Dilemma - Another collector had prelim to my piece inked, latest owner says mine is a blueline with no pencils 3 3

[Dr. Balls]

On 4/7/2024 at 9:19 PM, malvin said:

Thanks Jason, especially on doing all that comparison work. I don't think he is angling for resale, he just believes what the auction listing said. He doesn't even believe the Kevin Maguire note, he says too bad we won't have a chance to show Kevin Maguire both pieces at once

Malvin

Yeah, I was probably being a little too presumptive. Like @JadeGiant said, he might just be stinging a little bit in having to look at that piece in a different light now that more information has come out on it. Not everyone processes that as immediately as other people might expect them to.

[vodou]

On 4/8/2024 at 12:56 PM, Dr. Balls said:

Not everyone processes that as immediately as other people might expect them to.

[gumbydarnit]

On 4/8/2024 at 12:14 PM, vodou said:

the often forgotten 6th stage some go through, is slapping trade dress on it and attempting to sell it as unused cover.

 

 

Edited April 8 by gumbydarnit

[Shemp]

Wait I'm confused. Why is everyone comparing the pieces to the published piece. That wasn't the beef.

In the guy's original post he clearly stated that Malvin's piece was the published piece. He KNOWS his isn't the final published piece. 

The beef is...he believes Malvin's piece was lightboxed by Maguire (has no pencils/is inked only) and that he has the final original pencils (later inked by Farmer). That was the issue.

 

Sorry Malvin, but you should have left you comment up that his was a preliminary sketch inked by Mark Farmer and that your piece was both pencils and inks by Maguire. 

[malvin]

On 4/8/2024 at 4:20 PM, Shemp said:

Wait I'm confused. Why is everyone comparing the pieces to the published piece. That wasn't the beef.

In the guy's original post he clearly stated that Malvin's piece was the published piece. He KNOWS his isn't the final published piece. 

The beef is...he believes Malvin's piece was lightboxed by Maguire (has no pencils/is inked only) and that he has the final original pencils (later inked by Farmer). That was the issue.

 

Sorry Malvin, but you should have left you comment up that his was a preliminary sketch inked by Mark Farmer and that your piece was both pencils and inks by Maguire. 

Thanks Shemp

Yes, you are right. The main initial issue was that in an attempt to legitimize his piece when I pointed out to the auction house that it was an inked prelim, the consignor argued that his has real pencils while mine was light boxed (since he can't argue that his was published since it was different from the print). The guy used the auction description on this post, which impugned my piece saying it was light boxed.

Some of my posts also argue that mine was the published one rather than the underlying issue (as did others). Although when he changed his description to be more vague, it implied that his was published.

As for leaving my comment up. My initial attempt was to stop his piece from disparaging mine, and hopefully educate him. I didn't want to harass him if he didn't want to change his mind. As well, I think he bought premium membership since other comments have been deleted.

Hopefully this CGC post doesn't get deleted  and will serve as documentation on the background behind the 2 pieces

Malvin

[Hockeyflow33]

The background lettering is different on his than the final text of the print. With all the focus on small differences of the figures, the background lettering has several huge differences.

Seems obvious which one is the final version that was used for the print and it's Malvin's.

[malvin]

On 4/8/2024 at 7:20 PM, Hockeyflow33 said:

The background lettering is different on his than the final text of the print. With all the focus on small differences of the figures, the background lettering has several huge differences.

Seems obvious which one is the final version that was used for the print and it's Malvin's.

Thanks! But I think your post is an example of @Shemp post above. We got sidetracked in our discussion 

Malvin

[Xatari]

Hey @malvin I do not know if the new owner is on these boards, but he has become friend of mine over the past few months and just got into the hobby.  I assured him you and others who had commented had no ill intent and have excellent reputations in the hobby.  I do think the Comic Link listing was misleading, and it definitely lends a negative experience for a new collector excited to land a nostalgic piece.  I've been there myself as have many others who have chimed in.  Such a bummer when that happens, especially early on.  Best to just have empathy and move on while we use the experience to make new friends through the process. I feel for both of you in the situation.

