ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Sigur Ros]

On 1/11/2024 at 2:34 PM, agamoto said:

It reminds me of what Mike Nelson once said about the best restoration he's ever seen, and that's the restoration they didn't catch. 

Like Ewart's trimming.

[mrd160]

On 1/11/2024 at 5:37 PM, brute_nm said:

Here is why I keep harping on this point.  I went through the Hot 350 list and found a ton of "holes" - individual cert numbers missing from a single submission batch.  For example, say cert numbers xxx001, xxx003, xxx004 are on the list but xxx002 is not.  I used the census to fill the holes and this is what I came up with: 215 more books

The highlighted column shows the number of books I added (N meaning not on the initial Hot 350 list).

Some highlights

• 1 more ASM 129
• 25 more ASM 194's
• 11 more ASM 252's
• 39 more ASM 300's
• 3 more Hulk 181's
• 4 more Hulk 340's
• 8 more X-Men 266's, including 1 with MJ

We need some clarity on why some books are NOT on the list.  Take ASM 300 for example: why were 86 9.8's on the list but 14 weren't?  What is different about the 14?  How do we know these 14 are "safe" and guaranteed not fraudulent?  There were 3 FF 48's on the list and 3 not on the list; is CGC 100% certain those 3 are OK?  How can you tell?

@CGC Mike, please ask to release the criteria used to generate the list of 350 and/or release his entire submission history. Better to be safe and recheck everything this guy touched.

 

[360flip]

On 1/11/2024 at 2:37 PM, brute_nm said:

Here is why I keep harping on this point.  I went through the Hot 350 list and found a ton of "holes" - individual cert numbers missing from a single submission batch.  For example, say cert numbers xxx001, xxx003, xxx004 are on the list but xxx002 is not.  I used the census to fill the holes and this is what I came up with: 215 more books

The highlighted column shows the number of books I added (N meaning not on the initial Hot 350 list).

Some highlights

• 1 more ASM 129
• 25 more ASM 194's
• 11 more ASM 252's
• 39 more ASM 300's
• 3 more Hulk 181's
• 4 more Hulk 340's
• 8 more X-Men 266's, including 1 with MJ

We need some clarity on why some books are NOT on the list.  Take ASM 300 for example: why were 86 9.8's on the list but 14 weren't?  What is different about the 14?  How do we know these 14 are "safe" and guaranteed not fraudulent?  There were 3 FF 48's on the list and 3 not on the list; is CGC 100% certain those 3 are OK?  How can you tell?

@CGC Mike, please ask to release the criteria used to generate the list of 350 and/or release his entire submission history. Better to be safe and recheck everything this guy touched.

Did you restrict to submissions that had multiples on the list? For example, these are likely not his submissions:

2102881xxx
2105812xxx
2120143xxx
3694212xxx

He likely just bought these 9.8s to get the 9.8 slab and label to do the swapping.

As opposed to these examples, which show up multiple times, which he likely submitted:

3743694xxx
3752510xxx
3786339xxx

 

Edited January 11 by 360flip

[brute_nm]

On 1/11/2024 at 4:05 PM, 360flip said:

Did you restrict to submissions that had multiples on the list? For example, these are likely not his submissions:

2102881xxx
2105812xxx
2120143xxx
3694212xxx

He likely just bought these 9.8s to get the 9.8 slab and label to do the swapping.

 

Yes, I only attributed submissions to him where there were at least 2 on the Hot 350. I also looked at other books in the submission to make sure they matched his pattern (ASM 194, 300, etc); if the submission had more variety and lower grades, I assumed that he was not the original submitter.

[comicjel]

We have been assuming that the Hot 350 are all the books that have been reholdered by someone that CGC deems possibly related to this scam, and are clearing them by getting books sent to them to check them, but can't CGC start comparing the scans from when they originally graded the books to the new scans from when they were reholdered?  Seems they would not need to wait to get the books to start identifying switched books this way.

If I were CGC, I would have done that step first, to create a shorter list of books that were almost certainly switched.

However, if CGC is seeing signs of tampered holders (maybe in submissions that were in the pipeline for reholdering), then really every comic that this guy has ever had graded should be on the list.  

[comicjel]

On 1/11/2024 at 7:43 AM, wiparker824 said:

another photo from that shop’s IG that should make the heat gun theorists go wild… note the heat gun casually sitting next to all of these mega SA keys in the background.  

I realize that at this moment these are not known to be tainted books at all, and further, it seems that the switch scam would not work (as we know it) with signed books.

Makes me wonder if there is a different loophole that could be exploited when getting books signed?? - I have never had a graded book signed - does CGC regrade books that are getting signed?  If not, do they require the books remain in both holders to avoid regrading and keep the "unsigned" grade?    

