ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[paqart]

On 1/25/2024 at 6:40 PM, comicjel said:

?? - All 3 scans are 9.8

I know the replacement book was likely not a "true" 9.8, but it was in a 9.8 holder when it was reholdered for a 2nd time.

But, Nick already nailed it - it was likely resubbed the 2nd time by the dupped buyer, which explains it.

 

I should have looked more carefully. I thought this was another of the "not a 9.8" examples that found their way into a 9.8 holder. Sounds like it is, but that was a step before the photos posted.

[EastEnd1]

On 1/25/2024 at 5:57 PM, sledgehammer said:

this is carrying more, and more weight with me. There are so many submissions, where only one of the books is on the list, and the other books in the submission are 9.8, with that exact same graders note, of slight spine stress. 

that is exactly what that is doing, is leaving it open for a lower graded book to go into that slab, and it is seeming more and more likely that someone at CGC was helping make that possible.

it's really starting to smell bad.

I was wondering what the issue was with these grader notes... thanks for laying that out... makes sense.  

[wiparker824]

 

On 12/24/2023 at 7:37 AM, comicwiz said:

Nice job @agamoto! I juxtaposed the two for better comparison, and include the cert data as well as sales dates:

9.2 - 4134002001 was graded on 1/24/2023 and sold on eBay July 1, 2023 for $1450 (Newsstand, MJ insert)

9.8 - 4152956002 was graded 11/09/2022 and sold on eBay Dec 16 2022 $4995 (Newsstand, MJ insert)

9.2 Certification number:

9.8 Certification number:

 

Not sure if the loop was ever closed on this one... I may have drifted in and out for a couple hundred pages so I apologize if this is a rehash, but this book post swap was listed for sale by Grailz like many of the other books on this list for consignment on 8/6/23. I noticed it while I was digging thru their posts. They listed it for 25k. Not sure if they ever got that price... but that's a 5 figure scam regardless. This is more to my earlier point that I am of the belief most of the scammers latest (2023) dirty work happened thru backchannels on IG where things aren't tracked as easily by GPA/eBay. 

Note: The donor book you provided was also listed on Grailz as well on 3/17/23.

Edited January 26 by wiparker824

[360flip]

On 1/25/2024 at 3:40 PM, comicjel said:

?? - All 3 scans are 9.8

I know the replacement book was likely not a "true" 9.8, but it was in a 9.8 holder when it was reholdered for a 2nd time.

But, Nick already nailed it - it was likely resubbed the 2nd time by the dupped buyer, which explains it.

 

The first time that cert was swapped and custom labeled, I don't think it even left his possession. Shill bid, then swapped out that book for a lower grade, get the next custom label, then sold to a sucker. A $ bump each time.

1. Direct 9.8 slab to news stand 9.8 slab, latter worth more.

2. swap out to lower grade book and put into 9.8 news stand slab

Edited January 26 by 360flip

[comicwiz]

On 1/25/2024 at 4:39 PM, wiparker824 said:

Here's a fun one I stumbled across...

First image from WP/eBay sale from 7/16/23 direct edition book, direct edition label for $760. 

Second image from listing on Grailz IG account on 8/15/23 for $2999 but what's this, magically there's a newsstand book inside. Side note - my man wastes no time getting books reholdered, got to say I struggle to even get CGC to open my box in 1 month this guy bought it from eBay got it shipped to him and reholdered, then relisted thru Grailz in 1 month. Impressive. 

Third image from CGC scans on verify tool. The 2nd custom label, which hey at least it's not a Spidey custom label on an X-Men book anymore, also got CGC to "fix" his label and notate the newsstand edition this time. 

Looks like there isn't any shortage of fun to be had - I'll see your July 16 2023 sale with Certification: 4220532001, and raise you another X-Men 266 9.8, that happened to sell on the exact same day (7/16/2023), and after it reappered in the second sale below (11/21/2023), we also can notice it changed from Direct to Newsstand.

