AF #15 CGC 9.0 on the 'link

[Durden08]

For instance, if I sold my SA collection tomorrow and didn't get all my money back, I'd be extremely upset. However, I could take a 30% hit on my GA collection and still be content at the end of the day, because I enjoyed collecting and hunting for these books.

 

Well put. That's how I and probably many other GA collectors feel.

[Norrin_Radd]

Timely's are not cheap and I don't think they will be getting any cheaper in the near future, nor do I beleive that there will be less GA collectors 5 years from now. If anything there might be a resurgence of interest when some of these older long time collectors start to unload their collections into the market. Personally I'm off SA books for a while because the fact that I can really buy whatever book I desire at almost any time is a bit of a turn off for me. I don't feel the same about GA books and I want to try and obtain then hold some pieces for the long-term.

 

I feel the same way you do. What a lot of people take for granted with GA books is the love affair factor. If someone had told me 2 years ago that my collection would consist of about 250 CGC graded GA books, I'd say they were crazy! At that time I was mostly interested in SA and BA Marvels. One day I decided to pick-up one or two GA books for the nostalgia feel. I purchased a VG copy of Batman #37, a VF copy of Sensation Comics #69, and a FN+ copy of Action Comics #120. I was so intrigued by these books that I kept purchasing more and more. I began to collect some early Batmans, then moved over to Action, then to Sensations, and finally to good girl art. Over the past 2 years, I've only purchased 1 SA book (JIM #85 in FN/VF condition). I'm not saying that all SA or BA collectors will fall in love with GA books, but no one can tell until they try. The GA forum helped a lot as well, since I was now interested in the history behind these iconic books.

 

With regards to GA collecting, it's almost like dismissing dating a certain type of girl because you may feel that her values are too old fashioned for you. However, when you start dating for about 6 months to a year, then you realize that she's the perfect girl for you. That's how I now feel with GA books. For instance, if I sold my SA collection tomorrow and didn't get all my money back, I'd be extremely upset. However, I could take a 30% hit on my GA collection and still be content at the end of the day, because I enjoyed collecting and hunting for these books.

 

I agree. There are a few GA grails that I am much more interested in acquiring (and keeping permanently) than any SA/BA comic. There's just something about those old GA comics that SA will never have, despite the fact that SA is getting quite old itself.

 

I personally hope there is a glut of GA books in the next 5-10 years keeping prices down.

[Norrin_Radd]

The illusion of rarity has been lifted by CGC. And we are left with the FACT that no SA key is scarce, even in HG.

Norinn, I assume you're talking about Marvels only.

 

Actually, I happen to have a box full of NM Adventure #247s in my basement. Although, they may have gotten wet when it flooded last fall. I haven't checked on them yet.

[FlyingDonut]

BTW - just remember that if you say a CGC book sells for "Guide" it is actually selling for at least $45 UNDER Guide, because there's the slabbing cost. Just my two cents.

[esquirecomics]

BTW - just remember that if you say a CGC book sells for "Guide" it is actually selling for at least $45 UNDER Guide, because there's the slabbing cost. Just my two cents.

 

Well, it is still selling for Guide (i.e., that is the sales price), but the seller is not reaping the full monetary benefits.

 

No different than a Buyers Premium with the auction houses. If the book sells for $1,000 + 10% BP, i.e., $1,100. Although the seller only gets $1,000, the book sold for $1,100.

 

Silly Donut!

[adamstrange]

For instance, if I sold my SA collection tomorrow and didn't get all my money back, I'd be extremely upset. However, I could take a 30% hit on my GA collection and still be content at the end of the day, because I enjoyed collecting and hunting for these books.

 

I would mourn the loss of the my favorite GA/Atomic Age comics, regardless of the price that they sold for. I really did not have a hard time selling SA keys and runs because I had owned them for enough years and, more importantly, I can look around and see many equal or better copies.

 

When I started out collecting, I looked for GA comics as well as for SA because I was aware of them through the DC 100 pagers and various reprint books. But I'm a bit of a historian and like early stuff, including, for example, silent movies. There are a certain percentage of folks who are like that and a certain percentage that start in one era, and then gravitate to the early material for a variety of reasons, including the challenge. That's why I think there will always be some level of interest in GA regardless of the fact that no one from an era is around any more.

[FFB]

There are a certain percentage of folks who are like that and a certain percentage that start in one era, and then gravitate to the early material for a variety of reasons, including the challenge. That's why I think there will always be some level of interest in GA regardless of the fact that no one from an era is around any more.

