ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[awe4one]

On 2/3/2024 at 10:09 AM, jas1vans said:

I understand why nobody is naming names. It may have been missed, but I don't think there is anything concrete to say "Person X did this." There are strong enough connections that others feel they know the culprit, but I don't think those feelings hold weight over facts in a court of law.

My concern is not that the people who are doing this are named immediately, but that they are known by enough people so nobody else gets ripped off.

Some may know, but not telling collectors the identity is not doing them any favors.

Jim

[comicwiz]

On 2/3/2024 at 10:49 AM, ramithard said:

Like I said earlier.....this thread is like the show True Detective.....no one wants to tell us who the person is that did this....it just goes on....and on...and on,,,,

This has been brought up a handful of times already now. I chose to quote you because in a past comment, you indicated that none of this was going to slow down or change the fact you were still submitting to CGC. It is your decision to continue doing business with the company, whose "tamper-proof" claims have been rendered baseless and a failure, and whose 350 'impacted books' list is not all-encompassing to the true scale of this "holder tampering incident." The latest lawsuit alleging insider corruption has exacerbated a lot of the deceptive practices we've seen happening external to the company since mid-December, and reaching into all manner of manipulating the market. 

From my vantage point, you are relying on CGC, despite all these inadequacies and deficiencies uncovered by the community. CGC is who you should be asking for the information you seek.

Edited February 3 by comicwiz

[sledgehammer]

On 2/3/2024 at 10:45 AM, awe4one said:

Some may know, but not telling collectors the identity is not doing them any favors.

Jim

what's amazing to me, is that with all of the innuendo, and investigative details that have appeared in this thread, there hasn't been one time that someone has come on here, and said something like:

"whoa, just read the thread. I'm not sure if you guys are insinuating that "Joe Blow" is involved, with these anonymous eBay sellers that were mentioned here, but I can tell you, I have known him for 20 years, and I can vouch for his integrity."

"Hang on a second, I will direct him here, and I'm sure he will be able to answer any questions that you have."

I can tell you this much, one of his employees, at one point in the last year started a thread on these boards, about a theft that occurred involving their store. The activity of that username, quickly disappeared. I would put the chances at zero, that they are not aware of what a big issue this is considering the mentions that many of us have gotten on many of the YouTube videos regarding this.

if you are concerned about collectors, I would advise you to take a look on GPA, and how few of these books are currently selling. The only other thing I would advise is to be grateful for the people on here that have spent an enormous amount of their time, trying to make sure that the mastermind behind this is held accountable. 

 

Edited February 3 by sledgehammer

[Sigur Ros]

On 2/3/2024 at 10:22 AM, grendel013 said:

Then Heywood Nelson acts as damage control and publicly states that there is no inside man Hey! Hey! Hey! it was a woman baby! So I ain't lying.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here...

If you're trying to insult Matt Nelson then you're out of line.

Maybe he's right.  Maybe he doesn't know. Or maybe he's saying what he is allowed to say by his employer.

I believe there is an inside man but that's because it's the only way I can logically make this make sense.  I could be completely wrong.  Doesn't even matter.  Regardless, insulting the guy is stupid.  CGC was thrown into a bad situation (or 3) and is trying to figure this all out.

[grendel013]

On 2/3/2024 at 1:49 PM, Sigur Ros said:

I don't understand what you're trying to say here...

If you're trying to insult Matt Nelson then you're out of line.

Maybe he's right.  Maybe he doesn't know. Or maybe he's saying what he is allowed to say by his employer.

I believe there is an inside man but that's because it's the only way I can logically make this make sense.  I could be completely wrong.  Doesn't even matter.  Regardless, insulting the guy is stupid.  CGC was thrown into a bad situation (or 3) and is trying to figure this all out.

I'm just a fan of What's Happening.

[grendel013]

On 2/3/2024 at 10:39 AM, jas1vans said:

Someone about 300 or so pages back said that they purchased one of the books on the list from the alleged scammer in person. They were also offered other books that ended up on the list. The alleged scammer was not alone.

I get that some people know the identity of the alleged scammer and that is great. Is this person known to comic dealers? Are the buddies known as well? What is preventing these bad actors from clearing out their remaining inventory before anyone gets a chance to name them publicly?

If this was already answered, sorry for the repeat question. Also, thanks to everyone who is shining light on this and sharing what they are able to find.

If we were playing Clue I'd guess TC of CBS with the heat gun in the reholder room.

Edited February 3 by grendel013

[Yorick]

What if...  the scammer is using a third party to now launder the dirty books back through CGC's fraud buy-back program? 

[sledgehammer]

On 2/3/2024 at 1:19 PM, Yorick said:

What if...  the scammer is using a third party to now launder the dirty books back through CGC's fraud buy-back program? 

That's certainly part of the reason that they would be asking for receipts to document any sales.

It sounds though, like they better be doing a cost/benefit analysis of requiring them.

[Yorick]

On 2/3/2024 at 11:24 AM, sledgehammer said:

That's certainly part of the reason that they would be asking for receipts to document any sales.

It sounds though, like they better be doing a cost/benefit analysis of requiring them.

ThE Hard WoRK is AlreadY DoNe!!

 

Actually, the fraud buy-back would make it even easier to make $$$ because a scrupulous collector wouldn't be analyzing the contents of the slab and asking for a refund when the book is nowhere close to 9.8.