Certification: 2120143023

Beginning first with the cert look-up for posterity:

1) Cert: 2120143023  | ebay  | 7/16/2023 | $760 - note: pics are small, but you can see the cert # on the back pic 

 

2) Difference noted (changes from direct to newsstand) when it reappears for sale on eBay on 11/21/2023 | $1,725

3) Reappers a third time on eBay - Cert: 2120143023 [12/5/2023] - $1,680

Edited January 26 by comicwiz

[Steven Valdez]

On 1/26/2024 at 2:47 AM, sd2416 said:

Show us on the slab where CGC touched you? 

I find it odd that so many on here are still defending CGC to the point of making pedophilia-based "jokes" in support of it.

Is there anyone here who is at all circumspect about using their "services" going forward?

I'll probably take advantage of their express MVS replacement deal if that's still on offer.

Edited January 26 by Steven Valdez

[Lightning55]

On 1/25/2024 at 10:51 PM, Steven Valdez said:

I find it odd that so many on here are still defending CGC to the point of making pedophilia-based "jokes" about it.

Is there anyone here who is at all circumspect about using their "services" going forward?

I'll probably take advantage of their express MVS replacement deal if that's still on offer.

Not bothering me a bit, and I am sure I am in the 90+% of people who will have zero impact from this scandal.  If you deal in high value books, especially those particular issues that are scam favorites, different story.

I've been subbing right along, hope to increase.  My biggest loss, since being involved with CGC for many years, is the many hours lost reading this 370+ page thread, and following all the links to see "evidence".  Kinda interesting, but exhausting.

[agamoto]

On 1/24/2024 at 5:43 PM, comicwiz said:

This shows methodical and careful planning.

Did somebody say McMens Rea?

On 1/25/2024 at 8:34 AM, Stefan_W said:

The incident has had absolutely zero impact on the amount I am sending in for grading. 

You can have whatever opinion you want but I don't believe a panic response is even remotely warranted. 

On 1/25/2024 at 8:43 AM, shadroch said:

Really. Just because there is a chance the 9.8 book you buy is a 9.4 that was switched at CGC is no reason to lose faith in the company.  The notion that the scammer gets an awful lot of notes on his 9.8 submissions compared to the general public shows how much CGC cares. It will take more than their slabs having no integrity to cause me to lose faith in them.

On 1/25/2024 at 2:19 PM, grendel013 said:

All the hard work is already done. 

Lol. "Trust in CGC a standard amongst Collectors."

On 1/25/2024 at 4:34 PM, wiparker824 said:

 

Not sure if the loop was ever closed on this one... I may have drifted in and out for a couple hundred pages so I apologize if this is a rehash, but this book post swap was listed for sale by Grailz like many of the other books on this list for consignment on 8/6/23. I noticed it while I was digging thru their posts. They listed it for 25k. Not sure if they ever got that price... but that's a 5 figure scam regardless. This is more to my earlier point that I am of the belief most of the scammers latest (2023) dirty work happened thru backchannels on IG where things aren't tracked as easily by GPA/eBay. 

Note: The donor book you provided was also listed on Grailz as well on 3/17/23.

Ok, let me see if I've got this one straight... Grailz puts the original 9.2 comic, graded on 1/24/2023, up on their facebook/Instagram May 4th, 2023 for $1695. I don't do Insta, was it claimed by anyone? Whether or not, the book winds up selling on eBay on July 1st, 2023 for a fixed price of $1300, and it appears the ad is using the same pictures in the ad that Grailz used on insta back in May. I can't tell on worthpoint or terapeak who the seller or the buyer is, but the ad descrption for the 9.2 doesn't match the other ads we've seen throughout the history of the Mark's Jeweler Fooler's listings. Then, in just over a month, the book gets sent to CGC for relabel/reholder, winds up as a 9.8, and it's back for sale, right back at Grailz for $25K in early August. How about that. 

At the risk of Swagglehaus dismissing one of my posts as a Pepe Silvia rant, I'm going to say again that it's a real shame CGC's private eyes, Kroll, can't simply subpoena instagram and ebay to show who was trading and communicating over this book, and many others books, or how much money exchanged hands, if any. Just some of the interesting stuff law enforcement investigators would be able to do, like where and when the books were shipped around, who touched them at CGC, who owns the phone the pics were taken with and where they were taken when uploaded etc. 

