Do people listing on Comiclink even care about GPA? 0

[JJBEE2001]

It's the old saying that the ultimate value of something is what you're willing to pay. In my case, I bought a CGC 5.0 pre-Sandman Adventure off Comiclink for $700. The OSPG lists 4.0 at $400 & 6.0 at $600. However, the copy I bought is the highest-graded unrestored copy & since early Adventures seem to keep rising in value, I really don't feel like I overpaid.

 

I've never used GPA & really don't have any interest in it. I know what I'm willing to pay for a book despite what the Guide or GPA says. As far as selling, I know what I want to get for a book. If no one is willing to pay that much, I simply keep it. It helps that I'm a collector & not a dealer. I love comics; I don't need to make money on them.

[COMICLINK]

I see books listed on there that aren't even the highest graded copies and yet the asking price is more than double of the highest graded copy on GPA!

 

Why is that?

 

I mean, honestly, do you guys that list on Comiclink even care about GPA.

 

Not to mention, the books that I look for aren't necessarily that expensive anyway. ESPECIALLY raw!

 

Most of the books I'm looking for could be picked up in NM for under $25 yet I see CGC graded ones with a GPA of about $60 in 9.6 and people are wanting over $250 on Comiclink whereas the GPA for 9.8's is around $125

 

GPA shows prices realized for sales that they have recorded. Currently, no ComicLink sales are reported to GPA and GPA also lacks retail sales from many other sources. Therefore, their numbers are incomplete, and collectors preaching them as gospel is inaccurate and misleading. One high profile example of is the sale of Hulk #1 CGC 9.0 with white pages which sold in a recent Mastro auction for $33,378 and was reported to GPA. In March 2005, a Hulk #1 in 9.0 with off-white to white pages (I think it is the same book before the page quality upgrade) was sold by a consignor on ComicLink for $50,000. So, what is it worth? Taking the GPA number only, a collector would conclude that it is only worth $33K. Taking the ComicLink number only, a collector would conclude that it is worth $50K. Knowing what it sold for in both places, a reasonable conclusion is that what it is worth depends on who is looking for the book at the time, the client base of the selling venue, the scarcity of the book, and what the buyer (and underbidder) is willing to spend to obtain it. If you are a seller, what the book is worth will also have to take into account, keeping in mind the above factors as well, the total commissions (buyer + seller) of the selling venue. What the seller nets = what the buyer ultimately pays for the item minus the sum of the buyer and seller commissions retained by the selling venue.

 

There are countless examples of items selling on ComicLink for higher than the average GPA numbers (the vast majority of which are comprised of eBay and Heritage sales) or even higher than the book just recently sold for in another venue. Of course, there are also examples where a seller is willing to accept less than GPA numbers for a quick sale (or doesn't know that a book can sell for more than their list price) and the astute buyer can obtain a relative "bargain." Alternatively, an uninformed or greedy seller on ComicLink or anywhere else may overprice a book that is not scarce and it is therefore a pitfall for any buyer that is going to resell in the short-term.

 

Josh Nathanson

www.comiclink.com

 

What's behind your decision not to supply sales data to GPA?

 

I actually recently offered to start supplying some realized prices (selected higher dollar sales) to GPA and they did not appear to be interested.

 

Thanks,

 

Josh Nathanson

www.comiclink.com

 

I'm sure that's because GPA wants all the sales or none of them. .

 

Totally correct, it's all information that's required - I am a bit surprised Josh, I thought I put forward a compelling reason for you to include all sales if you were to report to us, not to cherry pick only a few - and I also explained that's how everyone who reports to us does it so I could not make an exception for one data supplier.

 

BTW, I don't think collectors quoting values from those books traded more often are inaccurate or misleading. From what I see, they're within the range that's realized on ComicLink.

 

And anyone looking at GPA or anything else to price a book based on one or two trades, well that's no different to a collector trying to gauge whether a book being offered by a dealer is fair if there is no historical information to give them some guide.