[comicjel]

Knowing that CGC was learning about the Terrazas' reholder scam in September / October 2023, I am surprised that they did not discover the (assumed) separate reholder scam themselves in the 2 - 3 months before the ASM 252 was brought to light.

I would think they would have been investigating the reholder procedures pretty closely back then to confirm that the reholder process was not being manipulated in a similar way by others (inside or outside CGC). 

This whole scam would be perceived much differently from a PR standpoint if CGC caught it internally and exposed it themselves.  

 

Edited February 3 by comicjel
improve wording a bit

[comicwiz]

On 2/3/2024 at 3:37 PM, comicjel said:

I am surprised that they did not discover the (assumed) separate reholder scam themselves in the 2 - 3 months before the ASM 252 was brought to light.

You and I are seeing this situation very differently. We were the meddling kids here - they would have never needed to do one or the other if not for what we discovered. Without the latter, the forner would have likely been dealt with 'privately", if it was dealt with at all.

Edited February 3 by comicwiz

[comicjel]

On 2/3/2024 at 5:39 PM, comicwiz said:

You and I are seeing this situation very differently. We were the meddling kids here - they would have never needed to do one or the other if not for what we discovered. Without the latter, the forner would have likely been dealt with 'privately", if it was dealt with at all.

Not as differently as you may think... our strategies may differ, but I bet our view on this situation, is much more similar than it may appear!

Edited February 3 by comicjel
re-word point

[Book Guy]

As an aside, I was looking at a (for me) expensive silver age slab and debating whether to buy. I put it on my watchlist and I got a 25% discount offer from the seller. Then I noticed the seller was located in Astoria New York. I decided not to buy and part of the reason is I have no idea whether they are involved in all this or not. I can probably get one cheaper over time, likely raw, but the whole slabgate thing did play a part in my passing on it. Just my recent personal experience....

Edited February 3 by Book Guy

[MAR1979]

On 2/1/2024 at 1:50 PM, comicjel said:

#50... admitted to stealing twenty-three customer-submitted comic books...

As if that would not be noticed??

 

Perhaps its only drop in bucket in relation to BAU shrink at CGC?

Edited February 3 by MAR1979

[comicjel]

On 2/3/2024 at 6:16 PM, Book Guy said:

As an aside, I was looking at a (for me) expensive silver age slab and debating whether to buy. I put it on my watchlist and I got a 25% discount offer from the seller. Then I noticed the seller was located in Astoria New York. I decided not to buy and part of the reason is I have no idea whether they are involved in all this or not. I can probably get one cheaper over time, likely raw, but the whole slabgate thing did play a part in my passing on it. Just my recent personal experience....

I have a similar situation - there is a comic that is coming up for auction, I suspect it will go for pretty high $$ - I would normally bid pretty high with little concern about it's legitimacy - I see that it was graded in 2017, and is in the new type holder (with the label in it's own compartment) - I have definite trepidation as I consider what I am going to ultimately bid (if at all) - I hope I will get over this feeling, but at the moment I have it.

[WestcoastDAVEngers]

On 2/3/2024 at 12:37 PM, comicjel said:

Knowing that CGC was learning about the Terrazas' reholder scam in September / October 2023, I am surprised that they did not discover the (assumed) separate reholder scam themselves in the 2 - 3 months before the ASM 252 was brought to light.

I would think they would have been investigating the reholder procedures pretty closely back then to confirm that the reholder process was not being manipulated in a similar way by others (inside or outside CGC). 

This whole scam would be perceived much differently from a PR standpoint if CGC caught it internally and exposed it themselves.  

 

Just want to chime in here, CGC has no clue what it's doing. Imagine a long snake where the head doesn't know what the tail is doing. Just because they investigated employees doesn't mean they have any clue that another scam is happening right under their noses. 

[brute_nm]

Looks like there's a new filing for this case:

Certified Guaranty Co., which provides authentication and grading for comic books, sued customers Ulises Zanello and Bree Riva for trademark infringement, false advertising and breach of contract on Feb. 2 in New York Southern District Court. The suit, brought by Mitchell Silberberg & Knupp, accuses the defendants of obtaining high-value comic books in holders with grade labels from the plaintiff, then swapping the comic books with lower-graded comics and reselling them, thereby deceiving customers into paying inflated prices for incorrectly-graded comic books. The plaintiff filed a similar lawsuit against two former employees on Jan. 31 in Florida Middle District Court. Counsel have not yet appeared for the defendants. The case is 1:24-cv-00797, Certified Guaranty Co. LLC v. Zanello et al.

Defendants: ULISES ZANELLO and BREE RIVA

https://www.law.com/radar/card/pm-52207009-certified-guaranty-company-llc-v-zanello/

https://dockets.justia.com/docket/new-york/nysdce/1:2024cv00797/615000

[grendel013]

Hi Bree! Bye Bree!

[awakeintheashes]

 

On 2/4/2024 at 12:03 AM, brute_nm said:

trademark infringement, false advertising and breach of contract

All the typical career moves for retired field hockey and rugby players…

Edited February 4 by awakeintheashes

[shadroch]

On 2/2/2024 at 10:41 AM, CGC Mike said:

That page is way outdated.  Also, we have several current graders that are not pictured.  I am not sure if it will be updated at some point or not.

Outdated web pages don't inspire a lot of confidence in a company.  Details matter.