book is graded maybe there could be a spot for submitters notes where we could say something about a book and where it came from. Personally I know where I bought 95% of the books I have and I am sure the rest of you do too. That's the way our brains are built. Would it be anecdotal? Yes. Would it be perfect? No. Would it help? Yes.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1304673&fbclid=IwAR3lsWMEosKyKwWSMkebNGkhI4xgxzfg1iur2nEM7eQZcWv2d2eGmhgqoqM

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/07/18/baseball-card-collectors-suspected-rampant-fraud-their-hobby-now-fbi-is-investigating/

[Buzzetta]

Thought we were not supposed to mention them. 

Comic Book Station is not just a comic book store, but one that cracks and presses their own books as well.  They are very big into pressing books.  A conversation with a local friend reminded me that when I was encouraging them to submit their books to our premier presser on the boards, they originally told me that they wanted to submit them instead to Comic Book Station as they are blocks away from him.  Our board premier presser eventually received the books and not Comic Book Station. 

[sledgehammer]

On 1/11/2024 at 2:21 PM, wiparker824 said:

I think it’s pretty clear they’ve sold books on the list or at least they’ve claimed to. 

yes, and that's exactly what I said. What I also said, is that so far no one has tied that store to any of the books where there is a different comic book inside of a holder. That's why, at this point attaching them to this scam is premature. 

[Chip Cataldo]

On 1/11/2024 at 4:01 PM, sledgehammer said:

yes, and that's exactly what I said. What I also said, is that so far no one has tied that store to any of the books where there is a different comic book inside of a holder. That's why, at this point attaching them to this scam is premature. 

Do they know that some of these books might have passed through their store?

[GDN]

So far results at Heritage today show the market is very strong.  Record sales on many books.  Certainly no indication that this CGC scandal has had any effect on premium buyers.  Even H181 sold strong although being a 9.8 probably helped as there has been no evidence of that high of grade involved in the scandal.

Biggest takeaway.....early DC Batman and Detective are where to put your $$.

Edited January 11 by GDN

[sledgehammer]

On 1/11/2024 at 3:20 PM, Chip Cataldo said:

Do they know that some of these books might have passed through their store?

some of what books? Four or five-year-old yellow signatures series labels, that show up on their Instagram accounts, or amazing Spider-Man 252 slabs, where a lower grade copy was inserted into a 9.8 label slab?

so far, there is no evidence that there is something wrong with any comic book that has been shown they sold.

it will really suck if they take legal action, that gets everything shut down.

Edited January 11 by sledgehammer

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 1/11/2024 at 3:22 PM, GDN said:

So far results at Heritage today show the market is very strong.  Record sales on many books.  Certainly no indication that this CGC scandal has had any effect on premium buyers.  Even H181 sold strong although being a 9.8 probably helped as there has been no evidence of that high of grade involved in the scandal.

Biggest takeaway.....early DC Batman and Detective are where to put your $$.

I saw the results in the 6-figure thread of some strong realizations, but what did the hulk 181 sell for in 9.8?

[Chip Cataldo]

On 1/11/2024 at 4:26 PM, sledgehammer said:

some of what books? Four or five-year-old yellow signatures, series, labels, that show up on their Instagram accounts, or amazing Spider-Man 252 slabs, where a lower grade copy was inserted into a 9.8 label slab?

so far, there is no evidence that there is something wrong with any comic book that has been shown they sold.

it will really suck if they take legal action, that gets everything shut down.

Ah, I was under the impression that some of the books on the list CGC published had passed through their store and that's what the Instagram account showed.

[sledgehammer]

On 1/11/2024 at 3:27 PM, Chip Cataldo said:

Ah, I was under the impression that some of the books on the list CGC published had passed through their store and that's what the Instagram account showed.

 

some of the books are on the list. The problem is, that many of the books on the list are being cleared. So saying that the store is somehow connected to this, without any proof, that any of the books they have had, that are on the list, were sold fraudulently, could be a legal issue.

Edited January 11 by sledgehammer

[GDN]

On 1/11/2024 at 1:27 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

I saw the results in the 6-figure thread of some strong realizations, but what did the hulk 181 sell for in 9.8?

$72,000

[Chip Cataldo]

On 1/11/2024 at 4:29 PM, sledgehammer said:

 

some of the books are on the list. The problem is, that many of the books on the list are being cleared. So saying that the store is somehow this, without any proof, that any of the books they have had, that are on the list, were sold fraudulently, could be a legal issue.

Right, that's why all I said was "passed through their store" and didn't say anything accusatory.

[sledgehammer]

On 1/11/2024 at 3:30 PM, Chip Cataldo said:

Right, that's why all I said was "passed through their store" and didn't say anything accusatory.

and that's why I asked you, what books you were talking about. The books that were swapped out, so far no one has been able to document that they were in their store. when you quoted me, that was part of what I said.

[Chip Cataldo]

On 1/11/2024 at 4:32 PM, sledgehammer said:

and that's why I asked you, what books you were talking about. The books that were swapped out, so far no one has been able to document that they were in their store. when you quoted me, that was part of what I said.

I didn't have anything specific. I was speaking in general.

[grendel013]

On 1/11/2024 at 4:34 PM, Chip Cataldo said:

I didn't have anything specific. I was speaking in general.

Can I ask another way? How many books on the list were linked to this store either by IG photos or any type of advertising or sales? And then of those books how many have been cleared?