 

George - you are misinformed - I know for a fact that some dealers who report to GPA do not report all of there sales information. In fact, I know of more than one who do not report most sales information and you still accept their data. I speak with some dealers that use ComicLink on a daily basis who have told me that is the case (that includes items NOT sold on ComicLink). Of course, there is no way for you to make sure this does not happen. I just want to make you aware that what you are saying you do not want, is what you are currently getting in some cases.

 

I offered to give GPA some high-end ComicLink sales, not all sales, and if it is all-or-nothing I am not comfortable with handing over all of that valuable data to GPA or any other company. The offer I extended was based on thinking that GPA would prefer more data to less, especially in the high dollar department, as it is currently lacking all of ComicLink's high dollar sales. I thought it would benefit your customers to have more information in this department going forward, however little. Feel free to email me at buysell@comiclink.com if you change your mind.

 

Anyway, my point was that to say something is only worth an average GPA price is misleading because there are selling venues (convention sales, ComicLink, dealers like Bob Storms, etc.) that do not report to GPA at all. These are different markets containing many customers that do not use GPA, and different prices can be realized. My main point is that GPA is not the definitive pricing source that it is assumed to be by some buyers and sellers. I am certainly not saying it is not a useful guide - just that like any guide, it needs to be taken into context.

 

Josh Nathanson

www.comiclink.com

[BronzeBruce13]

If you think about it…

its important and necessary for overall "market health" for sellers to push for higher sales. Otherwise, all we would have is firm ceiling with "equal to" or "lower than" GPA sales which would translate into a steadily down spiraling trend until some owners of the books are not willing to sell at a depressed price with no real upside and others panic and take a loss before its a bigger loss. All of which would likely amount to a… crash?

 

 

Another point is… as some buyers speculate on which books will become more in demand and more valuable in the future for various reasons and are willing to buy based on just that… so too will owner's in reverse… testing their speculative value theories (via a higher price) on the market.

[COMICLINK]

If you think about it…

its important and necessary for overall "market health" for sellers to push for higher sales. Otherwise, all we would have is firm ceiling with "equal to" or "lower than" GPA sales which would translate into a steadily down spiraling trend until some owners of the books are not willing to sell at a depressed price with no real upside and others panic and take a loss before its a bigger loss. All of which would likely amount to a… crash?

 

Bruce,

 

You are exactly right on this point if the trend is for buyers to assume GPA to be THE source of pricing data and not ONE OF the sources. A perceived ceiling is a danger for high dollar books that don't sell frequently and threatens to hurt the market for a book if the venue that sells the book for a record low reports the sale to GPA (to the extent that prospective buyers use only GPA for figuring a relatively scarce book's value). For example, this happened with Journey Into Mystery #83 CGC 9.0 (a non-pedigree) when sold by Heritage for $11,500 (a record low). Prior to that, ComicLink had sold multiple non-pedigrees for between $16,000 and $18,000, the lower end price being a less desirable one having cream to off-white pages. The problem is that the consignor put it into the Heritage auction with no reserve, was at the mercy of whatever the underbidder wanted to pay, and a strong one did not show up for the auction. Whether or not the high bidder would have paid more (making the book potentially worth more to someone) then becomes irrelevant because the book only sold for $11,500. I doubt that any dealer or collector would have ever taken $11,500 for a 9.0 Journey #83 if sold outright - that is a good buy price for the book and I'm sure most dealers would still be willing to pay it and wait for a collector to buy it for a profit.

 

Now the Hulk #1 CGC 9.0 has sold for $17K lower than it sold for on ComicLink previously (and also lower than a CGC 8.5 sold on ComicLink). The recent sale was reported and accepted by GPA because I suppose Mastronet agreed to report all its data. To address those asking why I would provide data to GPA for some sales and not others, the reason is that even though I don't have interest in giving GPA a key to my database, the market could really use the help in select instances. If the Hulk #1 9.0 buyer relisted it on ComicLink and it sold for $50K again, it would benefit the buyer and the overall market for high-grade Hulk #1's, to have that sale reported on GPA too.

 

Josh Nathanson

www.comiclink.com

[BronzeBruce13]

Well, we are in agreement on some major points here and you make a solid argument for "partial data reporting" as it applies to the health and accuracy of a specific segment of the market. In this case, the very top end of the market.