[wiparker824]

On 1/25/2024 at 11:51 PM, agamoto said:

Did somebody say McMens Rea?

Lol. "Trust in CGC a standard amongst Collectors."

Ok, let me see if I've got this one straight... Grailz puts the original 9.2 comic, graded on 1/24/2023, up on their facebook/Instagram May 4th, 2023 for $1695. I don't do Insta, was it claimed by anyone? Whether or not, the book winds up selling on eBay on July 1st, 2023 for a fixed price of $1300, and it appears the ad is using the same pictures in the ad that Grailz used on insta back in May. I can't tell on worthpoint or terapeak who the seller or the buyer is, but the ad descrption for the 9.2 doesn't match the other ads we've seen throughout the history of the Mark's Jeweler Fooler's listings. Then, in just over a month, the book gets sent to CGC for relabel/reholder, winds up as a 9.8, and it's back for sale, right back at Grailz for $25K in early August. How about that. 

At the risk of Swagglehaus dismissing one of my posts as a Pepe Silvia rant, I'm going to say again that it's a real shame CGC's private eyes, Kroll, can't simply subpoena instagram and ebay to show who was trading and communicating over this book, and many others books, or how much money exchanged hands, if any. Just some of the interesting stuff law enforcement investigators would be able to do, like where and when the books were shipped around, who touched them at CGC, who owns the phone the pics were taken with and where they were taken when uploaded etc. 

Sounds about right. In terms of if the 9.2 or the 9.8 were ever claimed on insta only Grailz would know that. They instruct buyers to claim either in comments or DM but I think most conduct negotiating in DM’s. Neither book has a public claim comment or a public sold comment. 

[comicwiz]

On 1/26/2024 at 1:51 AM, agamoto said:

On 1/24/2024 at 8:43 PM, comicwiz said:

This shows methodical and careful planning.

Did somebody say McMens Rea?

That doesn't go far enough - the patterns I'm seeing here, ranging from grade dates/notes, impossible achievement of time gaps between changes and flips, AND exact sale date matches on a string of books is the kind of coordination that 's akin to not only knowing who is working security at a planned heist, but right down to knowing the colour of underwear they're wearing.

Edited January 26 by comicwiz

[comicwiz]

On 1/26/2024 at 12:28 AM, Lightning55 said:

is the many hours lost reading this 370+ page thread, and following all the links to see "evidence".  Kinda interesting, but exhausting.

Will make a mental note of that, when you come asking for help here.

[Steven Valdez]

On 1/26/2024 at 11:33 PM, comicwiz said:

That doesn't go far enough - the patterns I'm seeing here, ranging from grade dates/notes, impossible achievement of time gaps between changes and flips, AND exact sale date matches on a string of books is the kind of coordination that 's akin to not only knowing who is working security at a planned heist, but right down the colour of underwear they're wearing.

I wonder if the perps are as blasé about all this as Mr Lightning55 is?

[comicwiz]

On 1/26/2024 at 8:36 AM, Steven Valdez said:

I wonder if the perps are as blasé about all this as Mr Lightning55 is?

Don't worry about the "nothing to see here brigade" - they're role is to foment and create division and distraction. Some have no business even posting here based on their history, and with others, you can see right through their intent because money is inevitably the corrupting influence. They might even see the information I've posted here as a threat to their grabby pursuits. I don't even need to see it in their written words or parse the hidden meaning in what they write, I know their intent when they ask how I've been able to "spend" the kind of time on what I have, or that all that has been highlighted is exhasuting. Their miscalculations go beyond placing that much significance on a tamper-proof claim that has been disproven, in the most perverse manner imaginable, just look at the evidence compiled thus far. It extends to belieiving any one person can invoke that kind of change. 

Evolution seems to proceed not by design but by chance and serendipity.

Edited January 26 by comicwiz

[Stefan_W]

On 1/26/2024 at 2:53 AM, agamoto said:

In the many hours I've spent delving into this situation, my biggest "gain" was learning to use the board system to ignore and effectively remove selective user's posts. I'm sure others have done the same to me.

