ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[HighGrade]

On 2/15/2024 at 1:20 PM, awakeintheashes said:

If this story continues to grow and CGC does nothing to educate and reassure the community what it is doing to help ensure a book is what the slab says it is (reholder images, PR to identify tampering), then it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility that the 3rd gen slab is a knee-jerk avoid. 

If this story slowly dies and the majority of the community is unfazed by what is happening, then it's business as usual.  

It's not going to die here, but this is us oddballs, the majority are already over it, just look at the auction results, nobody has stopped buying, some things are even moving up!

But you and I both agree we HAVE to get those cert images, whatever they have, and I'll keep saying it....I hope people join in...keep the original slab image when you reholder! have both images up! otherwise whats the point? it could be a reholder mistake again or any other mistake, don't leave anything up to the imagination, give the entire history of slabbing and reholdering!

Also I think the PR has to wait until after the cases, I think after the YouTube interview the lid is SHUT, no talking until cases are won. But I love the idea you have of PR on tampering, IE what to look for, but honestly lots of people just don't worry or care like we do.

[Buzzetta]

On 2/15/2024 at 9:40 AM, Nazirite said:

Off topic but on a positive note, this situation has encouraged me to attend cons. I look forward to purchasing raw books in person and surprisingly my wife has decided to join me. I have a shipment of E.Gerber Myler 2's and full backs on the way, as well as a pack of microchamber paper. It feels like I'm starting from step one again which is kind of exciting. I will allow my membership to expire this month and use the boards to help educate me more in spotting restoration.  

This has actually had the reverse affect on me.  It discourages me from buying anything and perhaps advances the timeline I had for selling everything. 

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 2/14/2024 at 12:02 PM, comicwiz said:

track dead VIN's that were being revived

Zombie Labels.

Aka. Labels sent in to be removed from census being revived on other books.

[paqart]

On 2/14/2024 at 11:15 PM, comeaux said:

CGC is going to get smoked in this case and I hope they get sued for malicious prosecution, sometimes pain is the only way to learn. 

It isn't a "prosecution" because it is civil, not criminal. The civil equivalent is "frivolous" or :harassment." I don't think CGC's case meet these definitions at all. Zanello et al did harm CGC's brand with their fraud and have caused CGC to suffer monetary damages. There is no way around that. CGC is a victim due to the criminal mischief of the defendant.

[MAR1979]

On 2/15/2024 at 7:48 PM, paqart said:

It isn't a "prosecution" because it is civil, not criminal. The civil equivalent is "frivolous" or :harassment." I don't think CGC's case meet these definitions at all. Zanello et al did harm CGC's brand with their fraud and have caused CGC to suffer monetary damages. There is no way around that. CGC is a victim due to the criminal mischief of the defendant.

Agreed, with a caveat and that is CGC is partially and provably to blame. Not sure how well that will play to a Jury...

[comeaux]

On 2/15/2024 at 6:48 PM, paqart said:

It isn't a "prosecution" because it is civil, not criminal. The civil equivalent is "frivolous" or :harassment." I don't think CGC's case meet these definitions at all. Zanello et al did harm CGC's brand with their fraud and have caused CGC to suffer monetary damages. There is no way around that. CGC is a victim due to the criminal mischief of the defendant.

Cause of Action for Malicious Prosecution can be filed for civil or criminal 

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 2/15/2024 at 3:42 PM, Buzzetta said:

This has actually had the reverse affect on me.  It discourages me from buying anything and perhaps advances the timeline I had for selling everything. 

[comeaux]

On 2/15/2024 at 10:00 AM, shadroch said:

If you can't trust that the book in the case graded by a third-party grading company is actually the book it is supposed to be, what purpose does the third-party grading company have? They have sucked tens of millions of dollars out of the hobby and made it possible for scamsters to take even more. 

In 1999, Steve convinced me there was a need for a third-party company that would make transactions with other dealers easier.  A bunch of NY dealers had recently been burnt by a California dealer who overpromised but underdelivered.   He'd sold us books he claimed were Fine Plus, but we argued they were  VG minus. CGC was supposed to eliminate such issues. Now they say to buy from the people they claimed they were protecting us from. If I only buy from reputable people who will stand behind their product, why do I need a third party to take a piece? 

When a sports team is underperforming, ownership usually recognizes it needs a management change. 

You are making way too much sense, post like this are 100% accurate but upset the natives who will soon follow with confused emojis because they have no sensical response. 

[JollyComics]

On 2/12/2024 at 7:09 PM, Chaos_in_Canada said:

S-A-M-E comic!

9.0 (from Heritage) & 9.4 (from reddit)

 

@Moondog  Gary can confirm this.

[HighGrade]

On 2/15/2024 at 8:29 PM, JollyComics said:

@Moondog  Gary can confirm this.

