PGX just stepped on an Atom Bomb. A classic tale of deceit, trimming,and woe.

[jediknight]

I've been cryin' the same old story for how long now? pgx are a bunch a pansie cgc wannabees. Who even buys from those bozos? I'll bet there ain't a board member here who even owns one of these clown lookalikes.

[awe4one]

I'll bet there ain't a board member here who even owns one of these clown lookalikes.

 

 

 

Jim

[Scheradon]

First of all, everyone needs to calm down before you go around defaming someone. Some of these posts above potentially cross the line.

 

Brad, have you contacted Patterson for his side of the story?

 

How many of these specific books has PGX graded? Would they realistically know whether one was trimmed? These promotional books are far more uncommon and very often could have been trimmed beforehand, which is not to say they weren't recently (i.e., why would PGX know they were trimmed now rather than contemporaneous with issue)?

 

I am also interested in the comment that the 9.8 and 9.9 bear the same serial #. Definiitely an explanation is due for this one.

 

I recognize that PGX has had its share of scandals, and I've heard this Leder's guy's name thrown about before (can someone provide the scoop on him, do we need to start exploring legal action like with Ewert?), but the fact that PGX might have missed trimming strikes me as no greater a shock than the hundreds of books that CGC missed. In fact, I would still say that the CGC scandal is far worse b/c CGC's employees have more expertise and experience with the very books that Ewert was trimming.

 

Let's take a deep breath and articulate our facts without emotion. If punishment is deserved, it will be meted out.

 

And don't forget that not only does the book have the same seriel #, but also the same grade date.

 

Even with all the Ewart/CGC books, there never seemed to be this kind of smoking gun of collusion between the two. Whereas CGC looks guilty of just missing trimming at this point, PGX looks guilty of possibly more than that. I'm just not sure how something like this happens.

 

I need to catch up on the past history myself here as this is the first I've heard of this connection, but it isn't looking good for PGX right now.

[panhandlefool]

I'll throw my two cents worth on all this, both this and the Ewert thing (I'm currently due a check from Mr. Brulato for a trimmed book myself). I think, a few years ago, when CGC was very new, most people realized (or thought) that this would definitely "legitamize" investments in comics and provide certain assurances about the graded books. And, as most people thought, these graded books commanded higher prices due to the third-party grading, and the security that comes along with it.

 

However, one thing I failed to think through completely was that with more money, comes more greed and, ultimately, fraud occurs, whether the grading company is involved or completely a victim themselves. And the extra $$ being thrown around would lead to unscrupulous people coming into the hobby, or turning "good people bad", etc.

 

I suppose, in hindsight, things like this were inevitable. There's just too much $$ chasing first-class graded books. If someone could bump their books just .2 points, the temptation is there, consider we, the buyers, will pay hundreds/thousands/tens of thousands for a 9.8 over a 9.6, a 9.6 over a 9.4, a 9.4 over a 9.2, etc.

 

Are we to blame? I'm definitely not saying that. I guess I'm saying this was inevitable, perhaps we shouldn't be as surprised as we seem to be, and it's such a waste. All these books were great books before the hatchet-jobs they are now. All for the desire for the all-mighty dollar...

[esquirecomics]

First of all, everyone needs to calm down before you go around defaming someone. Some of these posts above potentially cross the line.

 

Brad, have you contacted Patterson for his side of the story?

 

How many of these specific books has PGX graded? Would they realistically know whether one was trimmed? These promotional books are far more uncommon and very often could have been trimmed beforehand, which is not to say they weren't recently (i.e., why would PGX know they were trimmed now rather than contemporaneous with issue)?

 

I am also interested in the comment that the 9.8 and 9.9 bear the same serial #. Definiitely an explanation is due for this one.

 

I recognize that PGX has had its share of scandals, and I've heard this Leder's guy's name thrown about before (can someone provide the scoop on him, do we need to start exploring legal action like with Ewert?), but the fact that PGX might have missed trimming strikes me as no greater a shock than the hundreds of books that CGC missed. In fact, I would still say that the CGC scandal is far worse b/c CGC's employees have more expertise and experience with the very books that Ewert was trimming.

 

Let's take a deep breath and articulate our facts without emotion. If punishment is deserved, it will be meted out.

 

And don't forget that not only does the book have the same seriel #, but also the same grade date.

 

Even with all the Ewart/CGC books, there never seemed to be this kind of smoking gun of collusion between the two. Whereas CGC looks guilty of just missing trimming at this point, PGX looks guilty of possibly more than that. I'm just not sure how something like this happens.

 

I need to catch up on the past history myself here as this is the first I've heard of this connection, but it isn't looking good for PGX right now.

