Do people listing on Comiclink even care about GPA? 0

[AussieRuss]

Well, let's see. I have a large number of dealers that I do a lot of business with that are very willing to give me a price to sell a book at.

 

Just because I may not have sold a book before doesn't mean that I cannot make a phone call or partner with the dealer to buy and sell the book.

 

Hello Bob.

 

I have a question regarding dealers who sell books at record prices but do not submit data to GPA. Please don't take this personally as I don't know you and do not have any issues with you however you seem like a qualified person to answer this question.

 

My question is;

 

If a dealer like yourself often sells at record prices, why not submit to GPA because someone like myself with limited knowledge on what a given book is worth can only use GPA as a baseline to work with.

 

If books that obtain prices above GPA average were listed then I would adjust my average price payable upward or downward acordingly

 

I maybe wrong but by not submitting data you may be in fact turning people like myself away without a chance to even explain the reasons that you charge above or below GPA.

 

Its great that you have built up years of historical information to use however what happens to the majority of average buyers who do not have this information GPA is one of the few places to track any form of data with ease.

 

Maybe you prefer to deal with the more savvy buyer, oly time & experience will give me the grace to become one of these.

 

I hope you could respond as it would be nice to understand some reasoning from a dealers perspective.

 

Kind regards,

 

Russell Lawson.

Russ...

[esquirecomics]

Yes, I agree it's irrelevant, so why respond at all then? If you don't feel the need to defend, then don't.

 

Brian, I made one generic comment in response. It was not defensive. It was a statement, plain and simple. Indeed, it was posed with a question for Bob to explain what he was talking about, which of course he didn't.

 

In fact, he chose to respond to the question I directed at Josh rather than those directed specifically at him.

 

You are the only one continuing the discussion on this aspect of Bob's comment.

 

Since we agree it is irrelevant, we can move back to discussing why Bob was so hostile to GPA and providing it sales data especially in light of the fact he uses it to promote his books.

[tth2]

If a dealer like yourself often sells at record prices, why not submit to GPA because someone like myself with limited knowledge on what a given book is worth can only use GPA as a baseline to work with.

Russ, I think Bob already answered this question. At some point, he has to buy the books that he later sells. If the GPA for those books rises because of higher sales prices reported by him, CL and others, then his purchase price rises. In this hobby and as in many others, information is power, and profit opportunities arise from exploiting discrepancies in information between buyers and sellers.

 

If books that obtain prices above GPA average were listed then I would adjust my average price payable upward or downward acordingly

 

I maybe wrong but by not submitting data you may be in fact turning people like myself away without a chance to even explain the reasons that you charge above or below GPA.

When I read something like this, I have to scratch my head. Is what the rest of the herd is willing to pay the only determining factor in what you will pay? This is exactly the mentality that Bob is criticizing.

 

What about your own personal opinion of what the book is worth, based on observation and experience? What prices have you seen the book going for, and just as importantly, who's paying those prices and who were the underbidders? What about how much you really want the book, and whether you think you'll get a shot at a similar book later? What about who else is offering the book and what they're asking for it? It seems like people are abdicating any responsibility in assessing the price of a book, or simply getting lazy, and using the GPA average as the end-all and be-all in their pricing determination. People are no longer willing to take the time to build up their experience and then do their own homework based upon that experience.

 

There also seems to be this overwhelming fear of being taken for a ride. Based upon my observations of board discussions over the years, I think if we were to ever post a list of what board members consider to be a cardinal sin in collecting, paying above GPA would get ranked pretty high.

[tth2]

Since we agree it is irrelevant, we can move back to discussing why Bob was so hostile to GPA and providing it sales data especially in light of the fact he uses it to promote his books.

Actually, that discussion is a sideshow too. This whole thread came about because one member seemed to think that sellers have an obligation to base their selling prices on GPA.

[AussieRuss]

When I read something like this, I have to scratch my head. Is what the rest of the herd is willing to pay the only determining factor in what you will pay? This is exactly the mentality that Bob is criticizing.

 

Hello Tim.

 

Thanks for your input.

 

With regard to your quote above, I will respond the best & most honest way that I can.

 

Basically yes, I do use what the rest of the heard is willing to pay as a guide. As I mentioned before I don't have years of knowledge behind me. Only time and exposure will give me that.

 

I would say that many, if not virtually all collectors would want to use some form of data to base their buying habits from during their junior years.

