ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Mikey C]

I’m not saying this #181 9.4 is tampered with but now any copies with the modern Wolverine label is suspect to me. I don’t have GPA to see if there’s anything fishy with cert# 1972023004. We know he was selling through Grailz but could he also been pushing books through Elite, who some considered the biggest CGC consignment page? 

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by Mikey C

[Yorick]

I am having a problem with the IH 181 9.0.  It's really a Q 8.5 that CGC was fooled NOT ONCE, BUT TWICE.  The same book.  If you had slipped that past them the first time, you must have some knowledge (and BIG balz) that it'll get through AGAIN for the custom label.

Great job @comicwiz 

[pdags]

On 12/26/2023 at 3:10 PM, sledgehammer said:

Did Joe already catch this one?

Shurg...  I don't know who Joe is.  I don't typically hang out on these forums and came here to follow this issue.  The post was delayed several hours because it was my first.  It might've been missed.

I haven't been able to find the source for the fradulent comic, so I think there are better candidates for @comicwiz to track?

[Paul III]

Might have already been posted, but finally a reply from CS. As expected, but they are definitely aware.

 

Thank you for contacting us. I would like to confirm for you we are currently going through a full investigation into this situation. At this time we do not have more information regarding this. Rest assured once we have more information we can share we will let our customers know. I am sorry we currently do not have a timeline for when we will be able to offer more insight. Thank you for your understanding. 
 
I would also just like to personally thank you for reaching out to us via email. While the original post on our boards (now over 130 pages since it was posted this month) was a huge benefit to bringing this to our attention, we truly appreciate you and so many others contacting us directly via email regarding this. If you have any other questions, please let us know. Thank you!

[WolverineX]

On 12/26/2023 at 3:26 PM, Paul III said:

Might have already been posted, but finally a reply from CS. As expected, but they are definitely aware.

 

Thank you for contacting us. I would like to confirm for you we are currently going through a full investigation into this situation. At this time we do not have more information regarding this. Rest assured once we have more information we can share we will let our customers know. I am sorry we currently do not have a timeline for when we will be able to offer more insight. Thank you for your understanding. 
 
I would also just like to personally thank you for reaching out to us via email. While the original post on our boards (now over 130 pages since it was posted this month) was a huge benefit to bringing this to our attention, we truly appreciate you and so many others contacting us directly via email regarding this. If you have any other questions, please let us know. Thank you!

[Bo1983]

On 12/26/2023 at 3:11 PM, greggy said:

I checked three Witching Hour comic books where I had ComicLink to send back to have the pedigree label and proper pedigree notation put on the books.  All three did in fact get the images updated. 

I knew it was you the whole time busted 😂😂

[MAR1979]

On 12/26/2023 at 3:26 PM, Paul III said:

Might have already been posted, but finally a reply from CS. As expected, but they are definitely aware.

 

Thank you for contacting us. I would like to confirm for you we are currently going through a full investigation into this situation. At this time we do not have more information regarding this. Rest assured once we have more information we can share we will let our customers know. I am sorry we currently do not have a timeline for when we will be able to offer more insight. Thank you for your understanding. 
 
I would also just like to personally thank you for reaching out to us via email. While the original post on our boards (now over 130 pages since it was posted this month) was a huge benefit to bringing this to our attention, we truly appreciate you and so many others contacting us directly via email regarding this. If you have any other questions, please let us know. Thank you!

Then I'm now wrong about "no comments" but not about "no statement" at least not yet.  Will be glad to be wrong if it leads to good!

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by MAR1979

[jsilverjanet]

I haven't read all the posts (I apologize) but what I have read makes me believe that the credibility of books graded by CGC now will give people pause before buying (people will want to inspect the book and the grade to match the label) which is probably a good thing for buyers (they should already be doing that)

This will probably hurt the online seller far more that established dealers at shows

should be interesting to see how CGC repairs this temporary damage

in the long run, this will be another blip and only really be remembered by groups like people in this thread

people will continue to submit (especially if books start going back up) and everyone will move on to the next big thing

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by jsilverjanet

[Paul III]

On 12/26/2023 at 11:53 AM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

So I posted a more complicated version of this a few days ago, but I am still trying to wrap my head around this, as I don't believe anything in this is a coincidence.