 

Same here. I've been a silver age guy since I started collecting, but I've lost interest in most silver age books because of the large supplies of high grade issues and the prices required to buy them. Golden age seems like more of a challenge to collect and there aren't high grade copies in quantity, and I find the early DC covers (especially the pre-hero covers by Flessel and the early Action Comics covers by O'Mealia and Guardineer) to be a lot more fun to look at. When you compare the prices of high grade GA with high grade silver age books, the narrowing gap makes me want to direct my resources toward GA in the future. And this is coming from someone who historically paid no attention to GA books.

 

And with 20-year-old collectors like CW spending a lot of their resources on GA books, I don't think we're in any danger of running out of GA collectors in the future.

[tth2]

The illusion of rarity has been lifted by CGC. And we are left with the FACT that no SA key is scarce, even in HG.

Norinn, I assume you're talking about Marvels only.

 

Actually, I happen to have a box full of NM Adventure #247s in my basement. Although, they may have gotten wet when it flooded last fall. I haven't checked on them yet.

[Jacey]

Honestly, by the time I am 40 (15 years *shudder*) I figure interest in both ages will be largely dead with the exception of the primo books, and I really don't expect either market to experience significant growth between then and now.

 

Thankfully I cheerfully disagree. Short version- I think that several factors, including the popularity of all the recent successful movies, will bring more collectors in, young people like me (28 on Sunday), will have disposable income and want to collect.........I don't know how much growth there will be, but I see it going forward as opposed to going backward.

 

Do you think that collectors my age (on the cusp of big earning potential) will have as much interest in silver age books as the generation directly older than us? Hulk 181 is our Action 1 and ASM 129 is out Tec 27. I think these markets are pretty much closed outside of a small trickle of fresh blood (like me) and are propped up by people who will be dead or retired in a few decades. On the other hand, if you are looking only at the next ten years or so, I think silver might have some juice left in it after all.

 

I see people my age at conventions, heck I started buying SA Spideys before I was 21. I already have a 9.0 181 and a 9.4 129, wooooo!!

[Scrooge]

Yes Jacey, but what will it take for you and those other people drawn to the medium in a similar fashion to want to buy / collect those older books (GA)? As someone mentioned, I am attracted to GA purely because I have always been attracted by "things of the past" (so recent and yet so alien). I fear that it's still not demonstrating that there will be renewed / continued demand for second and third tier GA books.

[adamstrange]

Yes Jacey, but what will it take for you and those other people drawn to the medium in a similar fashion to want to buy / collect those older books (GA)? As someone mentioned, I am attracted to GA purely because I have always been attracted by "things of the past" (so recent and yet so alien). I fear that it's still not demonstrating that there will be renewed / continued demand for second and third tier GA books.

 

I'll agree with that.

 

I think there are trends moving some GA books up and others down, or at least to not appreciate as much. For example, Westerns seem to have a relatively high price ratio relative to superhero comics given that there doesn't seem to be that much interest in them. And I say that as someone that likes some of the western comics quite alot. I was generalizing earlier when I said that I expect there to be some level of interest in GA.

[jkc313]

I find the notion that someone out there believes that there is a more important and more valuable silver age DC than Showcase #4 to be quite ludicrous. I could prattle on and on about the importance of Showcase #4 but the sheer act of prattling the obvious seems like a terrible waste of valuable brain cells.

 

Steve

 

Was hoping Steve would show up. Prattle away, As to another post, yes if like graded Showcase 4 and Flash 105 were same price, I'd take the Showcase 4. Showcase 4 is a GREAT book. It starts the Silver Age. It brings back a revamped new hero. STeve, let us know how many gigh grade copies you've sold of this book as compared to B&B 28

keith

[jkc313]

Have you or anyone else on this thread ever read an Adventure 247? It's a TERRIBLE comic. Yes, it's rare and yes it's very tough in grade but the book is a dog! I was around when all these books came out and although I was weaned on DC, I hated the Legion as did most of my friends. Bouncing Boy a super hero? Hell, the Baxter Building's mailman could wiggle his ears, why not make him a super hero. I agree with Bob's take. Flash 105 is impossible in grade and I'd rather have that than Showcase 4. Also agree with WOnder Woman 105. Showcase 22 another personal favorite but to me B&B 28 is THE Silver DC key and is probably the most important comic ever printed as it DID lead to Ff1 and the rest is history. Ok, I know I've started a war so all you Legion fans pipe up with why you previously or now would ever want to read a Legion book ( other than Saturn Girl's short skirt!) Which remainds me of another favorite; Action 252. ANyone have documented sales of this book in Grade?

 

My point is that opinions change across generations and the Adv 247 rep has changed somewhat because of those that read what they considered to be well-written series by Levitz/Grell or Giffen. Those readers then go back and try to get the original even though it might have been despised at the time by the cognoscenti among the original readership. I don't regard those collectors as stupid or irrational any more than I do myself. Collectors of art or antiques would look down on ALL of us for buying "stupid stuff" like Flash or FF or whatever your favorite comic book character happens to be.