[dinesh_s]

On 4/7/2024 at 9:49 AM, malvin said:

Here is my story

I have Kevin Maguire Booster Gold and Blue Beetle original pencil and ink piece original of a print of it to sell at conventions.

Kevin sold the prelim separately, and another collector had the prelim inked by Mark Farmer. It got sold a few times and eventually went to auction. I told the auction house that the piece being auctioned was an inked prelim, the consignor double down and said his piece is the true pencil piece, since you can still see the pencils, whereas mine is lightboxed/bluelined because you can no longer see pencils. You can actually see pencils on mine, but it is faint since pencils are usually erased when inked, as experienced collectors would know. I should have pushed harder but that was that.

I did run into Kevin at a con recently, and I had him confirm that mine is pencils and inks and he kindly signed the back attesting to that. Here is my piece on CAF (and I've added extra images showing pencils and Kevin's note note on the back)

https://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=1143049

The latest owner just posted his piece, and he repeated the auction house description (that mine has no pencils). Maybe my comment and message to him was a bit strong, but he said he just wants to be let alone to enjoy his piece, and asked me to delete my comment.

https://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=2009545

Let me add that I don't blame the original collector for inking a prelim (I've done it, although in my case it was an abandoned prelim with no "published" piece). I don't blame the current collector as he is new, but the entire situation is frustrating since my piece is now impugned. And I also get that with prelims, they can get inked to create duplicates (I recall hearing one artist not selling prelims for that very reason)

Heck, this exact same issue was why I bought a partially inked prelim to a piece I already have, so that no one gets it fully inked to confuse what I have:

https://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=906811

https://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=882380

He is probably reading this and I know he has friends on this board. What do to?  Ask him to change his description and I'll delete the comment? He is still convinced that his piece is more legitimate than mine, since you can't see pencils on mine.

Malvin

 

 

I don't have a dog in this race and, as a publisher, it's pretty obvious who has what but I saw the initial comment you left and if that's not bullying I don't know what is. If you're happy with your piece and feel confident, be cool. Don't protest so much.

[MAR1979]

On 4/9/2024 at 1:19 AM, dinesh_s said:

I don't have a dog in this race and, as a publisher, it's pretty obvious who has what but I saw the initial comment you left and if that's not bullying I don't know what is. If you're happy with your piece and feel confident, be cool. Don't protest so much.

nope

Edited April 9 by MAR1979

[comix4fun]

On 4/7/2024 at 10:19 PM, malvin said:

Thanks Jason, especially on doing all that comparison work. I don't think he is angling for resale, he just believes what the auction listing said. He doesn't even believe the Kevin Maguire note, he says too bad we won't have a chance to show Kevin Maguire both pieces at once

Malvin

Isn't his CAF page entitled "My Very Humble Beginning" and "Noobie Collection". 
Isn't that the opposite of telling a 30 year collector (actually him telling...multiple, multi-decade, experienced, veteran, old guard, grey beard, silverback, greatest generation, time-tested, well-seasoned, fully marinated, antedeluvian, crumbly, old-farts-of-the-comic-arts) that he knows better ? *



*and Kevin Maguire, and EVERYONE else but him, the auction house, and the consignor?  
 

[Dr. Balls]

On 4/8/2024 at 11:19 PM, dinesh_s said:

the initial comment you left and if that's not bullying I don't know what is.

I did not read the initial comment, but I would seriously question how one collector could verbally "bully" another collector who does not have any sort of advantage or financial position whatsoever on an original piece of art. There is literally nothing at stake other than - perhaps - a few bucks, personal pride or enjoyment. And who among us doesn't undertake a challenge to our perspective from time to time?

People say stuff all the time, and then change their viewpoint - that's the discussion element in all of this. Hell, I did it right here myself in this thread. I mean, I have to admit that a guy named 'Shemp' bested me in reading into the description in a more detailed fashion than I did.

Sometimes discussions start heated until they are worked out. To me, I believe that's how we communicate professionally as well as personally.

