Is anyone else getting books back with warped inner wells? 25 25

[DanJD]

On 8/28/2024 at 11:57 AM, LordRahl said:

Can we please stop with this garbage? No one is getting different treatment. All of the books coming back are bent on modern tier. 

I agree.  I was mostly bringing to attention that they were all bent based on what I read.  I do not think there is special treatment and believe it is happening to the large submitters too who just might not have time to inspect them all.  
*I edited the first line of the original post and the rest read the same. 

Edited August 28 by DanJD

[MAY1979]

On 8/28/2024 at 12:57 PM, LordRahl said:

Can we please stop with this garbage? No one is getting different treatment. All of the books coming back are bent on modern tier. 

I'm flexible and am considering your comment, but it means the larger submiters are either blissfully unaware or too scared to speak up, or figure speaking up could destroy their business models which depend on steady flow of new sub returns to sell at FMV or higher.

It's already starting to snowball so sales or amounts of legit bidders thus final hammer totals if at auction will dwindle.  The keeping quiet card may be played out soon.  The only next move for those large submitters is to agree the bending is normal and hope enough rubes believe that.

All this points to resolving the issue will prove too potentially costly as it proves the damage being done is not normal.

I do think the foundation for a paradigm shift has been completed the only question is if it will being a one story building or a soaring into the heavens skyscraper...

 

[LordRahl]

On 8/28/2024 at 10:45 AM, MAY1979 said:

I'm flexible and am considering your comment, but it means the larger submiters are either blissfully unaware or too scared to speak up, or figure speaking up could destroy their business models which depend on steady flow of new sub returns to sell at FMV or higher.

It's already starting to snowball so sales or amounts of legit bidders thus final hammer totals if at auction will dwindle.  The keeping quiet card may be played out soon.  The only next move for those large submitters is to agree the bending is normal and hope enough rubes believe that.

All this points to resolving the issue will prove too potentially costly as it proves the damage being done is not normal.

I do think the foundation for a paradigm shift has been completed the only question is if it will being a one story building or a soaring into the heavens skyscraper...

 

Yes, some combination of all of that I imagine. It's unfortunately short sighted. Some yahoo on one of the socials, who appears to be a large submitter, says all of his books are straight as an arrow however when asked to post a side pic, only posted one of a book straight on and not profile... predictably.

[DanJD]

On 8/28/2024 at 12:58 PM, LordRahl said:

Yes, some combination of all of that I imagine. It's unfortunately short sighted. Some yahoo on one of the socials, who appears to be a large submitter, says all of his books are straight as an arrow however when asked to post a side pic, only posted one of a book straight on and not profile... predictably.

Ha.  We must be part of the same social media discussions as I also have asked and am ignored.  “My books are perfect!  Look at this box of comics from the top view!”  Questioning something wrong and not blindly following means you’re not a CGC Comic Fan…apparently.

Edited August 28 by DanJD

[greggy]

On 8/28/2024 at 10:58 AM, LordRahl said:

Yes, some combination of all of that I imagine. It's unfortunately short sighted. Some yahoo on one of the socials, who appears to be a large submitter, says all of his books are straight as an arrow however when asked to post a side pic, only posted one of a book straight on and not profile... predictably.

I will say that the box that I received today does appear to have the curved inner well.

I would say that none of the books were as affected as the worse ones seen here but other than a few of the thicker books which seem to be more stable, there is some form of stress.  Some more innocuous than others like we've seen on books on the top edge where it looks like it's wrinkled but when released from its coffin as stated by @joeypost in the past, it reverts back to normal.

I understand that some of the damage shown in this thread won't be able to be fixed to its original state but I've been numbed to issues during my 20 plus years of submitting.  I've seen issues like this on books graded over tens years but those may be more of an anomaly.  As I stated in the past, my main concern in the past is if the case is cracked and any SCS.  I don't normally have the time or patience to look through a ton of books but I only got this box today.  I did finally get a box from CGC with their new way of packing which I like very much even though it's much bulkier.

I think this relates to CGC fixing the newton rings issue but it caused a new one.  

Other than this I await my other orders.  Maybe that's why my order in Grading/QC hasn't been shipped yet, as CGC is figuring out the issue.

Just my thoughts.  

Edited August 28 by greggy
Correction for clarity

[LordRahl]

On 8/28/2024 at 11:27 AM, greggy said:

I will say that the box that I received today does appear to have the curved inner well.