 

If I did not form a judgment from some form of data, what else can I form my baseline from.

 

I have purchased several books well above GPA Average. Just look at the prices paid for nearly all of the Pedigree'd Iron Man & Subby #1 books. I felt that they were worth every cent of what I paid.

 

I have also paid well below GPA average for many Pedigree'd books, mainly due to luck but sometimes due to page color or squareness.

 

I am not having a shot at Bob or anyone else with his mindset. I am learning like most of us on the forums & seek his input as part of this learning period.

 

The part that I do not understand is this.

 

If you go and buy a car do you a pay what the dealer wants without checking a list price or GPA type internet site to get a good deal. I know that I have spent days looking for a car trying to see who offers the best package (not $$$ alone but best package as a whole)

 

From you post, (and I hope Bob & others also give their views) I am reading into this that the problem for the dealer is that margins are being cut because the collector is only wanting to pay GPAverage for a book that may be in better than GPAverage condition. I also understand that he doesn't want to pay GPA average prices for his purchases (he does need to sell for a profit after all)

 

Maybe this is the way of the future, just like whitegoods the buyer wants more & wants to pay less. I can't see this changing so it maybe a case of adapt with a changing market or just stay pissed with people like myself until we grow up to become seasoned collectors like some of you old timers.

 

Thanks again for the response Tim.

 

Regards,

Russ...

[jkrk]

Regarding BB's position on not reporting prices to GPA: He's correct in his approach.

 

1)As was said before, He has no incentive upside to report his sales data. to anyone. If he sees trends developing it's his proprietary info and he needs not share that with the general population. If anyone wants the data then subscribe to Bob's pricing service.

 

2)In my business, I make money generating ideas for myself. Many times I'm solicited for ideas and I will only give very general info keeping any specific trading thoughts for myself. The last thing I need is additional competition.

 

3)regarding comic trends- I'm more tham willing to share thoughts. It's a hobby for me rather than a business. I will caution that you should expect to get what you pay for. I will supply my comic thoughts free of charge. That's probably what it's worth.

[AussieRuss]

Regarding BB's position on not reporting prices to GPA: He's correct in his approach.

 

1)As was said before, He has no incentive upside to report his sales data. to anyone. If he sees trends developing it's his proprietary info and he needs not share that with the general population. If anyone wants the data then subscribe to Bob's pricing service.

 

2)In my business, I make money generating ideas for myself. Many times I'm solicited for ideas and I will only give very general info keeping any specific trading thoughts for myself. The last thing I need is additional competition.

 

3)regarding comic trends- I'm more tham willing to share thoughts. It's a hobby for me rather than a business. I will caution that you should expect to get what you pay for. I will supply my comic thoughts free of charge. That's probably what it's worth.

 

Yes. I would agree with all of what you say. Some or all of the dealers quality of life is dependant on an income stream which is dependant on the above.

 

On the dealers side of the fence High GPA sales figures also bump up future purchase figures.

 

On my side of the fence Low GPA sales figures reduce the amount I will generally spend on a book .

 

Its double edged sword isn't it.

 

Russ...

[tth2]

If you go and buy a car do you a pay what the dealer wants without checking a list price or GPA type internet site to get a good deal. I know that I have spent days looking for a car trying to see who offers the best package (not $$$ alone but best package as a whole)

 

From you post, (and I hope Bob & others also give their views) I am reading into this that the problem for the dealer is that margins are being cut because the collector is only wanting to pay GPAverage for a book that may be in better than GPAverage condition. I also understand that he doesn't want to pay GPA average prices for his purchases (he does need to sell for a profit after all)

 

Maybe this is the way of the future, just like whitegoods the buyer wants more & wants to pay less. I can't see this changing so it maybe a case of adapt with a changing market or just stay pissed with people like myself until we grow up to become seasoned collectors like some of you old timers.

 

Thanks again for the response Tim.

Russ, I think you're selling yourself far too short and you are a much more savvy and experienced market observer than you're letting on in your post above. In my post to you, I indicated some of the criteria that collectors should use in evaluating a purchase, and you've clearly used some of those criteria yourself in making some of your purchases.

 

Just to be clear, I am not criticizing the use of GPA. It is a good tool and should be used. I'm just saying it shouldn't be the only determining factor, and that collectors should never create some sort of hard and fast rule that they will never pay more than GPA or never pay more than X% above GPA. They should also never criticize a seller's asking price just because the book is above (or far above) GPA. One can criticize a seller's asking price for being too high, but please don't list "the book is above GPA" as one's only supporting reason, as if that's the only reason that needs to be provided.