 

Well if anyone is willing to come forward in the same manner that Ewerts' customers have, it would seem that potential legal action is possible, i.e., we need to hear from people who have purchased books with "manufactured" grades.

[ComicSupply]

I am sorry but there is no way that book got graded the next day or the day after. Even the mailing time wouldn't allow this. And if he can just drop them off then that begs my next point.

 

I have spoken to 2 people who have tried to have a sit down with PGX and they couldn't because they don't have an office or anywhere near professional.

 

My theory is that this Leder is Patterson is PGX or they are "friendly"

[BachelorOfComix]

I'll bet there ain't a board member here who even owns one of these clown lookalikes.

 

 

 

Jim

Sweet "Marvel Tales".....errr.......Tomb of Dracula?

[CKB]

There was an incident on the Valiantfans.com boards not to long ago with the two antagonists in this story. We believe we saw Leder appear as "ryostar" and "christina's collectibles" and Patterson came on to defend PGX a few times, IIRC.

 

There was lots of vaguely fishy stuff going on, but the story that sticks out in my head was where a Harbinger 1 PGX 9.8 magically appeared from "christina's" within seemingly moments of one of the CGC 9.8s selling for big money.

 

I believe it turned out that this was a superior copy of Harbinger 1 though. The buyer, a board member, bought it for much less than the CGC 9.8 and cracked it and summitted to CGC (all from memory, which is fading). I wish I could remember the exact results, but my best recollection is that they were positive.

[Ze-man]

It would have taken me a bit to catch some of the trimming without the before images but along with the ragged edges here and there I noticed at least one book that you can see a dip in the cut then a gradual return to level then an angle down to the corner..... definitely not of the same skill as Ewert's slashman.

 

 

 

Well first off, am I right..micro trimming Ewert style is a different beast then trimming off an entire chunk from a book. Kinda hard to compare the two.

 

I am not used to looking at these type of small cereal giveaways,I have never really ever seen them before. But due to their age, isn't it neigh impossible for them to have a clean razor edge like that? Even if preserved perfectly all these years.

Not these books in paticular, but rather is it possible for books like this to have a clean raw edge like that period. Let alone on all 3 sides.

 

And if not, then I dont see how this kind of trimming could be missed, even through gross negligence, or worse yet incompetence

 

Those in the know please correct me if I am way off here.

 

 

Ze-

[awe4one]

My theory is that this Leder is Patterson is PGX or they are "friendly"

 

Friendly most likely...

 

Jim

[Red Hook]

You outright accused Patterson of not only knowing that trimmed books were being submitted but of trimming himself. You have proof?

 

At least when I have made statements regarding people's conduct I had proof. Not supposition. Not conjecture. Proof.

 

It is called not being a hypocrite as to how you deal with people.

 

FYI, I've met Patterson once, on the panel I hosted in SD.

 

Mark....you are simply sounding foolish. Go back, read the linked threads and then come back and start over. I never said Patterson outright trimmed these books. I said it was quite possible.

 

For the record, I solicited and posted Patterson's opinion on one of his previous problems, the phoney ASM 69 scan. Go back and educate yourself first!

 

And again, since you are alluding to Schmell, what proof do you have that he did anything but press books? You may not like pressing, but that's a far cry from trimming and serving as the personal grader for a suspicious dealer. Do you have PROOF that DS did something else other than press and resub? I haven't seen anything else from you. You've have still missed my whole point about my concern about the treatment of DS on these boards.

 

And what does your meeting Patterson have anything to do with this?

 

If you could just slow your pontification pace and STFU for a couple of minutes, try a little humility and just educate yourself fully with the backstory on this.....and stop posting inaccuracies, you'll look less of a dope.

 

One more thing....I love it that you think the only ultimate outcome of this is legal action. It all leads to legal action, right? It isn't a real problem until a lawyer is billing for it right? Baloney. (and I apologize to the other attorneys on the boards.)

 

There are enough question about Patterson, the structure of PGX and their relationship to TD/Leder to make me quite sure I am talking about serious stuff. There is also evidence existing that links a lot of this together. Again, if you slowed down, and stopped your inflated yapping, maybe you'd learn something. Hate to tell you, but you're not the final authority around here.

 

Best, Brad

[Anfield Fox]

You kids need to calm down.

[Red Hook]

I'll bet there ain't a board member here who even owns one of these clown lookalikes.

 

[Mr. Zipper]

I'll bet there ain't a board member here who even owns one of these clown lookalikes.

 

 

I have about a half dozen CGG/PGA/PGX slabs. Sure, the current situation looks bad, but (as with CGC and Ewert), I'm sure the vast majority of PGX slabs are fairly graded and have a decent resto check... still generally safer than buying raw on ebay.

 

From the beginning I gave PGX the benefit of the doubt and even defended them against a lot of the immature "my team is better than yours" type attacks.