This Windy City Marvel #1 will keep popping up, and this is why CGC Has to do a better job on the label and cert lookup, now when entering the newest cert# 1625297003 on the Marvel Comics #1 Windy City copy there is nothing letting you know the past history of this book, and it's all legit, yet people out there will never know unless they ask someone who knows about this book and it's history.

Seeing a book switch cert numbers and turn into a pedegree is obviously going to cause confusion when in reality it's all very simple and all very legit. As this picture is posted on the internet and people don't read or research it, at first look people will think it's a swap or a scam, it's not, but they don't know. So another GREAT idea PUT the old cert# in the notes! and say newly recognized as Windy City in notes, because we are now going to see more pictures like this that are perfectly fine newly recognized pedigree or upgrades from pressing/cleaning, but there will be photos showing books side by side with no FACTS, If the old cert # was in the notes, it would solve this confusion!  more notes on cert page would help too.

Like, put in the notes: old cert #0071944001, now newly recognized as the Windy City. Maybe think about something like this going forward to prevent misunderstanding.

The cert page should also show all previous times it was reholder with the previous picture with a note saying all 3 are the Windy City Marvel #1, recently recognized as the Windy City with that year.

So many people are not aware that they both are the Windy City copy, and only recently was officially recognized as such. If the notes show each time it was reholder and "if" it's a changed grade the label should show the old cert# in the notes, then it would not cause people to freak out thinking some evil plot is afoot or it was swapped, when if you could just read original was 8.5 with the picture, the 9.0 with reholder with picture, and the 9.4 with picture noting NOW officially recognized as Windy City pedigree.

Just because I, and many others here were aware of this, we are the fringe comic freaks, doesn't mean everyone is, the lack of transparency is working AGAINST CGC right here in a simple picture, so people might never find out if they don't read everything and continue to think it's some kind of shenanigans and hurts the hobby, and this is an easy fix with more notes on the labels and cert lookup.

Also what is the reason for the cert# change when the grade changes after cleaning pressing? I might be missing something but keeping the same cert# would seem to be better, thus keeping the lineage. Same book same cert, new cert makes it seem like a new book when it's not, old pictures old sales will cause confusion....So more notes, more pictures, notes on holder with old cert# will help CGC as much as us.

I don't know, I just think a few things need to be brainstormed to make things safer and with less confusion, and in the case of a huge book like this, I think it's vitally important to avoid people thinking it's a scam.

[lou_fine]

On 2/15/2024 at 11:30 PM, HighGrade said:

Like, put in the notes: old cert #0071944001, now newly recognized as the Windy City. Maybe think about something like this going forward to prevent misunderstanding.

The cert page should also show all previous times it was reholder with the previous picture with a note saying all 3 are the Windy City Marvel #1, recently recognized as the Windy City with that year.

You DO realize what you are asking is for both CGC and sellers to FULLY DISCLOSE that a book they are trying to sell for maximum dollars has been worked on in order to artificially manipulate it from a lower graded copy into a higher graded copy.  

Sure, it's "legit" from CGC's point if view, but have you ever seen any auction listing with a description that says the book bring auctioned used to be a former lower graded copy.  There's a clear reason for why this is NEVER EVER disclosed and it's all to do with money.  

Edited February 16 by lou_fine

[HighGrade]

On 2/16/2024 at 3:29 AM, lou_fine said:

You DO realize what you are asking is for both CGC and sellers to FULLY DISCLOSE that a book they are trying to sell for maximum dollars has been worked on in order to artificially manipulate it from lower graded copy into a higher graded copy.  

Sure, it's "legit" from CGC's point if view, but have you ever seen any auction listing with a description that says the book bring auctioned used to be a former lower graded copy.  There's a clear reason for why this is NEVER EVER disclosed and it's all to do with money.  

I see what your saying, but here nothing was hidden on those books? all 3 of them were listed with photos in high resolution, with sales figures too. Heritage keeps all past sales for buyers to see, regardless of Pressing/Cleaning or higher or lower past sales, and GPA actually has increased peoples willingness to buy books. This is not an issue with the "flipper/Investor. Nothing is really hidden today and Heritages past log of all sales is actually is a great comfort. Lately I research books on Heritage to gain confidence that it is the original book, it doesn't stop me if a book was bumped, unless I don't agree with grade, but that's me, I'm still a believer of buy the book not the grade, I'm holding out on this one

Pressing/cleaning was way more of an issue with true older collectors, the hobby has shifted, buyers and sellers want higher grades regardless of the book. And maybe sad, but today the buyers #1 issue is not the pressing/cleaning and high grade bumps, no, they want that, they understand that game! Now people need to feel the book they are buying is in fact the book CGC graded, Because the only way to get maximum $$$ now is with transparency. Ideas I mentioned would only help future confidence with buyers.