Your decision to continue using this comic grading service, despite these recent issues, suggests you're a practical, pragmatic sort of fella, and hey, I can appreciate that. It's reasonable to assume that if your comics aren't worth a ton, you wouldn't be as concerned about fraud as someone with very expensive items. However, if your main takeaway from the 370 pages is just whatever, "kinda interesting," then I have to wonder where to place you on the scale between "Not paying attention at all" and "Can't find bum with both hands."  

I think context is everything here. When @Lightning55 said that 90%+ of people will not be directly impacted by this scam he is completely correct, and when you point out it disproportionately impacts collectors with very expensive books you are pointing out a very similar thing. From my perspective the scam is absolutely important and I appreciate the hard work done by those who are continuing to dig into it, but it has zero impact on the way I collect, buy, and grade books. The books I send myself are clear, and the slabs I buy are typically crack and re-sub candidates (so 9.0-9.4 books I am hoping to get to 9.6/9.8). 

Further context is that a small number of people on the boards are dominating this thread with what basically amounts to "I hate CGC" and "why would anyone ever grade books again." The good and informative parts to this thread are people like @comicwiz and others who are bringing new potentially tampered with slabs to light to inform the community. The exhausting part of this thread are sifting through all of the responses I referred to in the first part of this paragraph because, although people have the right to spew endlessly and say the same thing again and again, not a single one of them adds anything of value to the discussion. It is worse for people like me who don't like to use the ignore feature because I am fully aware that the same person may add something of big value to another discussion along the way.  

[wiparker824]

On 1/26/2024 at 6:57 AM, Stefan_W said:

I think context is everything here. When @Lightning55 said that 90%+ of people will not be directly impacted by this scam he is completely correct, and when you point out it disproportionately impacts collectors with very expensive books you are pointing out a very similar thing. From my perspective the scam is absolutely important and I appreciate the hard work done by those who are continuing to dig into it, but it has zero impact on the way I collect, buy, and grade books. The books I send myself are clear, and the slabs I buy are typically crack and re-sub candidates (so 9.0-9.4 books I am hoping to get to 9.6/9.8). 

Further context is that a small number of people on the boards are dominating this thread with what basically amounts to "I hate CGC" and "why would anyone ever grade books again." The good and informative parts to this thread are people like @comicwiz and others who are bringing new potentially tampered with slabs to light to inform the community. The exhausting part of this thread are sifting through all of the responses I referred to in the first part of this paragraph because, although people have the right to spew endlessly and say the same thing again and again, not a single one of them adds anything of value to the discussion. It is worse for people like me who don't like to use the ignore feature because I am fully aware that the same person may add something of big value to another discussion along the way.  

I agree with a lot this but will say the same way the “I hate CGC” comments don’t add anything of value is the same way the “nothing to see here” comments don’t add any value. If a person feels this scam doesn’t impact them in any way, that’s fine, but I’m not sure what posting that repeatedly in this thread is adding to the discussion. Especially since we’re almost 400 pages and a month in and some have been doing that since the beginning. The “exhausting” part of this to me is reading thru those, especially when the “I hate CGC” and the “nothing to see here” crowds start feeding off each other. All are welcome to say what they want, but for me it’s just added noise at this point.

[comicjel]

On 1/25/2024 at 5:57 PM, sledgehammer said:

this is carrying more, and more weight with me. There are so many submissions, where only one of the books is on the list, and the other books in the submission are 9.8, with that exact same graders note, of slight spine stress. 

that is exactly what that is doing, is leaving it open for a lower graded book to go into that slab, and it is seeming more and more likely that someone at CGC was helping make that possible.

it's really starting to smell bad.

In relation to your observation with the 9.8 grader notes, I find it odd that some of these same 9.8s that did not make the "list", presumably because they were not reholdered, were instead, just sold.  An example is #4324007007 (ASM #300 9.8 graded 9/13/23 and sold 10/3/23).

