ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[bc]

On 12/25/2023 at 5:57 PM, Lightning55 said:

Whether you swap the labels or the whole comic, you lose the 9.8 label in your Frankencomic when it sells. You keep the crappy label, or just destroy the evidence. 

Either way, you have to resubmit the pulled actual 9.8 comic and hope it regrades 9.8 to continue the loop.

 I realized that after I posted, hence the edit. 

Given all the eagle eyes hitting this thread, if he was just swapping labels, there would be some visual evidence of a crack, chip, or a scrape on the cases.

-bc

 

[comicwiz]

On 12/25/2023 at 4:29 PM, OJ Pimpson said:

Careful, I received a warning for talk like this yesterday.  Additionally CGC made it mandatory for me to “acknowledge” the infraction to conintue to post. Ironically the whole point of my initial posting was that pressure from competitors might hasten an Acknowledgment of this ordeal from CGC. 

Amazing! Control the narrative, stick head back in sand.

[Taxi Driver]

On 12/24/2023 at 8:08 PM, paqart said:

The FBI deals with counterfeiting, forgery, and high end collectibles/art-related crimes. This ticks all the boxes. The only reason they wouldn't look at this is if they are too busy doing other things.

Do you think LOL??? Let's not look into any terrorist cells right now, this CGC thing is big!!!

[Microchip]

Can we have a show of hands around replacing the first C?

1. Close enough Guarantee Company ...CEGC
2. Casually graded Guarantee Company .... CGGC
3. Run away from issues Guarantee Company .... TCC (the customers are chumps)

 

The first C has taken a really big hammering in the last few days across the internet, and the silence from Sarasota is the biggest impact on that.

[Taxi Driver]

On 12/25/2023 at 5:45 AM, Heronext said:

Worst outcome is that this guy gets a Will Smith slap on the wrist. He's permanently banned from submitting (which could be continued via third parties anyway).  The "know your customer" edict in banking is a lesson here.

This has to be the likely outcome. Just think about it. The guy has probably defrauded buyers with what we know of right now to be tens of thousands of dollars? Yet people aren't even giving his information out! I saw on a channel a guy said he knows his or her name, number, and address, but "I'm not giving it out". Fine, but if people who have done business with the guy aren't punishing him, why would CGC not do the bare minimum??? It would only bring bad press to themselves. I think this dies down 30 days or so, I do think slabbing will take a huge hit though. I wouldn't even think of buying a slabbed book until a new process has been implemented. 

[Taxi Driver]

On 12/25/2023 at 2:51 PM, Dark Knight said:

Merry Christmas!

BEST POST OF THE THREAD!!!

[bc]

On 12/25/2023 at 6:20 PM, Taxi Driver said:

This has to be the likely outcome. Just think about it. The guy has probably defrauded buyers with what we know of right now to be tens of thousands of dollars? Yet people aren't even giving his information out! I saw on a channel a guy said he knows his or her name, number, and address, but "I'm not giving it out". Fine, but if people who have done business with the guy aren't punishing him, why would CGC not do the bare minimum??? It would only bring bad press to themselves. I think this dies down 30 days or so, I do think slabbing will take a huge hit though. I wouldn't even think of buying a slabbed book until a new process has been implemented. 

Not everyone collects high volume, Bronze Age 9.8's variants - which is his MO.

-bc

[MAR1979]

On 12/25/2023 at 5:44 PM, Silver Surfer said:

There is a SW# 8 MJI, 9.8 at auction right now. Not sure if it’s a resell or legit? 

At this juncture probably safer to assume not legit. Sadly this type of thing is one of those CGC was formed to prevent. Or so I recall from around 2000

Edited December 26, 2023 by MAR1979

[skybolt]

On 12/25/2023 at 9:46 AM, Nick Furious said:

I won't be surprised if this scandal does permanent damage to the 9.8 premium. 

I think CGC will just see this is as an opportunity to give out more 9.9 grades to get that craze going. Their new motto will be "when 9.8 goes bad, 9.9 is the new fad!".

[bc]

On 12/25/2023 at 6:34 PM, skybolt said:

I think CGC will just see this is as an opportunity to give out more 9.9 grades to get that craze going. Their new motto will be "when 9.8 goes bad, 9.9 is the new fad!".

Better watch out, they may offer you a job in their PR department.

-bc

[Lightning55]

On 12/25/2023 at 5:47 PM, bc said:

Why bother with the label since it's only good for one shot? What this perp is doing is allowing him to re-use the same 9.8 multiple times for reholders & custom labels.

I can see how the perp could re-use the label multiple times now. But why would he do it when he can exploit the system and have CGC do it for him?

-bc

On the text i bolded above, you can't reuse the same label, it goes away with the sold 9.8.

He has to start all over with the pulled 9.8 comic, submitting as a raw, trusting it will come back 9.8 each time. Nothing sinister about sending in a comic to be graded, but there is if it is a substituted comic for a reholder. This is the part of the system he is likely exploiting, along with custom label case changes. 

If his 9.8 comic comes back 9.6, he can choose to sell as is, or crack it out for another try. Different graders, different day, may still come back 9.8 next time. Only out the grading cost to retry, which is small change in the scheme of things. Or "scam of things".

[bc]

On 12/25/2023 at 6:45 PM, Lightning55 said:

On the text i bolded above, you can't reuse the same label, it goes away with the sold 9.8.

He has to start all over with the pulled 9.8 comic, submitting as a raw, trusting it will come back 9.8 each time. Nothing sinister about sending in a comic to be graded, but there is if it is a substituted comic for a reholder. This is the part of the system he is likely exploiting, along with custom label case changes. 