 

We all want a healthy market but clearly GPA's position has to be indifferent in that regard. Its obligation to its subscribers and the hobby is to present its data in an honest manner whether the information indicates health or not in the marketplace.

 

Its easy to see where it can be complicated for GPA to determine the most effective and fair data reporting policies to ensure that the most complete and accurate representation of the market is being put forth… and not one potentially manipulated and compromised by selective reporting. Knowing George's character, I know he would never allow it to be any other way… so I personally trust his judgement in developing those policies. If that means all or nothing, I can see why he adheres to that position.

 

Its 3am in Australia, so George won't be able to join the discussion again for a little while I'm guessing.

Edited December 21, 2006 by BronzeBruce13

[codfish]

It's the old saying that the ultimate value of something is what you're willing to pay. In my case, I bought a CGC 5.0 pre-Sandman Adventure off Comiclink for $700. The OSPG lists 4.0 at $400 & 6.0 at $600. However, the copy I bought is the highest-graded unrestored copy & since early Adventures seem to keep rising in value, I really don't feel like I overpaid.

 

I've never used GPA & really don't have any interest in it. I know what I'm willing to pay for a book despite what the Guide or GPA says. As far as selling, I know what I want to get for a book. If no one is willing to pay that much, I simply keep it. It helps that I'm a collector & not a dealer. I love comics; I don't need to make money on them.

 

Well said.

[burntboy]

I've paid triple GPA for certain books I've wanted.

 

 

example!

 

 

 

Paid OVER $1500 for a JIM #89 in 8.5. Foolkiller picked it up for me from Harry last year at the Javitts when last GP was about $600+

Sorry. make that 2.5 times GPA.

 

OK, close enough to 3 times GPA.

 

R.

and you want one in 9.0 or better

 

 

good example.

 

I dont think anyone is talking about a J.I.M. 89 or a Hulk 1. they are talking about the common stuff.

Books that routinely sell for 50-60.00 on Ebay that are priced at 125.00.

 

The JIM 89 is a prime example of what someone is willing to pay for a specific book that is rare and thats where sites like comiclink,Pedigree, Highgrade and Metro come into play. No one complains about that. You know you are going to pay more for those books.

Now if that JIM 89 was on Ebay he may have paid less because as I recall the next highest bid was several hundred lower than Roys.

 

The next highest bid at the Javitz show? I barely outbid the underbidder on behalf of Roy.

 

i don't recall the numbers specifically, but there were at least 3 bids and each was pretty significantly over the GPA averages.

 

but, as has been mentioned, this book doesn't trade in HG very frequently so that doesn't mean all that much.

 

i believe that all the bids were within $400 of one another...........and i hate to even say it, but i'd be willing to bet that my JIM #89 could be improved to a 9.0 or higher, as was the case with many of my sales. a lot of the books had only minor dents or bends which is why they seemed even better than the given grades...........i expect to see many of them over the next few years showing up in higher grade.................

[burntboy]

Bob,

 

You clearly appear to me to be one of the most organized/informed dealers in regards to following the market closely and maintaining various databases. Thus, I doubt you need GPA often to help price a book. Others, that have less time to follow the market as closely, or don't posses enough personal data of their own obviously find (or "would" find) GPA very useful at determining a "starting point" before developing an ask price based on their own needs/ideas as well .

 

Unlike yourself, I would bet most Dealers fall into this category and even those that don't currently use the service would find some benefit doing so. Those that sell frequently and don't use GPA might not get "as much" as they could have in some instances simply by not being aware of market movement and trends. I speak as one that has been the recipient of such opportunities on occasion. I'm not commenting on the venue of the sale, but the price developed by the owner of the book.

 

I'm not going to claim the equation is equal, but surely there are a significant amount of examples as cited above as well as instances in which "over GPA" average/record sales are obtained.