The scam, as we know it, is to acquire 9.8 labels with legit 9.8 books, and then get inferior books reholdered using those same 9.8 labels... So why sell the legit 9.8 book in the acquired 9.8 holder?  From the scammer's perspective, isn't that a waste of a perfectly good 9.8 label??

To me, there is an aspect of this scam that does not necessitate a book being reholdered somehow.

To be sure, the scammer seemed to bank on a lax reholder system for the inferior books that were being reholdered, but it also seems like the scammer could count on getting a very high percentage of 9.8s on his regular submissions... even books that had "slight spine stress". 

Look at the "verify" scan of the lower right back corner (sorry, I do not know how to link stuff!!) - is that a flaw that you would expect to see on a 9.8?? - remember, this is the original submission, not a reholdered book, and not a book from the "list". 

Edited January 26 by comicjel
added to comment

[Steven Valdez]

What I do notice is that on YouTube comments pages people are up in arms about the case debacle and are swearing never to touch CGC again; whereas on these boards there's a strong 'this'll blow over soon' vibe as if it's just a minor road-bump. Yes, the 'nothing to see here' brigade. It's a form of cognitive dissonance , i.e. 'This is tough luck for people I don't know or care about, but I'll be fine.'

[Nick Furious]

On 1/26/2024 at 8:46 AM, comicjel said:

The scam, as we know it, is to acquire 9.8 labels with legit 9.8 books, and then get inferior books reholdered using those same 9.8 labels... So why sell the legit 9.8 book in the acquired 9.8 holder?  From the scammer's perspective, isn't that a waste of a perfectly good 9.8 label??

To me, there is an aspect of this scam that does not necessitate a book being reholdered somehow.

I think I get what you are saying.  It's possible that when the scammer bought or received a legit 9.8, he only cracked out the ones he was most comfortable could be regraded at 9.8.  The scam would lose significant value if the original 9.8 came back as 9.6 when submitted a second, third or fourth time.  

[Stefan_W]

On 1/26/2024 at 9:59 AM, Steven Valdez said:

What I do notice is that on YouTube comments pages people are up in arms about the case debacle and are swearing never to touch CGC again; whereas on these boards there's a strong 'this'll blow over soon' vibe as if it's just a minor road-bump. Yes, the 'nothing to see here' brigade. It's a form of cognitive dissonance , i.e. 'This is tough luck for people I don't know or care about, but I'll be fine.'

Based on the comments on my videos I would completely agree with the bolded point. I think a big source of difference is the people who have accounts with CGC and participate on a CGC forum are typically people who buy and sell slabs. It does not have to be that, but I am speaking about the majority of people on these boards. 

The audience for YouTube comic book channels is very different in that it spans more broadly across the comic community, and as such it includes both people who submit books and those who do not. Some of the people who are commenting in those reply sections are not into submitting books to begin with, and for that crowd the scam was one more reason that justifies not sending anything in for grading. There is also a crowd of people who are pretty dedicated to going from channel to channel and posting their hatred of CGC in every comment section they can find. 

So when you look at the composition of the groups of people on these boards and those writing in comments sections on YouTube I think the differences you correctly identify make sense. 

[comicjel]

On 1/26/2024 at 10:04 AM, Nick Furious said:

I think I get what you are saying.  It's possible that when the scammer bought or received a legit 9.8, he only cracked out the ones he was most comfortable could be regraded at 9.8.  The scam would lose significant value if the original 9.8 came back as 9.6 when submitted a second, third or fourth time.  

I thought about that, but remember he would be making such a decision on a book that he just submitted to hopefully get a 9.8, and did! - not the book you would expect would be pulled from the rotation (maybe after getting a 9.6, but not on the heels of getting a 9.8).

What makes me more suspicious is that the book does not look (to me) like a book I would ever have dreamed of getting a 9.8 on, and it is 1 of 7 books from a submission that "all" 7 received 9.8 (all 30+ year-old books getting a 9.8) - and based on his other submissions, it does not appear that his books are being screened for 9.8.

It's just circumstantial, and speculation on my part, but I just feel there is an aspect that goes beyond just gaming the reholder system.