Edited January 12 by comicjel
had wrong word "signed" replaced "graded"

[wiparker824]

On 1/11/2024 at 5:35 PM, comicjel said:

I realize that at this moment these are not known to be tainted books at all, and further, it seems that the switch scam would not work (as we know it) with graded books.

Makes me wonder if there is a different loophole that could be exploited when getting books signed?? - I have never had a graded book signed - does CGC regrade books that are getting signed?  If not, do they require the books remain in both holders to avoid regrading and keep the "unsigned" grade?    

Yes CGC regrades a book after it goes thru the signing process. Further, they don’t guarantee grade, so if Stan Lee ripped your AF 15 in half when signing then oh well, you’re about to get a big grade drop. But Stan would never.

[comicjel]

On 1/11/2024 at 7:40 PM, wiparker824 said:

Yes CGC regrades a book after it goes thru the signing process. Further, they don’t guarantee grade, so if Stan Lee ripped your AF 15 in half when signing then oh well, you’re about to get a big grade drop. But Stan would never.

That's makes sense! - thanks!

[OldGuy]

On 1/11/2024 at 12:55 AM, MasterChief said:

Joseph,

I was digging through an old external drive of comic book data files and came across your CGC forum detective badge* awarded many years ago. Unfortunately, I could only find the small version that appears to have been resaved one too many times.

 

Having seen it again I realized just how long you’ve been serving. Amazing work!

That said, and on behalf of your fellow detectives and hobbyists, thank you for 20 years of sustained superior performance and dedicated service to the CGC forum community and the comic book hobby at large. It is truly appreciated!

 

 

____________

* CGC Forum Detective Badges were created and awarded by Brad Hamann (Red Hook) as public recognition for outstanding achievement and other acts or services of consumer protection that were above and beyond what is normally expected of CGC forum members. Criterion for award recommendation and consideration was based upon work performed to bring corruption and dishonesty within the hobby to the forefront, usually through data collection and study, the use of digital scan technology and comparative imagery analysis, and the presentation of findings and conclusions. Service to the general collecting community was a priority for consideration. Former award recipients include: @Rickdogg, @Jeffreykli, @OldGuy, Abrams, @delekkerste, Rosenberg, @Arty, @DiceX, @Davenport, @comicwiz, and MasterChief.

💕

[jokersup]

On 1/11/2024 at 5:35 PM, comicjel said:

I realize that at this moment these are not known to be tainted books at all, and further, it seems that the switch scam would not work (as we know it) with graded books.

Makes me wonder if there is a different loophole that could be exploited when getting books signed?? - I have never had a graded book signed - does CGC regrade books that are getting signed?  If not, do they require the books remain in both holders to avoid regrading and keep the "unsigned" grade?    

Grades can go up too with signings.  I did have an ASM300 8.0 that I had signed/pressed and it came back a 9.0.

[pdags]

On 1/11/2024 at 7:45 PM, jokersup said:

Grades can go up too with signings.

Yeah, I had a 9.6 turn into a 9.8 for one of my childhood grails.  To get a perfect signature and a grade bump made a grown man tear up.  It was beautiful.

 

Edited January 12 by pdags

[comicjel]

On 1/11/2024 at 7:57 PM, pdags said:

Yeah, I had a 9.6 turn into a 9.8 for one of my childhood grails.  To get a perfect signature and a grade bump made a grown man tear up.  It was beautiful.

 

Good reminder that CGC has created many great experiences for me as well - looking forward to getting back to those!!

[pdags]

On 1/11/2024 at 8:08 PM, comicjel said:

Good reminder that CGC has created many great experiences for me as well - looking forward to getting back to those!!

Forgot I could upload pictures.  I'm not a signature person, but I made an exception for this.

Sorry its off topic, but it was a good moment for me made by CGC.

[mrd160]

On 1/11/2024 at 8:08 PM, comicjel said:

Good reminder that CGC has created many great experiences for me as well - looking forward to getting back to those!!

Not a fan. I like it raw

 

 

[brute_nm]

On 1/11/2024 at 6:16 PM, pdags said:

Forgot I could upload pictures.  I'm not a signature person, but I made an exception for this.

Sorry its off topic, but it was a good moment for me made by CGC.

The rug in the lower pic gives me PTSD

[mrd160]

I will never buy anything with a rug background again…not sneakers, not handbags, not hummels 

[mrd160]

I want to be clear, I am not accusing that rug of anything. It is quite possible the rug is a victim as well

[mrd160]

I don’t want to speculate on an innocent carpet 

[pdags]

On 1/11/2024 at 8:21 PM, brute_nm said:

The rug in the lower pic gives me PTSD

Haha.  This photo was taken way before current events.  It helped with the glare.

Edited January 12 by pdags

[mrd160]

On 1/11/2024 at 8:32 PM, pdags said:

Haha.  This photo was taken way before current events.