 

Saying GPA is completely useless in some cases is perhaps overstated a bit. On thinly traded books, it can be far less useful than heavily traded ones, but not any less so than not having any data to consider. In those instances, a potential buyer (of a presumed expensive book) would be wise to do as much research as he can, and not only about past sales. Current demand, census info etc. would be among the other information I would seek.

 

Making a decision based only on GPA would be unwise in that case but does not make the service "useless" IMHO. After all, the lack of data "is" useful information. It lets the potential buyer know that the item is thinly traded and not many recorded sales exist. If anyone feels that is not usefull to someone that did not know otherwise and would have nothing but the seller's perspective as an alternative… I would disagree. It would tell me to do more homework and seek input from those I trust and respect before making a move.

 

 

 

well-stated.................

[The Troll King]

"Actually, that discussion is a sideshow too. This whole thread came about because one member seemed to think that sellers have an obligation to base their selling prices on GPA"

 

Thank you Tim, I thought I had communicated that more than a few times

 

Wow, a lot of activity in this thread that I started. Being sick and missing out stinks!

 

My original post in this thread was never intended to say that sellers have any obiligation to base their prices on GPA and quite honestly I don't think I ever implied that either. The reason why I posted to begin with was that I just thought it a little that a book like this ONE has an asking price almost 5 times the 12 month average on GPA, 10 times Overstreet, and even 5 times what Chucks wanting for the book raw. Now mind you, Vampirella's are not often slabbed because they are not really valuable enough to warrant doing so with the exception of certain issues of course.. I happen to be one of the people slabbing them. With that in mind, there are 7 of THESE in this grade of 9.6.

 

I'm not talking about books like Hulk 1 or whatever was mentioned here... those books SHOULD break records every sale if they are high grade. Everyone expects that and it has been the case for 30 years on books like that. I doubt many people have taken a loss on a 'tec 27 or Marvel #1

 

I guess I look at this the same way as if someone were trying to sell a Spawn #1 in a 9.6 for 5 times guide, or heck, even double guide, people would think they were crazy and would probably be turned off of looking for anything else from that seller WHICH brings me personally exactly where I am at right now. I know a lot of you buy/sell on Comiclink and I've heard great things about it which is why I checked it out, but I was quickly turned off by the exorbitant prices that I probably won't bother looking on there for much of anything now.

 

No one wants to turn off a buyer do they?

 

I guess the defending attitude is the same feeling that one gets if they walk into Neimans wearing a ratty t-shirt and jeans. The reaction that some of the sales clerks have is usually not a polite one.

 

On a side note, I will pay over guide for things, but within reason. Case in point, I bought a Fantastic Four #12 yesterday that isn't in the best of shape and has a coupon cut from the last page (non-story page) and I paid the full Overstreet price for a "Good" on it.

[COMICLINK]

Well, we are in agreement on some major points here and you make a solid argument for "partial data reporting" as it applies to the health and accuracy of a specific segment of the market. In this case, the very top end of the market.

 

We all want a healthy market but clearly GPA's position has to be indifferent in that regard. Its obligation to its subscribers and the hobby is to present its data in an honest manner whether the information indicates health or not in the marketplace.

 

Its easy to see where it can be complicated for GPA to determine the most effective and fair data reporting policies to ensure that the most complete and accurate representation of the market is being put forth… and not one potentially manipulated and compromised by selective reporting. Knowing George's character, I know he would never allow it to be any other way… so I personally trust his judgement in developing those policies. If that means all or nothing, I can see why he adheres to that position.

 

Its 3am in Australia, so George won't be able to join the discussion again for a little while I'm guessing.

 

I agree with all points here, except the notion that price manipulation would be caused by selective reporting. If select higher sales numbers are incorporated into GPA's database which for this discussion is assumed as having lower realized prices the items in question, reporting higher realized prices (assuming they are real sales) can only lead to more accurate GPA data. Of course it is also not the case that in every instance, sales would be significantly higher. The only sales that can cause manipulation (I am taking the word manipulation to mean inaccuracy) are trade sales, which would not be reported by ComicLink, and are not even marked as pending sales, on ComicLink for fear of misleading our client base. As a side note, there are other web sites reporting trade sales as actual sales, and that is definately misleading to the clients of those sites. If those trade sales are reported to GPA, that has a lot of potential for inaccurate representation of the market (for the most part, artificially inflating it). I am for accurate support of the market and not artificial support.