(sorry if this has already been addressed after my original post about it)

 

Before Briva3 removed all his stuff from ebay he had an Uncanny X-Men 266 9.8 MJ custom label up - it looked like this

https://www.ebay.com/itm/285608152331?hash=item427f928d0b:g:ceUAAOSw1BZle72M

 

Upon checking the Cert # - you see it's already labeled a Mark Jewelers, but not a custom label. 
I refuse to believe that anything he is selling coincidently has some type of error on cgc's end 

i.e. not updating the scan for a reholder.

 

So what are we looking at here? Is this skewing a little towards an inside person who forgot to update the scan? my brain hurts.

 

 

I really don't think this is an inside person. You can run this scam backwards or forwards depending on the outcome you need. You could buy a legit custom label 9.8 MJ, take out the real 9.8 MJ slip in a 9.2 MJ into the custom label case and resubmit for a regular label. Even a cursory look would look like a high grade with the MJ insert and poof a reholdered 9.8 with same cert on a generic blue label. I could see this as a huge benefit moving forward. Watch out for the magicians slight of hand. Now that we are all suspect of 9.8's with custom labels, all the custom labels will be sent in to be reholdered for blue labels. My brain just exploded as well.

Love the new mantra, buy the book, not the case, but probably not the tagline CGC was shooting for. 

[migmtl76]

On 12/26/2023 at 3:14 PM, Yorick said:

I am having a problem with the IH 181 9.0.  It's really a Q 8.5 that CGC was fooled NOT ONCE, BUT TWICE.  The same book.  If you had slipped that past them the first time, you must have some knowledge (and BIG balz) that it'll get through AGAIN for the custom label.

Great job @comicwiz 

There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."

[JMcLean]

On 12/26/2023 at 8:59 PM, migmtl76 said:

There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."

Every time I think of Bush it's this quote... 

[Genuine Article Comics]

So what does this all mean for collectors?  Blind allegiance and loyalty to the company? Angry posts and videos that amount to words only and no action? Jumping ship to the only real choice in 3rdPG? 

The reality is, nothing will come of this. Nothing at all. Collectors will complain and moan, all the while still sending CGC books for grading and CGC smiles at you and gives you the finger. Another scandal arises and it's rinse and repeat from collectors ad nauseam.

This thread will do nothing toward sparking any tangible change because it will do nothing to negatively impact revenues which is the only thing corporations respond to.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Genuine Article Comics

[VintageComics]

On 12/26/2023 at 9:04 AM, Steven Valdez said:

The book looks like it's incurred bonus water damage at the bottom, in the transition from green to blue label.

That waviness is from someone doing a terrible pressign job. They're probably pressing their own books and doing it poorly. 

[MatterEaterLad]

On 12/26/2023 at 1:53 PM, Paul III said:

I really don't think this is an inside person. You can run this scam backwards or forwards depending on the outcome you need.

The dates in the grader's notes are hard to explain away.

A Hulk 181 was graded Green on a Friday and then Blue on the following Tuesday. There's no way someone got their book shipped to them, did the switch, and shipped it back for grading in one working day (Monday). There's someone doing this at CGC, then someone else doing the selling.  

[VintageComics]

On 12/26/2023 at 10:04 AM, Heronext said:

On 12/26/2023 at 9:56 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

I think a separate thread tracking all the green to blue Hulk 181s is a great idea.

@comicwiz

Someone who posted on page 1 could volunteer to create an index of sorts (by editing one of those posts)

They would need to index specific post links and not just pages, because I believe some people's page settings are different, aren't they?

Edited December 26, 2023 by VintageComics

[Iconic1s]

On 12/26/2023 at 2:53 PM, Paul III said:

I really don't think this is an inside person.

The only reason I’m leaning the other way is the sheer volume of the books that have been tampered with, and the speed at which books were moved to new holders/images updated.  Would be hard to be THAT efficient without some assistance.