I would say that none of the books were as affected as the worse ones seen here but other than a few of the thicker books which seem to be more stable, there is some form of stress.  Some more innocuous than others like we've seen on books on the top edge where it looks like it's wrinkled but when released from its coffin as stated by @joeypost in the past, it reverts back to normal.

I understand that some of the damage shown in this thread won't be able to be fixed to its original state but I've been numbed to issues during my 20 plus years of submitting.  I've seen issues like this on books graded over tens years but those may be more of an anomaly.  As I stated in the past, my main concern in the past is if the case is cracked and any SCS.  I don't normally have the time or patience to look through a ton of books but I only got this box today.  I did finally get a box from CGC with their new way of packing which I like very much even though it's much bulkier.

I think this relates to CGC fixing the newton rings issue but it caused a new one.  

Other than this I await my other orders.  Maybe that's why my order in Grading/QC hasn't been shipped yet, as CGC is figuring out the issue.

Just my thoughts.  

I get it Greg. I too do not have the time and patience to closely look at every book I get back, especially from the side. The only reason I noticed and started the thread is I got back a 9.8 of what is, or was, a 4 figure book which had noticeable spine stress where there wasn't any when sent in and noticed the bent well, which led to me looking at all of the books I got back and seeing to my surprise that they were all bent to some degree. Most not bad and I wouldn't have noticed at all if not specifically looking for it, but some enough to no longer be 9.8 at a glance. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 8/28/2024 at 11:44 AM, LordRahl said:

which had noticeable spine stress where there wasn't any when sent in

[RockMyAmadeus]

[MadGenius]

On 8/28/2024 at 1:45 PM, MAY1979 said:

I'm flexible and am considering your comment, but it means the larger submiters are either blissfully unaware or too scared to speak up, or figure speaking up could destroy their business models which depend on steady flow of new sub returns to sell at FMV or higher.

It's already starting to snowball so sales or amounts of legit bidders thus final hammer totals if at auction will dwindle.  The keeping quiet card may be played out soon.  The only next move for those large submitters is to agree the bending is normal and hope enough rubes believe that.

All this points to resolving the issue will prove too potentially costly as it proves the damage being done is not normal.

I do think the foundation for a paradigm shift has been completed the only question is if it will being a one story building or a soaring into the heavens skyscraper...

 

If CGC's plan is to never fix the issue then they might as well close their doors immediately. Now that the word is out, people will stop buying and submitting if the curve becomes "normal." The fact that it has their attention now and hasn't been fixed yet means they don't have a clue how to fix it. That's marginally better that doing nothing at all as there is at least the hope they will figure it out. In the meantime, no buying already slabbed books that were recently graded and no more submissions to CGC.

Edited August 28 by MadGenius

[joeypost]

On 8/28/2024 at 12:53 PM, LordRahl said:

That's a bent well Joe. May be only a "slight" bend but a bend none the less. That book is being damaged by the well. Maybe not enough to cause new spine ticks to form but leave that in there for a couple years and break it out, you'll be left with a bent book which I'm guessing is not what you sent in to be slabbed. 

Of the now several hundred I've seen in hand, they are ALL bent. The vast majority (90% +) are only slightly bent and not causing spine ticks. I've said this before though, NO amount of bending should be acceptable. The fact that it is only slight in the majority is still not an OK thing. 

After reading this I went back in my storage area where I keep my personal slabs. Some of the books show a slight curve to the inner well, but none have introduced any spine issues. 
 

Please keep in mind I store my books spine edge down or flat so it may reduce any issues with curved inner wells by not aiding gravity by storing them upright. It is painfully obvious there is an issue and I hope CGC figures it out ASAP, but it may be appears to be a combination of factors instead of one major issue. 

Edited August 28 by joeypost

[bc]

On 8/28/2024 at 10:19 AM, Stefan_W said:

I went down this road as the thing that sounded the most plausible given the timing and all that. The basic idea is that they started sealing the books all the way around, when the books cool it creates a vacuum, and then the inner well gets pulled into that shape. It appears to make sense.

What that does not explain is why this issue seems largely localized to modern tier books. I just got back a high value submission and all of the inner wells were straight as an arrow. Ditto for an unlimited value sub I did earlier, and my other high value submission in the spring. Slabs in those other tiers are also sealed all the way around and subject to the same heating/cooling. 

The outer case would have to be sealed air-tight to create a vacuum, which I don't believe they are.

-bc

[joeypost]

On 8/28/2024 at 12:55 PM, LordRahl said:

Did you actually LOOK at the only side profile pic Joe has posted so far? 