[gpanalysis]

Just to be clear, I am not criticizing the use of GPA. It is a good tool and should be used. I'm just saying it shouldn't be the only determining factor, and that collectors should never create some sort of hard and fast rule that they will never pay more than GPA or never pay more than X% above GPA. They should also never criticize a seller's asking price just because the book is above (or far above) GPA. One can criticize a seller's asking price for being too high, but please don't list "the book is above GPA" as one's only supporting reason, as if that's the only reason that needs to be provided.

 

I would agree with you 100%

[BronzeBruce13]

I believe we are in agreement oh flaming one.

 

I indicated a few times in my post that I feel GPA is likely not a "must have" for someone as savvy as yourself who is in the thick of the market, maintains a detailed database of sales, and also boasts instincts sharpened by over a decade of experience. Also, (correct me if I'm wrong here), but another factor for you in particular is unlike some other dealers, you may not depend on your comic income as much since you have a successful full-time position in another field. If correct, this gives you the opportunity to hold out longer for the price you want.

 

Anyway, I was making the point that you sir are not a "common breed" in the hobby and that the majority of sellers not possessing the data, savvy and experience you have would find GPA useful/helpful... certainly enough to validate its cost.

 

I think what's going on with you is that you are simply a little "burned out" with all the negotiating you've been through over the years... and I can relate having felt the same way on occasion with far less time in. The reality is that GPA has armed buyers (in particular) with a new stick to attempt to beat the dealers prices down with. No doubt there are a percentage that want you to accept the data as a "ceiling" for their own benefit.

 

The way I see it is the arguments "for and against" a particular price have just changed. Like you, and anyone that sells as a dealer or privately, I encounter the same GPA price arguments against my ask prices. It can be tiresome, but like most anything there are counter points. On items that are heavily traded, I'm likely to negotiate closer to either a "GPA higher end sale" or "GPA 6/12 Month Avg" depending on if the copy I have is a arguably a "top example" worthy of the higher range (or more) or if its not. For less available/traded items, I'm more likely to hold my ground and point out possibilities why the GPA data may not/does not reflect "current/near future" demand and/or value for the particular item.

 

Sales/Market Factors such as…

fraud percentages of the venue, reputation of the venue, an Ebay seller's low/questionable feedback, strategically poor auction-end time (day and time), limited payment options (paypal?), poor scan quality, lacking marketing ability are some of the many variables you can use to explain some previous lower sale prices and why you feel your price is justifiable.

 

If you know your segment of the market very well and can politely cite specific example(s) that support your case, it can quickly deflate an argument based only on recent GPA data that does not reflect the information you can present as a counter.

 

Appeal Factors such as: Page Quality, QP can be used to support your argument when you have a nicer book… and conversely against you, when you don't.

 

Since I watch my segment of the market closely (like you, yours) I usually am armed with enough valid and specific information to credibly debate my ask price vs. a GPA price supported argument. If you don't have the time to obtain information that will allow you to counter, then you just have to learn to smile more and say "I just can't do it".

 

 

Let's use my Personal FF Collection as an example.

 

If I had used GPAnalysis as an assistant to my pricing these books I would have left THOUSANDS on the table.

 

I went with my gut, my sales experience, my intimate knowledge of the FF market and the time and effort it took to find these issues. Than I priced my books. And with the exception of a very few I did very very well. I didn't need GPA to help me sell my books. Almost all are gone, I don't look back and go I sold that too cheap. Some people made some money and a lot of nice FF's are now in the marketplace.

 

Maybe useless is too strong a word. Maybe not always applicable would be better. Yes it gives the buyer "information" and I'm all about the buyer having information. However, I am not going to sit back and be silent when a buyer quotes GPA numbers and thinks he is the only one WHO KNOWS what a book should sell for. Same goes with people who quote the overstreet price guide.

[BronzeBruce13]

Just for you Bob, a few to write down for your next show…

 

1: potential buyer:

"you want $500?, that's too much!… GPA shows the last 2 sales at $350 and $397"

 

1: reply: (real info, not BS... gotta put in the time)

"yeah, I saw those sales. The first copy had Cream to OW pages though and the seller only had 31 feedbacks, didn't accept paypal and was shipping from Iraq… the other was from a reputable US seller, but the scan was small perhaps trying to underemphasize what appeared to be a noticeable angle miswrap.