Either that, or this guy is such an important client, that procedures were circumvented for him (which also isn’t right).  In that case, it’s hard to imagine that none of you old timers (no offense) know this guy.  He’s like a ghost that appeared on the scene with an infinite number of grails and no one ever even met him??  Weird!!

Anyways, that’s all just thinking out loud.  Each book that is dug up just makes this that much more fascinating and troubling.

P.S. from the tone of CGC’s reply, thanking for the PM and mentioning the length of this thread, it seems that they may not appreciate this lengthy public dialogue.  Rather keep it quiet and handle it, or maybe I’m reading into it too much.

[VintageComics]

On 12/26/2023 at 11:28 AM, Stefan_W said:

I agree when looking at the front but the back makes me far less sure. The staining looks much worse in the blue label version which would be post-switch. There is also pronounced creasing on the back cover that is not in the green label. This could just be a function of the (updated) picture of the green label being at a lower resolution, but while the front cover looks like a match I am not seeing a slam dunk when taking the back into account. I dunno, and I am sure people will disagree with me on this, but I am seeing a "maybe" with this one specific book. The others shown so far were more convincing. 

Lighting and equipment can make books look dramatically different, especially small tonal changes. 

We've proven this in previous grading contests where 9.4's can look like 7.5's and visa versa. Looking for the unequivocal markers and 'fingerprints' which are much more objective than subjective, subtle things. 

[agamoto]

On 12/26/2023 at 1:15 PM, MatterEaterLad said:

The dates in the grader's notes are hard to explain away.

A Hulk 181 was graded Green on a Friday and then Blue on the following Tuesday. There's no way someone got their book shipped to them, did the switch, and shipped it back for grading in one working day (Monday). There's someone doing this at CGC, then someone else doing the selling.  

The 9.8 Canadian Price ASM 238 I found sold by the perp on ebay 8/2/2023, a book that CGC notes indicate was graded ON THE SAME DAY, is still my favorite WTF? in all this mess.

 

[darkstar]

On 12/26/2023 at 3:15 PM, MatterEaterLad said:

The dates in the grader's notes are hard to explain away.

A Hulk 181 was graded Green on a Friday and then Blue on the following Tuesday. There's no way someone got their book shipped to them, did the switch, and shipped it back for grading in one working day (Monday). There's someone doing this at CGC, then someone else doing the selling.  

The grade date on the page for the universal copy is the original grading date. It doesn't update when the book is submitted for a re-holder and/or custom label. The book was graded in February and didn't sell until June, plenty of time to have it sent back for a re-holder or custom label.

There is no way someone at CGC could be doing this, to somehow manage to sequester tens or hundreds of shipments from a single submitter, and then be solely responsible for all of those books from intake to shipping? Absolutely not, there is no way the division of labor is broken down like that.  

[BCR]

On 12/26/2023 at 3:05 PM, Genuine Article Comics said:

So what does this all mean for collectors?  Blind allegiance and loyalty to the company? Angry posts and videos that amount to words only and no action? Jumping ship to the only real choice in 3rdPG? 

The reality is, nothing will come of this. Nothing at all. Collectors will complain and moan, all the while still sending CGC books for grading and CGC smiles at you and gives you the finger. Another scandal arises and it's rinse and repeat from collectors ad nauseam.

This thread will do nothing toward sparking any tangible change because it will do nothing to negatively impact revenues which is the only thing corporations respond to.

I actually disagree. I think re-holdered books will be scrutinized more aggressively by buyers. I think buyers will finally be more discerning when it comes to buying a book based just on grade. Actually look at the book you’re buying, ya know? Have your OWN grading system that you can apply to the book. 
 

of course books with tattoos, coupons, etc, I think those will require an investigation if they’re in the new label. 
 

Also, this won’t have any impact whatsoever on modern books tbh. This is more of an issue for bronze, silver and golden age. 
 

And further? I think we’ll see a policy change at CGC where re-hollering is now a new grading (which is what it should have always been). 
 

Last, I genuinely could see CBCS getting a bit of a boost because of this.