Edited April 9 by Dr. Balls

[Will_K]

Since Malvin has removed his comment, I guess he should stick with that.  But I'm sure the owner of the other piece has to resolve how he feels about it now.  I'm just going to throw it out there... it seems Malvin already knew of the piece and tried to get the auction site to revise their description.  That piece may come on the market again and Malvin will have to fight the battle again. 

[Sean I]

I knew you guys were old but greatest generation???  "Pew Research Center defines this cohort as being born from 1901 to 1927"

[comix4fun]

On 4/9/2024 at 10:00 AM, Sean I said:

I knew you guys were old but greatest generation???  "Pew Research Center defines this cohort as being born from 1901 to 1927"

"Greatest Generation of Comic Art Collecting" 

We don't subscribe to any Wiki-definitions of our status....  

I figured, if anything, it would be the "pre-flood" reference that would get a response as exaggerated. 

Edited April 9 by comix4fun

[Unstoppablejayd]

On 4/9/2024 at 1:18 AM, Xatari said:

Hey @malvin I do not know if the new owner is on these boards, but he has become friend of mine over the past few months and just got into the hobby.  I assured him you and others who had commented had no ill intent and have excellent reputations in the hobby.  I do think the Comic Link listing was misleading, and it definitely lends a negative experience for a new collector excited to land a nostalgic piece.  I've been there myself as have many others who have chimed in.  Such a bummer when that happens, especially early on.  Best to just have empathy and move on while we use the experience to make new friends through the process. I feel for both of you in the situation.

Mike I agree with your sentiment here… but my issue (and I did not see how malicious the comment was) is that once this keeps changing hands with the incorrect description that becomes the “truth” … it’s pretty much my argument with a couple friends who get pencil only published stuffed after market inked. They may not be misrepresenting but once it is misrepresented publicly it is hard to get to the truth, 

[comix4fun]

On 4/9/2024 at 10:15 AM, Unstoppablejayd said:

Mike I agree with your sentiment here… but my issue (and I did not see how malicious the comment was) is that once this keeps changing hands with the incorrect description that becomes the “truth” … it’s pretty much my argument with a couple friends who get pencil only published stuffed after market inked. They may not be misrepresenting but once it is misrepresented publicly it is hard to get to the truth, 

I think that's where the line has to be drawn, and publicly, and loudly. Mistaken attribution, left unchecked, becomes the truth either innocently or unethically, when it is not disinfected with the bright light of day. 

We used to have this discussion in the past over inked recreations or inked prelims where the inker doesn't clearly mark, in the art area (usually by the signature) that they both inked it and that it's "after" someone else or a "recreation", etc. It's not pleasant and people will disagree but it's something that needs to occur and occur where everyone can see it so the air is clear. Lots of horrible things happen in hobbies when details, facts, and alterations to items happen outside of view. 

[malvin]

On 4/9/2024 at 7:53 AM, Will_K said:

Since Malvin has removed his comment, I guess he should stick with that.  But I'm sure the owner of the other piece has to resolve how he feels about it now.  I'm just going to throw it out there... it seems Malvin already knew of the piece and tried to get the auction site to revise their description.  That piece may come on the market again and Malvin will have to fight the battle again. 

Thanks Will, that's exactly it. No point me leaving a comment but I will probably have to fight that battle again next time it comes to market.

Malvin

[Michael Browning]

On 4/9/2024 at 11:25 AM, malvin said:

Thanks Will, that's exactly it. No point me leaving a comment but I will probably have to fight that battle again next time it comes to market.

Malvin

Honestly, it sucks that this has happened to you, Malvin, and will certainly come back up in the future. It truly sucks. And, again, honestly, if it was my piece and I didn't love it, I'd get rid of it so that I didn't have to keep fighting the battles whenever the subject comes up. I've done that with a couple pieces.

Edited April 10 by Michael Browning

[Hockeyflow33]

On 4/9/2024 at 1:19 AM, dinesh_s said:

I don't have a dog in this race and, as a publisher, it's pretty obvious who has what but I saw the initial comment you left and if that's not bullying I don't know what is. If you're happy with your piece and feel confident, be cool. Don't protest so much.

These aren't 9 year olds so I don't know how an adult is getting bullied when someone is telling them what they're saying is wrong.