 

1: potential buyer:

"..................?!......uh..., h mmmm, you gotta point... h mmm... $495?"

 

 

2: potential buyer:

"you want $500?, that's too much!… GPA shows the last 2 sales at $350 and $397. I saw those sales and both books were white pagers and nicely centered."

 

2: reply:

"yeah, I saw those sales too. Nice books... I see you didn't bid though. How do you know what the winner's high bid was? Maybe it was $525. If you did bid, the book would have went higher… right? What if there were 2-3 of you out there, very interested but didn't/couldn't bid for one reason or another? If the seller ended the auction so all 3 time zones could bid perhaps 1 or 2 other interested parties could have pushed that baby up to $600... Just curious, why didn't you bid since you're in the market for the book?"

 

2: potential buyer:

"........... $495? dammit!"

[drice6900]

Just for you Bob, a few to write for your next show…

 

1: potential buyer:

"you want $500?, that's too much!… GPA shows the last 2 sales at $350 and $397"

 

1: reply: (real info, not BS... gotta put in the time)

"yeah, I saw those sales. The first copy had Cream to OW pages though and the seller only had 31 feedbacks, didn't accept paypal and was shipping from Iraq… the other was from a reputable US seller, but the scan was small perhaps trying to underemphasize what appeared to be a noticeable angle miswrap.

 

1: potential buyer:

"..................?!......uh..., h mmmm, you gotta point... h mmm... $495?"

 

 

2: potential buyer:

"you want $500?, that's too much!… GPA shows the last 2 sales at $350 and $397. I saw those sales and both books were white pagers and nicely centered."

 

2: reply:

"yeah, I saw those sales too. Nice books... I see you didn't bid though. How do you know what the winner's high bid was? Maybe it was $525. If you did bid, the book would have went higher… right? What if there were 2-3 of you out there, very interested but didn't/couldn't bid for one reason or another? If the seller ended the auction so all 3 time zones could bid perhaps 1 or 2 other interested parties could have pushed that baby up to $600... Just curious, why didn't you bid since you're in the market for the book?"

 

2: potential buyer:

"........... $495? dammit!"

 

[Foolkiller]

Yes, I agree it's irrelevant, so why respond at all then? If you don't feel the need to defend, then don't.

 

Brian, I made one generic comment in response. It was not defensive. It was a statement, plain and simple. Indeed, it was posed with a question for Bob to explain what he was talking about, which of course he didn't.

 

In fact, he chose to respond to the question I directed at Josh rather than those directed specifically at him.

 

You are the only one continuing the discussion on this aspect of Bob's comment.

 

Since we agree it is irrelevant, we can move back to discussing why Bob was so hostile to GPA and providing it sales data especially in light of the fact he uses it to promote his books.

 

Oh please. Of course it was defensive. It was not just a "simple statement". It would have made more sense to make your point about GPA and not bother with responding to anything Bob said that you now deem "irrelevant". I am continuing the discussion because you are characterizing Bob's comments as "misdirection" when you are a master of misdirection (I mean, we are lawyers so I guess we all do it at some point), and I'm just asking you to be fair. I'm also continuing it because you enjoy pointing out the problems with other people's arguments, and all I want you to do is recognize what your comments really are, and not allow you to just make indignant responses when they are really an accurate characterization (to some extent -- I'm sure you have had both successes and failures in comics).

 

Look, it's double talk from you. You're saying it's irrelevant, and that I'm belaboring the point, but look how much time you've spent responding to me, and I'm the one agreeing with you it's irrelevant. People shouldn't comment on about your statements regarding things, but you should make comments about things you think are "irrelevant" and "you don't need to defend yourself about". That doesn't make sense. It's inconsisent.

 

Bob has addressed your points many times. And I think his point concerning GPA has been made many, many times. I don't think it's "venom towards GPA" as you grossy mischaracterize it, but rather, it's a disagreement from customers saying, GPA is gospel.

 

Why should Bob (or Koop, or Metropolis, or Gary Platt or Harley Yee or anyone else) feel that they "have" to provide data to GPA? They don't. If they want to consider it as a source, but use their own sales data first, who really cares? You as the buyer can always debate with them the price, and Bob has said he will consider GPA data as a source. I'm not sure how that's venom towards GPA.