 

When you say you would rather own a Flash 105 than a Showcase 4, doesn't price enter into it? If you had a choice between a Flash 105 in 9.6 and Showcase 4 in 9.6, both only and highest-graded at the SAME price, would you choose the Flash 105? If not, at what price ratio is the tipping point between the two?

 

B&B 28 is the single most important? That's based on the golf course conversation anecdote, right? Goodman and Lee were not newbies to the comic publishing biz and knew all about superheros, circulation trends, and watching your competitor. Even if the anecdote were true and it was the tipping point (and I'm doubtful it was more than that), Kirby took nothing from that book to create the FF. From a historical perspective, you could more easily take the position that the initial FF was INSPIRED by a combination of the pre-hero monster books, Challengers of the Unknown, GA human torch, and plastic man. Further, if you trully believe that FF 1 was the foundation of modern comics (and I don't know that I would disagree with you), then doesn't it make sense to place it on the pedestal above Showcase 4 and B&B 28? After all, we give Superman/Action 1 the preeminent position when it comes to superheros even though Zorro, The Gladiator, Tarzan, Green Hornet and the Shadow all came before.

 

WW 105 has a knockout cover in high grade and it's darn tough to find, but a historical key? WW 98 is the change from HG Peters (GA artist) to Andru/Esposito (SA artists) and has a new origin/partial origin. Was there any big shift in 105 different than the major shift in 98? What did your friends think of WW when you were a kid? Was the 7.5k for 9.4 back in summer 2002 a bargain or a good deal?

 

All this argument over history won't mean much except to those who use that as a criteria in their collecting. JiveMoFo has previously pointed it's not much interest to him or collectors he interacts with. Darn youngsters, just don't know their history!

 

I concur with much, if not all, of what AS has written. We need to factor in price, at least on some level, for many of these books when we talk about which we would prefer. Depending on the availability of funding, I might prefer a 9.6 Flash #105 to a 9.6 Showcase #4. For one thing it would be much, much cheaper, which would also mean its marketability is likely greater, i.e., more people could afford it. From a financial standpoint I could buy the Marvel Comics #1 CGC 9.0 Pay Copy if I wanted (although my wife would kill me), but as a "dealer" I could not justify the purchase as my likelihood of resale within a reasonable time probably exceeds my ability to have those funds tied up for so long.

 

Keith, I agree with you about Action #252. How about Action #242? Introduction of a key Superman villan and impossible to find in HG.

 

ABsolutely 242 another great book and stunning purple cover. Would love to find a high grade copy. BTW, I NEVER said anyone that liked the early Legion was stupid and I fully understand what you are saying, as the later Legion stories attracted new interest, the older ones became more collectible. That said, the books during the 50's and 60's are terrible, especially when DC had such better books like The Atom, Adam Strange, The Flash,Challengers, Rip Hunter etc.. Mark, I agree wholeheartedly about your price comments. The more expensive a book gets, the smaller the population of buyers. I regretably admit I am no longer in the market for a 9.6 AF 15 or FF1 but might be for a B&B 28 or Flash 105 (or action242,252,adventure 210,Atom #1,Mystery in Space 54,SHowcae 17 etc,)

keith

[jkc313]

It surprises me Adventure 247 is held in such low esteem. The Legion have one of the most loyal followings among DC collectors, probably surpassed only by Batman and JLA fans. Considering that it kicked off one of the longest running SA teams, is notoriously hard to find in high grade, and is priced at only 4 figures in the OS, I don`t think it has nearly the problem with being fully priced that Showcase 4 does.

 

Have you or anyone else on this thread ever read an Adventure 247? It's a TERRIBLE comic. Yes, it's rare and yes it's very tough in grade but the book is a dog! I was around when all these books came out and although I was weaned on DC, I hated the Legion as did most of my friends... Ok, I know I've started a war so all you Legion fans pipe up with why you previously or now would ever want to read a Legion book ( other than Saturn Girl's short skirt!)

Consider the war started!

 

This is cool, because we could never interact with your rants and raves when they were published in CBM.

 

In all honesty, I can't defend Adventure 247 either, as it was a non-descript story in a non-descript title, which is probably one reason why it's so hard to find today. Clearly its importance is retroactive, but that's okay, there are plenty of comics that share that characteristic. The Legion was a superb series, particularly once the teen-aged Jim Shooter started writing it. You might not have liked it, but lots of others clearly did. The SA series was certainly one of my favorite DC series, and interest only grew as the title progressed into the Dave Cockrum/Mike Grell era, and then even more into the Keith Giffen issues.

 

Fact: the group appeared almost continuously for over 3 decades, and was the clear headline act in Adventure starting from #300, and after a brief hiatus resumed being the headline act in Superboy from #200.

 

Fact: The only DC characters with longer running appearances are Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, GL and JLA.