 

The latest development, however, is pretty hard to defend. I still think CGC needs a viable competitor to keep their feet to the fire... but it's not looking like PGX is going to be it.

[Red Hook]

The evidence of the fact that PGX is, at the very least missing trimming is as good or better than the evidence the started Ewert on his highway to hell.

[Mr. Zipper]

The evidence of the fact that PGX is, at the very least missing trimming is as good or better than the evidence the started Ewert on his highway to hell.

 

True. CGC, however, was able to dodge the bullet and didn't go down with Ewert.

 

Will PGX be able to do the same?

[Illiterati-migration]

The evidence of the fact that PGX is, at the very least missing trimming is as good or better than the evidence the started Ewert on his highway to hell.

 

True. CGC, however, was able to dodge the bullet and didn't go down with Ewert.

 

Will PGX be able to do the same?

 

Of course not. PGX will be much more heavily scrutinized and ridiculed.

[Mr. Zipper]

True. CGC, however, was able to dodge the bullet and didn't go down with Ewert.

 

Will PGX be able to do the same?

 

Of course not. PGX will be much more heavily scrutinized and ridiculed.

 

No doubt. I'm not excusing PGX by any stretch of the imagination, but if they had a BSD Registry and legions of specu-investors heavily tied into PGX slabs, you'd find a lot more people turning a blind eye and/or going into spin mode.

[The Black Hand ®]

Excellent point, PGX doesn't have the power of a thousand apologist mucking up the view. So one scandal for them appears to be equal to 10 CGC scandals. I don't know what the truth is here, but I think two great guys like RedHook and Esquirecomics don't need to argue, it's pointless. I don't trust either grading company, but going after one grading company on it's larger competitors web site boards, might give the wrong impression, rightly or wrongly, possibly both. Just a thought.

[Flaming_Telepath]

You outright accused Patterson of not only knowing that trimmed books were being submitted but of trimming himself. You have proof?

 

At least when I have made statements regarding people's conduct I had proof. Not supposition. Not conjecture. Proof.

 

It is called not being a hypocrite as to how you deal with people.

 

FYI, I've met Patterson once, on the panel I hosted in SD.

 

Mark....you are simply sounding foolish. Go back, read the linked threads and then come back and start over. I never said Patterson outright trimmed these books. I said it was quite possible.

 

For the record, I solicited and posted Patterson's opinion on one of his previous problems, the phoney ASM 69 scan. Go back and educate yourself first!

 

And again, since you are alluding to Schmell, what proof do you have that he did anything but press books? You may not like pressing, but that's a far cry from trimming and serving as the personal grader for a suspicious dealer. Do you have PROOF that DS did something else other than press and resub? I haven't seen anything else from you. You've have still missed my whole point about my concern about the treatment of DS on these boards.

 

And what does your meeting Patterson have anything to do with this?

 

If you could just slow your pontification pace and STFU for a couple of minutes, try a little humility and just educate yourself fully with the backstory on this.....and stop posting inaccuracies, you'll look less of a dope.

 

One more thing....I love it that you think the only ultimate outcome of this is legal action. It all leads to legal action, right? It isn't a real problem until a lawyer is billing for it right? Baloney. (and I apologize to the other attorneys on the boards.)

 

There are enough question about Patterson, the structure of PGX and their relationship to TD/Leder to make me quite sure I am talking about serious stuff. There is also evidence existing that links a lot of this together. Again, if you slowed down, and stopped your inflated yapping, maybe you'd learn something. Hate to tell you, but you're not the final authority around here.

 

Best, Brad

 

Brad, I'm going to go with you on 95% of this...there is enough evidence going back 18 months/2 years to sink this little scum-bag run, money-printing operation. At the very best, Leder is a very close friend of Paterson's and they are closely colluding. At worst?

 

Patterson is Leder...and that's not something that can be dismissed out of hand.

 

And I also agree with the legal action comment. Whilst a sanction that can be considered, just how friggin' long is it taking to get CGC's arses into a courtroom? And what have they been able to get away with whilst the whole thing is in process?

 

Forget legal action....it's useless on too many counts. Let's start vigilante action!

 

I have over 1,000 e-mail addresses of comic buyers. I have no objection to spamming every last one of them. Anyone want to write a 'brief'?

 

One thing I'm going to pull you on though, matey, is the comment regarding Doug. Until such time as Mr Schmell produces the receipts he promised many months ago (that have apparently disappeared), his yarns (and there were a few versions) cannot hang together and he IS guilty of more than pressing and resubbing...at least in my eyes and the eyes of a great number of boarders.

 

Ask yourself...why has he forgotten to do as he said he would and prove his innocence? Surely this must be THE most important thing to him, if he wants to keep his boat afloat?