[COMICLINK]

"Actually, that discussion is a sideshow too. This whole thread came about because one member seemed to think that sellers have an obligation to base their selling prices on GPA"

 

Thank you Tim, I thought I had communicated that more than a few times

 

Wow, a lot of activity in this thread that I started. Being sick and missing out stinks!

 

My original post in this thread was never intended to say that sellers have any obiligation to base their prices on GPA and quite honestly I don't think I ever implied that either. The reason why I posted to begin with was that I just thought it a little that a book like this ONE has an asking price almost 5 times the 12 month average on GPA, 10 times Overstreet, and even 5 times what Chucks wanting for the book raw. Now mind you, Vampirella's are not often slabbed because they are not really valuable enough to warrant doing so with the exception of certain issues of course.. I happen to be one of the people slabbing them. With that in mind, there are 7 of THESE in this grade of 9.6.

 

I'm not talking about books like Hulk 1 or whatever was mentioned here... those books SHOULD break records every sale if they are high grade. Everyone expects that and it has been the case for 30 years on books like that. I doubt many people have taken a loss on a 'tec 27 or Marvel #1

 

I guess I look at this the same way as if someone were trying to sell a Spawn #1 in a 9.6 for 5 times guide, or heck, even double guide, people would think they were crazy and would probably be turned off of looking for anything else from that seller WHICH brings me personally exactly where I am at right now. I know a lot of you buy/sell on Comiclink and I've heard great things about it which is why I checked it out, but I was quickly turned off by the exorbitant prices that I probably won't bother looking on there for much of anything now.

 

No one wants to turn off a buyer do they?

 

I guess the defending attitude is the same feeling that one gets if they walk into Neimans wearing a ratty t-shirt and jeans. The reaction that some of the sales clerks have is usually not a polite one.

 

On a side note, I will pay over guide for things, but within reason. Case in point, I bought a Fantastic Four #12 yesterday that isn't in the best of shape and has a coupon cut from the last page (non-story page) and I paid the full Overstreet price for a "Good" on it.

 

There are 10,000 CGC Graded books on ComicLink. As in any marketplace, some items are overpriced and some are good deals. Some sellers could care less about turning off buyers (and some are prevented from selling for that reason). Others want to show only reasonable prices. As evidenced by our sales volume, enough items are priced competitively to lead to frequent sales. There is as much variation to pricing on ComicLink as there are sellers. It is up to you to be selective wherever you buy, ComicLink included. GPA may be the tool you use in order to be selective. If it is the only tool used, the information is limited. From your comments about the FF #12 and the Spawn #1 it appears you understand the difference between a rip off and a reasonably priced book and if so, you can feel as confident buying from ComicLink as anywhere else.

[gpanalysis]

Josh, we can continue going over this. You want to report some sales to us, we would rather you reported all sales. Other than the chart busters section on our home page, there is no identifier as to where the sale comes from. I can't force you to report to us, you can't force me to change my policy. Dealers are free to do what they want, buyers are free to do what they want.

 

I stand by my service and don't believe it misleads in any way. If that is your opinion, well, that is your opinion. You ultimately deal directly with your customers and you are best placed to put your argument forward for whatever position you hold for any and all issues.

[The Troll King]

 

There are 10,000 CGC Graded books on ComicLink. As in any marketplace, some items are overpriced and some are good deals. Some sellers could care less about turning off buyers (and some are prevented from selling for that reason). Others want to show only reasonable prices. As evidenced by our sales volume, enough items are priced competitively to lead to frequent sales. There is as much variation to pricing on ComicLink as there are sellers. It is up to you to be selective wherever you buy, ComicLink included. GPA may be the tool you use in order to be selective. If it is the only tool used, the information is limited. From your comments about the FF #12 and the Spawn #1 it appears you understand the difference between a rip off and a reasonably priced book and if so, you can feel as confident buying from ComicLink as anywhere else.