If his 9.8 comic comes back 9.6, he can choose to sell as is, or crack it out for another try. Different graders, different day, may still come back 9.8 next time. Only out the grading cost to retry, which is small change in the scheme of things. Or "scam of things".

Agree 1000%

-bc

[skybolt]

On 12/25/2023 at 2:31 PM, VintageComics said:

I have what 'may' be a small piece of potential good news. 

I spoke to a very prominent, international convention dealer and shared the name of the alleged person involved (the real name, not the name speculated on in this thread) and they replied that they'd never heard the name before. 

This seems to makes it sound like the person allegedly involved may not have done much business on the convention circuit. If they had been on the con circuit, this dealer definitely would have heard of them.

Take that for what you will at this point. I take it as good news that this debacle may not have spread beyond online sales and into convention sales. 

9.9 newsstand mentioned he's taken pictures of him showing off newly CGC graded books at conventions in 2021.

[paqart]

On 12/25/2023 at 6:08 PM, Taxi Driver said:

Do you think LOL??? Let's not look into any terrorist cells right now, this CGC thing is big!!!

They aren't looking at terrorists now anyway. Too busy following grandmas around the country. Seriously though, they have multiple people working at the FBI. Some deal with terrorists, some deal with counterfeits. If you think high value comic book counterfeits are less important or less interesting than counterfeit Levi's jeans, you'd be wrong. Counterfeiting is counterfeiting.

[comicwiz]

Here's what's coming. 778 records for briva3 between 2/12/17 - 12/19/23 to comb through. I have my finest comb set aside. Please be patient as I've just really begun to understand the need to arrange the data so it has the greatest impact, clarify and significance. Because of the span of time, we will not be afforded the opportunity to have certification scans for everything.

For this reason, I'm going to return to the first IH 181 9.0 I found.

But in doing so, I'm going to begin at the point of origin as well, and you'll soon understand why this is critical to present in this manner, because this isn't a discovery process to only determine what was done, and the extent, but the way it invalidates the data as it's been recorded by CGC as well.

So let's jump into it, beginning with the certificaiton screenshot for the Qualified CGC 8.5 (4283015003) IH 181, which includes the original scans, and how the qualified 8.5 become the scans for the Universal CGC 9.0 (4265040003) IH 181. 

4283015003 IH 181 CGC 8.5

Became:

↳ 4265040003 - IH 181 CGC 9.0

 

Edited January 5 by comicwiz

[sledgehammer]

On 12/25/2023 at 5:55 PM, skybolt said:

9.9 newsstand mentioned he's taken pictures of him showing off newly CGC graded books at conventions in 2021.

I don't recall hearing anything like that. did you see this in a video? I don't recall him ever acting like he definitively knows who is doing this.

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by sledgehammer

[comicwiz]

4265040003 - IH 181 CGC 9.0 - 10/31/23 - $7100
- recorded as relisted 9/14/2023 - $9900
- recorded again 7/10/2023 - $9995

It begins with the Qualified sale on 6/27/2023
↳ 4265040003 swapped out and replaced by 4283015003 IH 181 CGC 8.5 - 6/27/2023 - $2499 

4283015003 IH 181 CGC 8.5 - 6/27/2023 - $2499 - below is the donor book to perform the swap

4265040003 - IH 181 CGC 9.0 - 7/10/2023 - $9995 - below is the original IH 181 that was removed, and replaced with the above qualified example

4265040003 - IH 181 CGC 9.0 - 9/14/2023 - $9900 - below is when we first see the qualified example swapped into the universal slab:

4265040003 - IH 181 CGC 9.0 - 10/31/23 - $7100 - this is the last time we see this same book reappear, this time with a new custom label:

 

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by comicwiz

[Sigur Ros]

On 12/25/2023 at 4:29 PM, OJ Pimpson said:

Careful, I received a warning for talk like this yesterday.

You posted their actual comments.  That's not allowed.

On 12/25/2023 at 4:29 PM, OJ Pimpson said:

the whole point of my initial posting was that pressure from competitors might hasten an Acknowledgment of this ordeal from CGC. 

Your comment was they (the competition) "finally" said something.

Truth is, the competition doesn't need to do anything but sit and watch CGC fail.

[bc]

On 12/25/2023 at 7:19 PM, comicwiz said:

Here's what's coming. 778 records for briva3 between 2/12/17 - 12/19/23 to comb through. I have my finest comb set aside. Please be patient as I've just really begun to understand the need to arrange the data so it has the greatest impact, clarify and significance. Because of the span of time, we will not be afforded the opportunity to have certification scans for everything.

For this reason, I'm going to return to the first IH 181 9.0 I found.

But in doing so, I'm going to begin at the point of origin as well, and you'll soon understand why this is critical to present in this manner, because this isn't a discovery process to only determine what was done, and the extent, but the way it invalidates the data as it's been recorded by CGC as well.

So let's jump into it, beginning with the certificaiton screenshot for the Qualified CGC 8.5 (4283015003) IH 181, which includes the original scans, and how briva3 made that qualified 8.5 become the scans for the Universal CGC 9.0 (4265040003) IH 181. 

4283015003 IH 181 CGC 8.5

Became:

↳ 4265040003 - IH 181 CGC 9.0

 

It's also odd how the versions of the grader's notes significantly deviates.

Specifically the foxing notation, which I thought was a fairly important criteria to document.

And the fingerprints don't disappear from the back cover but they do from the notes.

-bc

[skybolt]

On 12/25/2023 at 6:23 PM, sledgehammer said:

I don't recall hearing anything like that. did you see this in a video? I don't recall him ever acting like he definitively knows who is doing this.

@WestcoastDAVEngers

9.9newsstand definitely knows who he is and noted that he's taken a picture of him at a convention. I need to re-watch the podcast to find out when this was said.