[Foolkiller]

And as a follow up Mark, I will let this go now. You can have the last word -- (except on any GPA points)... I think my point is clear and there's no sense in beating a dead horse.

[whomerjay]

"Sales/Market Factors such as…

fraud percentages of the venue, reputation of the venue, an Ebay seller's low/questionable feedback, strategically poor auction-end time (day and time), limited payment options (paypal?), poor scan quality, lacking marketing ability are some of the many variables you can use to explain some previous lower sale prices and why you feel your price is justifiable.

 

If you know your segment of the market very well and can politely cite specific example(s) that support your case, it can quickly deflate an argument based only on recent GPA data that does not reflect the information you can present as a counter.

 

Appeal Factors such as: Page Quality, QP can be used to support your argument when you have a nicer book… and conversely against you, when you don't."

 

These are all good points but they apply largely to books not traded often. As you note, because ebay sales with their inherent problems dominate the GPA database, books values based on GPA averages are slightly depressed. Thus, on average a book in hand has to be valued more than one listed on ebay. How depressed is a function of how common the book is. For ASM 300 in 9.4 or better, maybe 10%. For most GA books selling for > $500, a little more. For books traded once every 2-3 years, GPA is of some help but it would be foolish to rely on it.

 

Given the opportunity to buy a slabbed (or raw) book I want from a reputable dealer (who doesn't play crack and reslab), I am always willling to pay more. In person at a show even more. The security factor is worth it. Good dealers know this and they know enough of my kind are out there to enable them to price their high demand, hard to replace inventory appropriately.

[Red Hook]

Let's all be clear on this.

 

I don't subscribe or use them regularly.

 

I'll listen when a collector quotes GPA but remind them that I also have sales data to pull prices from.

 

I did not use GPA to price my FF collection and no many of them were not the Highest graded copies. I priced them based on the fact that there wasn't a large collection of FF's offered to the market in a long time.

 

I don't need GPA to gauge market trends. Besides it's historical in nature and could be out of date since the last reported sale. Did I need GPA to figure out AS #300's were hot? Or what I could price them for? No I did not.

 

You can get a sense of the market when "Everybody" and I mean "everybody" starts asking for a book. Or want lists in your system start showing up with the same books.

 

My database sales go back over 14 years. I've been around this business since 1973. Before GPA there was an Overstreet Price guide.

 

I've already stated that "Useless" was too strong a word, it's another "source" of pricing information if you want to use it. And I have many sources to pull pricing information from.

 

That's a fair position to take Bob. As I said, GPA is a good tool (probably more useful to us buyers than a dealer), but I would never expect an experienced dealer to march in stride with the data on GPA. I personally find it a big help just getting info pretty easily. If I do my homework, I would check other sources too.

[namisgr]

Bob gets consignment business by using his own database and experience-based sense of the marketplace.

 

Case in point from several years ago. I wanted to buy an HDTV and so decided to sell a slabbed TOS 39 with white pages. First, I offered it on the boards for $Y, and a serious collector (at the time) of high grade early Marvels expressed an interest. However, he was only willing to pay 90% of Y since, after all, that was roughly the highest GPA price. I felt that with the exceptional eye appeal and page quality, the book could command more, and we never struck a deal. Bob offered to sell the book on consignment after giving the opinion that it could command much more than Y. He was right, and sold the book for 130% of Y. Even with his consignment fee, I netted a thousand dollars more than I would have by selling it to the serious collector from the boards who was rooted to a GPA-based value system.

 

I understand where Bob comes from when he states his unwillingness to provide "proprietary" information to the dealer community at large by making his data available through GPA.

[blazingbob]

"Actually, that discussion is a sideshow too. This whole thread came about because one member seemed to think that sellers have an obligation to base their selling prices on GPA"

 

Thank you Tim, I thought I had communicated that more than a few times

[blazingbob]

"Russ, I think Bob already answered this question. At some point, he has to buy the books that he later sells. If the GPA for those books rises because of higher sales prices reported by him, CL and others, then his purchase price rises. In this hobby and as in many others, information is power, and profit opportunities arise from exploiting discrepancies in information between buyers and sellers"

 

Again, very astute observation and absolutely true. This is not only true about sales being reported to GPA, the same goes for sales being reported to the Overstreet Price Guide.

[Red Hook]

My impression was that he was talking more about the individual sellers on CL, and not dealers or the prices they list on their own sites....

 

I also still adhere to the position that any seller has the right to ask any price he wants.

 

End of story.