 

Well, giving you the benefit of the doubt I decided to check out Justice League books on your site. As several people on these boards know I'm always keeping for SA Justice Leagues and loe and behold I found one!

 

Justice League #3

 

But sure enough, here again the asking price is more than double GPA and Overstreet.

 

In fact, scrolling down the list of the graded ones. It appears that most of them are at least double. These are not high grade books either, but in that 6.5 range.

That's the type of thing I'm talking about.

 

Look, I understand pushing a threshold, I use to sell old Star Wars toys!

 

At the same time though, I think that a lot of us patient types when it comes to these books are going to wait out for a better price. This type of price gouging does more harm for the industry then good, IMO.

 

People that buy readily available books for that kind of multiple of guide are going to have a hard time re-couping that investment when it comes time for them to sell in a few years. They are going to want more than they paid, which anyone would, which in turn will turn off future collectors also.

[blazingbob]

Overstreet Price Guide FN is $234, FN+ the way I calculate it is $341. Which means the seller is using a 1.25X guide multiplier.

 

Factoring in Comiclinks comission of $34 + Guide you are looking at $375.

 

According to my sources GPA is $189 which is less than fine guide of $234.

 

The sellers price may be double GPA but it is not double what someone who follows the Overstreet price guide could price this book at.

[drice6900]

People that buy readily available books for that kind of multiple of guide are going to have a hard time re-couping that investment when it comes time for them to sell in a few years. They are going to want more than they paid, which anyone would, which in turn will turn off future collectors also.

 

Who is to say this isn't happening already?

[gpanalysis]

Overstreet Price Guide FN is $234, FN+ the way I calculate it is $341. Which means the seller is using a 1.25X guide multiplier.

 

Factoring in Comiclinks comission of $34 + Guide you are looking at $375.

 

According to my sources GPA is $189 which is less than fine guide of $234.

 

The sellers price may be double GPA but it is not double what someone who follows the Overstreet price guide could price this book at.

 

Your GPA sources should also be able to tell you that the 7.5 has had a fairly consistent price of between $350 and $420 - the $420 price (or $418.25 to be exact) was one sold only a month ago on Heritage and was a nice off-white pager. Looking at a couple of grades either way sometimes gives you a good overall idea of the CGC prices for a book.

[mar-vell]

there are some good deals on comiclink especially in their focused auctions. As listing prices on ebay go up i am seeing more reasonably priced items on the link! Many books are set at ridiculously high prices which the smart collector won't go for but sometimes if you wait out a book for several months while making low ball offers to the seller he will come back down to a more reasonable price point!

[The Troll King]

Overstreet Price Guide FN is $234, FN+ the way I calculate it is $341. Which means the seller is using a 1.25X guide multiplier.

 

Factoring in Comiclinks comission of $34 + Guide you are looking at $375.

 

According to my sources GPA is $189 which is less than fine guide of $234.

 

The sellers price may be double GPA but it is not double what someone who follows the Overstreet price guide could price this book at.

 

Your GPA sources should also be able to tell you that the 7.5 has had a fairly consistent price of between $350 and $420 - the $420 price (or $418.25 to be exact) was one sold only a month ago on Heritage and was a nice off-white pager. Looking at a couple of grades either way sometimes gives you a good overall idea of the CGC prices for a book.

 

My thoughts on this exactly. That's what I'm noticing on these books is that for the prices they're asking I can look around for one that may be a grade or 3 higher for the same price!

[paperheart]

i'm sure this has been said many times but i'm too lazy to scroll through 15 pages: if you don't like the price, make an offer and if it's not accepted move on.

[The Troll King]

there are some good deals on comiclink especially in their focused auctions. As listing prices on ebay go up i am seeing more reasonably priced items on the link! Many books are set at ridiculously high prices which the smart collector won't go for but sometimes if you wait out a book for several months while making low ball offers to the seller he will come back down to a more reasonable price point!

 

Well, I believe there are far too many venues available to have to try and "low ball" someone repeatedly until they finally give in.

 

I personally wouldn't want someone doing that to me!