[EastEnd1]

On 1/11/2024 at 4:22 PM, GDN said:

So far results at Heritage today show the market is very strong.  Record sales on many books.  Certainly no indication that this CGC scandal has had any effect on premium buyers.  Even H181 sold strong although being a 9.8 probably helped as there has been no evidence of that high of grade involved in the scandal.

Biggest takeaway.....early DC Batman and Detective are where to put your $$.

I think we have to wait to see some of the books in question come up... the books Heritage has sold so far have been super-premium gold and silver.  Think we might see some of the books that have been targeted with the Jan 13th session.

[agamoto]

On 1/11/2024 at 12:03 PM, MatterEaterLad said:

The shop in question is Comic Book Station in Brooklyn. 

They're very active on social media, and by the photos, it looks like a great shop.

Any connection to the switched comics is alleged at this point, but it appears that they may have sold switched books (perhaps unwittingly).

The heat gun in that one photo is a bad look. The paper cutter, not so much. I have one in my workshop as well, as do lots of people. I don't have a heat gun.

 

The heat gun, while it could be used for poppin' slabs, it could also be used for the rapid evaporation of VOC solvents one might employ in cleaning books. They can also be handy for softening some glues already present on most square bound book spines. 

[sledgehammer]

what is more troubling to me, is that statement that says it APPEARS that they may have sold switched books, perhaps unwittingly.

I don't believe I have seen one indication, on anything online, that indicates that they sold switched books, unwittingly or not. 

At this point, there is more evidence that comiclink sold a book that had been switched, than there is that this store did.

Edited January 11 by sledgehammer

[brute_nm]

On 1/9/2024 at 7:05 AM, brute_nm said:

@CGC Mike this is very concerning. PLEASE ask the team to a) provide criteria of how the list was determined and/or b) update the list to include ALL of the account's submissions.

On 1/10/2024 at 7:37 AM, brute_nm said:

That being said, he had hundreds of submissions without custom labels that are not on the Hot 350 list, which is why I'll ask again for CGC to release the criteria used to generate the list of 350 and/or release his entire submission history. Better to be safe and recheck everything this guy touched.

@CGC Mike

Here is why I keep harping on this point.  I went through the Hot 350 list and found a ton of "holes" - individual cert numbers missing from a single submission batch.  For example, say cert numbers xxx001, xxx003, xxx004 are on the list but xxx002 is not.  I used the census to fill the holes and this is what I came up with: 215 more books

The highlighted column shows the number of books I added (N meaning not on the initial Hot 350 list).

Some highlights

• 1 more ASM 129
• 25 more ASM 194's
• 11 more ASM 252's
• 39 more ASM 300's
• 3 more Hulk 181's
• 4 more Hulk 340's
• 8 more X-Men 266's, including 1 with MJ

We need some clarity on why some books are NOT on the list.  Take ASM 300 for example: why were 86 9.8's on the list but 14 weren't?  What is different about the 14?  How do we know these 14 are "safe" and guaranteed not fraudulent?  There were 3 FF 48's on the list and 3 not on the list; is CGC 100% certain those 3 are OK?  How can you tell?

@CGC Mike, please ask to release the criteria used to generate the list of 350 and/or release his entire submission history. Better to be safe and recheck everything this guy touched.

Edited January 11 by brute_nm

[HighGrade]

On 1/11/2024 at 5:37 PM, brute_nm said:

Here is why I keep harping on this point.  I went through the Hot 350 list and found a ton of "holes" - individual cert numbers missing from a single submission batch.  For example, say cert numbers xxx001, xxx003, xxx004 are on the list but xxx002 is not.  I used the census to fill the holes and this is what I came up with: 215 more books

The highlighted column shows the number of books I added (N meaning not on the initial Hot 350 list).

Some highlights

• 1 more ASM 129
• 25 more ASM 194's
• 11 more ASM 252's
• 39 more ASM 300's
• 3 more Hulk 181's
• 4 more Hulk 340's
• 8 more X-Men 266's, including 1 with MJ

We need some clarity on why some books are NOT on the list.  Take ASM 300 for example: why were 86 9.8's on the list but 14 weren't?  What is different about the 14?  How do we know these 14 are "safe" and guaranteed not fraudulent?  There were 3 FF 48's on the list and 3 not on the list; is CGC 100% certain those 3 are OK?  How can you tell?

@CGC Mike, please ask to release the criteria used to generate the list of 350 and/or release his entire submission history. Better to be safe and recheck everything this guy touched.

These are the original submissions, from what I gather books on the list are just the ones from these submissions that were later reholdered, the others in each of the submissions I assume were never reholdered.  Also some or maybe many of these submissions are not the scammers submissions since reholder subs keep original submission numbers. But would be nice to have a notation of which submissions are the scammers and which are not.

[Sigur Ros]

On 1/11/2024 at 12:21 PM, Dr. Balls said:

Opportunist, maybe a better term? It doesn't take a genius to commit fraud, it takes someone with low moral character and the ability to recognize an opportunity to rip people off. I don't feel that takes a lot of extra brain cells or talent - it's just a dirtbag quality that some people have more in abundance than others.

Can insult him all ya want.  No one here would disagree he's a dirtbag.  But I completely disagree over his intelligence.

He took their own product, added a good story, and they fell for it every time.

Like counterfeiting money and having the US mint give you real cash for the fakes.

Genius.