 

Fact: there are a bunch of Legion collectors, who bought the issues when they were being produced and have continued to buy back issues today.

 

Therefore, being the obsessive completists that we are, it's not surprising that Adventure 247 assumes its importance and value from Legion collectors who want to go back and pick up the first appearance, as well as the other early appearances. In fact, I would argue that it's harder to find their other early appearances, in sub-300 Adventure and Action, than it is to find #247.

 

Fact: tth2 is a lawyer

Fact: tth2 tells you to cease and desist

Fact: tth2 says try this again, and he'll sue you a** off

 

Damn. This is fun. I hear what you say. When did Shooter take over? I thoroughly enjoyed the Grell, Giffen Legion and probably read and enjoyed some of Shooter's. The ones I refer to are up to about 1964. Also, Richie Rich and ARchie have lasted decades but their longevity doesn't equate with readable content or collectability.

keith

[adamstrange]

Damn. This is fun.

 

Kinda like the letter columns in first run of CBM?

 

I don't think Carter understood how interesting it is to watch folks go at it in a friendly way.

[Aman619]

somebody call Gary and get HIM on here!! Unless he already is?

[JuliusSeizure]

It surprises me Adventure 247 is held in such low esteem. The Legion have one of the most loyal followings among DC collectors, probably surpassed only by Batman and JLA fans. Considering that it kicked off one of the longest running SA teams, is notoriously hard to find in high grade, and is priced at only 4 figures in the OS, I don`t think it has nearly the problem with being fully priced that Showcase 4 does.

 

Have you or anyone else on this thread ever read an Adventure 247? It's a TERRIBLE comic. Yes, it's rare and yes it's very tough in grade but the book is a dog! I was around when all these books came out and although I was weaned on DC, I hated the Legion as did most of my friends... Ok, I know I've started a war so all you Legion fans pipe up with why you previously or now would ever want to read a Legion book ( other than Saturn Girl's short skirt!)

Consider the war started!

 

This is cool, because we could never interact with your rants and raves when they were published in CBM.

 

In all honesty, I can't defend Adventure 247 either, as it was a non-descript story in a non-descript title, which is probably one reason why it's so hard to find today. Clearly its importance is retroactive, but that's okay, there are plenty of comics that share that characteristic. The Legion was a superb series, particularly once the teen-aged Jim Shooter started writing it. You might not have liked it, but lots of others clearly did. The SA series was certainly one of my favorite DC series, and interest only grew as the title progressed into the Dave Cockrum/Mike Grell era, and then even more into the Keith Giffen issues.

 

Fact: the group appeared almost continuously for over 3 decades, and was the clear headline act in Adventure starting from #300, and after a brief hiatus resumed being the headline act in Superboy from #200.

 

Fact: The only DC characters with longer running appearances are Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, GL and JLA.

 

Fact: there are a bunch of Legion collectors, who bought the issues when they were being produced and have continued to buy back issues today.

 

Therefore, being the obsessive completists that we are, it's not surprising that Adventure 247 assumes its importance and value from Legion collectors who want to go back and pick up the first appearance, as well as the other early appearances. In fact, I would argue that it's harder to find their other early appearances, in sub-300 Adventure and Action, than it is to find #247.

 

Fact: tth2 is a lawyer

Fact: tth2 tells you to cease and desist

Fact: tth2 says try this again, and he'll sue you a** off

 

Damn. This is fun. I hear what you say. When did Shooter take over? I thoroughly enjoyed the Grell, Giffen Legion and probably read and enjoyed some of Shooter's. The ones I refer to are up to about 1964. Also, Richie Rich and ARchie have lasted decades but their longevity doesn't equate with readable content or collectability.

keith

Shooter's first Legion was Adventure 346. Count me in as a huge Legion fan, I even enjoyed the digest-size reprints of the earlier stories back in the '80s. I went as far as the Watchmen-ripoff in the late 80s (which actually was not that bad, creatively), but got off the bus when they rebooted everything around "Zero Hour".

 

To me, the Legion stories in Adventure might just be the highlight of early- to mid-SA DC from a perspective of pure enjoyment of the stories.

[supapimp]

hands down easily as one of the best threads ever! thanks to the great keith contarino!

[jkc313]

somebody call Gary and get HIM on here!! Unless he already is?

I love Gary Carter and we had some heated discussions as to what he would let me say without editing. Jon pretty much let me say whatever I wanted in Comics Source and the old updates and bulletins. I looked forward to writing for all the publications. Still have early Comics Sources and CBMs. Great fun to look through them now. Would appear the only thing that's changed are the prices.

As to the Legion, if Shooter came along that late, I probably missed all his issues.

[supapimp]

are you gonna do market reports on here like you did in the old skool OS updates keith? those were the bests!