Please show me visual evidence of "large submitters and influencers receiving premium treatment on 1975-present". So far I have yet to see any between here and other social media sites. No one has posted ANY pictures of a totally flat inner well from a modern sub that is not oversized/thick books. 

An older inner well from an earlier submission. 
 

[DC#]

It wasn't until this issue arose that I noticed just how many recently graded books (prior 3-6 months) are included in the Clink and Heritage auctions (and likely CC and IG too).    How many "challenged" books have already changed hands once if not multiple times since the initial grading/encapsulation?    Any resolution will need to acknowledge current owner not just original submitter.  

[LordRahl]

On 8/28/2024 at 12:25 PM, MadGenius said:

If CGC's plan is to never fix the issue then they might as well close their doors immediately. Now that the word is out, people will stop buying and submitting if the curve becomes "normal." The fact that it has their attention now and hasn't been fixed yet means they don't have a clue how to fix it. That's marginally better that doing nothing at all as there is at least the hope they will figure it out. In the meantime, no buying already slabbed books that were recently graded and no more submissions to CGC.

I have a hard time believing this given that non Modern subs don't seem to be affected for the most part. If it was equally affecting all tiers, I would agree with you. But all they need to do is a comparison between what they are doing on Moderns versus non Moderns. Honestly, they should know this right off the bat. The only reason we are left to guess is lack of information, which is not a problem for CGC.

[LordRahl]

On 8/28/2024 at 12:40 PM, DC# said:

It wasn't until this issue arose that I noticed just how many recently graded books (prior 3-6 months) are included in the Clink and Heritage auctions (and likely CC and IG too).    How many "challenged" books have already changed hands once if not multiple times since the initial grading/encapsulation?    Any resolution will need to acknowledge current owner not just original submitter.  

Agreed. And how many thousands of books did they end up having to deal with by taking the short sighted approach of burying their heads in the sand and hoping it would just go away? 

[Stefan_W]

On 8/28/2024 at 3:35 PM, bc said:

The outer case would have to be sealed air-tight to create a vacuum, which I don't believe they are.

-bc

Yeah, agreed. 

[Skytripa]

Not sure if anyone else has done this. When comparing the damage to my books I looked at the online photos that CGC took after encapsulation. I noticed on the book with multiple spine stress their photo does not show anything. So sometime after they took the picture to me getting the book in the mail the damage is there.

[bc]

On 8/28/2024 at 3:54 PM, Stefan_W said:

Yeah, agreed. 

So I took a sheet of paper and put it on the smoothest surface I could find.

I applied a light but equal pressure to the four corners and it created a parabola which turned into more of a saddle with more force.

I then tried doing the same against the centers of the top/bottom/left/right edges and it formed a single wave.

Again, not really scientific, but an interesting thought exercise.

  Maybe, due to the increased amount of ultrasonic welding to reduce swap-gate, the extra heat at the corners is causing the inner sleeves to expand (dare I say mildly melt?) that permanently changes its size? I haven't cracked out any books with the symptoms shown here to see how tight the inner sleeve actually is compared to the outer shell. If it had a very limited variance before the extra welding, even a thousandth or two expansion would create adequate force to cause the warping.

-bc

[Stefan_W]

On 8/28/2024 at 4:07 PM, bc said:

So I took a sheet of paper and put it on the smoothest surface I could find.

I applied a light but equal pressure to the four corners and it created a parabola which turned into more of a saddle with more force.

I then tried doing the same against the centers of the top/bottom/left/right edges and it formed a single wave.

Again, not really scientific, but an interesting thought exercise.

  Maybe, due to the increased amount of ultrasonic welding to reduce swap-gate, the extra heat at the corners is causing the inner sleeves to expand (dare I say mildly melt?) that permanently changes its size? I haven't cracked out any books with the symptoms shown here to see how tight the inner sleeve actually is compared to the outer shell. If it had a very limited variance before the extra welding, even a thousandth or two expansion would create adequate force to cause the warping.

-bc

I just did another video reproducing the bend and I do not see the same impacts. Seems to me like it is a combination of factors that are tough to nail down. 

[bc]

On 8/28/2024 at 4:19 PM, Stefan_W said:

I just did another video reproducing the bend and I do not see the same impacts. Seems to me like it is a combination of factors that are tough to nail down. 

Just watched your new video 

The observation about variable paper stock & ink impacting the warping was cool.

-bc