Just look at this situation, adding anything to that cert lookup or label and none of that talk about HEY it's the same book would have ever happened.  You can't afford now to have things left up to question, they have to solve the biggest problem facing them or the big $$$ goes away if there is no faith in what they are buying. Do you think PSA wanted to post all the scans up? nope, but they do post all scans now because with counterfeits the have to, to give people peace of mind.
 

Edited February 16 by HighGrade
typo

[JollyComics]

On 2/16/2024 at 1:30 AM, HighGrade said:

This Windy City Marvel #1 will keep popping up, and this is why CGC Has to do a better job on the label and cert lookup, now when entering the newest cert# 1625297003 on the Marvel Comics #1 Windy City copy there is nothing letting you know the past history of this book, and it's all legit, yet people out there will never know unless they ask someone who knows about this book and it's history.

Seeing a book switch cert numbers and turn into a pedegree is obviously going to cause confusion when in reality it's all very simple and all very legit. As this picture is posted on the internet and people don't read or research it, at first look people will think it's a swap or a scam, it's not, but they don't know. So another GREAT idea PUT the old cert# in the notes! and say newly recognized as Windy City in notes, because we are now going to see more pictures like this that are perfectly fine newly recognized pedigree or upgrades from pressing/cleaning, but there will be photos showing books side by side with no FACTS, If the old cert # was in the notes, it would solve this confusion!  more notes on cert page would help too.

Like, put in the notes: old cert #0071944001, now newly recognized as the Windy City. Maybe think about something like this going forward to prevent misunderstanding.

The cert page should also show all previous times it was reholder with the previous picture with a note saying all 3 are the Windy City Marvel #1, recently recognized as the Windy City with that year.

So many people are not aware that they both are the Windy City copy, and only recently was officially recognized as such. If the notes show each time it was reholder and "if" it's a changed grade the label should show the old cert# in the notes, then it would not cause people to freak out thinking some evil plot is afoot or it was swapped, when if you could just read original was 8.5 with the picture, the 9.0 with reholder with picture, and the 9.4 with picture noting NOW officially recognized as Windy City pedigree.

Just because I, and many others here were aware of this, we are the fringe comic freaks, doesn't mean everyone is, the lack of transparency is working AGAINST CGC right here in a simple picture, so people might never find out if they don't read everything and continue to think it's some kind of shenanigans and hurts the hobby, and this is an easy fix with more notes on the labels and cert lookup.

Also what is the reason for the cert# change when the grade changes after cleaning pressing? I might be missing something but keeping the same cert# would seem to be better, thus keeping the lineage. Same book same cert, new cert makes it seem like a new book when it's not, old pictures old sales will cause confusion....So more notes, more pictures, notes on holder with old cert# will help CGC as much as us.

I don't know, I just think a few things need to be brainstormed to make things safer and with less confusion, and in the case of a huge book like this, I think it's vitally important to avoid people thinking it's a scam.

Let Gary see if it's same copy or not.

[Kripsys99]

Late to the thread, but I found some actual behind the scene photos of CGC employees conducting the reholdering process:

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

[HighGrade]

On 2/16/2024 at 10:36 AM, JollyComics said:

Let Gary see if it's same copy or not.

OK, But it is the same copy, it's not a problem, 100% both are the same Windy City Marvel #1, no shenanigans. It was pressed and cleaned at lest twice went from a 8.5 to 9.0 to 9.4, the last cleaning and pressing was amazing, they pressed a crease out on the back that really jumped the grade up. I posted that a while ago and then @MasterChief posted a beautiful timeline showing everything from start to finish a few pages ago.

This just continues to illustrates my point that CGC needs to put more notes on the holder and in the cert lookup, plus keep original images and reholder images. These changes are simple and make a huge difference, otherwise questions will continue to pop up and cause a lack of confidence in books being legit. These side by side images with new cert# and pedigree will haunt CGC because 99% of the people do not know, a simple note on the holder and all this never happens.

Unfortunately due to scammers now everyone needs to see a book they are selling or buying is legit... need to be able to go back and see each time CGC slabbed it, so the buyer/seller knows it's the book they are buying/selling, and any notes describing it, of course the bigger the book the more cost, more notes etc.. some of these notes should be right on the label too, like here showcasing the year the Windy City pedigree was recognized.

We'll get there, all this is good.

 

[grendel013]

On 2/16/2024 at 2:52 PM, HighGrade said:

We'll get there, all this is good.

[Nick Furious]

Curious if anyone knows what ever became of the Mark Jeweler book that started this whole thread?  

[WNY]

On 2/16/2024 at 3:26 PM, Nick Furious said:

Curious if anyone knows what ever became of the Mark Jeweler book that started this whole thread?  

It’s now a 10.0

[Buzzetta]

On 2/16/2024 at 4:14 PM, WNY said:

It’s now a 10.0

10.5

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 2/16/2024 at 5:03 PM, Buzzetta said:

10.5