LearnedHand Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Agree that the books Bangzoom (BZ) has been displaying are impressive and that this is the best thread I’ve encountered in a long while (positive and dazzling!). And yes, I would like to own some of them. But pedigree status? In my opinion, not at this point. As one of Jon Berk’s arguments in his article indicates (with which I agree), a pedigree is not just a bunch of high-grade OO books (and one doesn’t lobby to have a collection receive pedigree status). These factors are simply indicators of an impressive collection. And, these factors can propel a collection to pedigree status. Mark Wilson said it well when he offered the Rockford collection. After consulting with Overstreet, Geppi, and others about what consistutes pedigree status, he concluded that it is a function of market acceptance – meaning the collection is regarded by the hobby as something special and, due to this, people are willing to pay more for these books (irrespective of grade) than they would for the same books in the same grades from nondescript sources. And “willing to pay more” relates to what people are willing to pay in secondary market sales. If the collection is revered as special, resale prices will reflect this. Unfortunately, two factors help cloud the issue: First, dealers offering new collections to the market at over-Guide initial asking prices and dubbing them to be (named) pedigrees. Sorry, this is simply creative marketing. Second, CGC dictating what collections deserve pedigree status. Again, this is the tail attempting to wag the dog. Call a cache of books a “collection” or “pedigree,” call it “Fred.” Affix a label with a collection name to the slab (“From the Collection of Nicholas Cage,” etc.). All are irrelevant to anybody with common sense or that’s been in the hobby longer than CGC. Isn’t this why so many so-called pedigrees or named collections routinely sell for no more than their same-grade nondescript counterparts? Clearly, the market knows what collections are special, irrespective of dealer marketing or grading company opinions. In the case of the BZ books, from what I’ve seen, many of the books seem very nice. But do we know there really are 1,000 books? That it’s OO? That they are unrestored? That more books grade like the Adventure #40 than the Peps? Looking at the collection in the most favorable light, let’s assume what seems to be the case – that it is an OO collection, all are unrestored, there are more than a handful of key/important books, and the vast majority are in better-than-VF. Even assuming all this, none have been offered for sale and, more importantly, there are no secondary market sales from which to gauge market acceptance. Frankly, call it whatever you’d like, it has not achieved pedigree status. In fact, no collection ever obtained pedigree status while sitting in its respective OO’s home (or thereabouts). As such, the BZ collection might be worthy of pedigree status, but at this point, it’s no more than a pedigree-to-be, or a pedigree in hibernation. In any event, I’m entranced by this thread and will now sit back and continue to enjoy the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr.schomburg Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 There is good possibility all of our pandering and whinning, and show or don't show has run off this guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BangZoom Posted March 20, 2007 Author Share Posted March 20, 2007 Agree that the books Bangzoom (BZ) has been displaying are impressive and that this is the best thread I’ve encountered in a long while (positive and dazzling!). And yes, I would like to own some of them. But pedigree status? In my opinion, not at this point. As one of Jon Berk’s arguments in his article indicates (with which I agree), a pedigree is not just a bunch of high-grade OO books (and one doesn’t lobby to have a collection receive pedigree status). These factors are simply indicators of an impressive collection. And, these factors can propel a collection to pedigree status. Mark Wilson said it well when he offered the Rockford collection. After consulting with Overstreet, Geppi, and others about what consistutes pedigree status, he concluded that it is a function of market acceptance – meaning the collection is regarded by the hobby as something special and, due to this, people are willing to pay more for these books (irrespective of grade) than they would for the same books in the same grades from nondescript sources. And “willing to pay more” relates to what people are willing to pay in secondary market sales. If the collection is revered as special, resale prices will reflect this. Unfortunately, two factors help cloud the issue: First, dealers offering new collections to the market at over-Guide initial asking prices and dubbing them to be (named) pedigrees. Sorry, this is simply creative marketing. Second, CGC dictating what collections deserve pedigree status. Again, this is the tail attempting to wag the dog. Call a cache of books a “collection” or “pedigree,” call it “Fred.” Affix a label with a collection name to the slab (“From the Collection of Nicholas Cage,” etc.). All are irrelevant to anybody with common sense or that’s been in the hobby longer than CGC. Isn’t this why so many so-called pedigrees or named collections routinely sell for no more than their same-grade nondescript counterparts? Clearly, the market knows what collections are special, irrespective of dealer marketing or grading company opinions. In the case of the BZ books, from what I’ve seen, many of the books seem very nice. But do we know there really are 1,000 books? That it’s OO? That they are unrestored? That more books grade like the Adventure #40 than the Peps? Looking at the collection in the most favorable light, let’s assume what seems to be the case – that it is an OO collection, all are unrestored, there are more than a handful of key/important books, and the vast majority are in better-than-VF. Even assuming all this, none have been offered for sale and, more importantly, there are no secondary market sales from which to gauge market acceptance. Frankly, call it whatever you’d like, it has not achieved pedigree status. In fact, no collection ever obtained pedigree status while sitting in its respective OO’s home (or thereabouts). As such, the BZ collection might be worthy of pedigree status, but at this point, it’s no more than a pedigree-to-be, or a pedigree in hibernation. In any event, I’m entranced by this thread and will now sit back and continue to enjoy the show. Just for the record, I agree with much of the above. I wish that kind of talk had never started. It seems that when collectors mention pedigree today, it's a quick jump to talking about money. In theory, I like the idea of comic pedigrees, unfortunately in practice it becomes a little less fun for me. Probably 95% of my collection was purchased from original owners. The 'pedigrees' in my collection are not known by fandom, they're only known by me. When I look at most of my comics, I can spot the Kolmorgan, Foote, Starr, Clarke, and Gilchrist issues immediately. It makes the collecting a little more special. Having said all of that, I do understand why there is so much ruckus about prices and potential appreciation. Collectors today spend so much money on their hobby, they'd be foolish not to give some thought to possible downsides in their investments. Almost all my buys were 30-40 years ago. I think the most I ever paid for a single issue was $55 for Superman #1. It was purchased from a dealer who advertised it in the old fanzine, The Rocket's Blast. The market must have been slow back then because he gave me (13 years at the time) 30 days to raise the money. Things have sure changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forbush-Man Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Hi Bangzoom, Thanks for starting this incredible thread! I hope you will post more scans for those of us who care less about their value and more about just admiring beautiful books. You've got one heck of a nice collection! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Hand ® Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 This guy's a real collector, from the old school. Watch, listen and learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forbush-Man Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 This guy's a real collector, from the old school. Watch, listen and learn. I'm watching......listining......and eating a lot of popcorn while I wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr.schomburg Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Bang, I have really enjoyed your posts, thank you for sharing your thoughts, collection, and history. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esquirecomics Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Yes Bang please keep posting them ( without cropping the tops if possible) I would recommend that you try to get CGC to give the books a pedigree and have a small quantity of the graded so you can see what they come up with. Also try to get them in the book on pedigrees as soon as possible. All of this should help the eventual sales value of the books for whenever you or you heirs do sell. I am sure your intentions are pure...but this is over the line. CGC decides nothing about pedigrees, the hobby does. People just sit back and enjoy what he is willing to share....jon Amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piper Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Yes Bang please keep posting them ( without cropping the tops if possible) I would recommend that you try to get CGC to give the books a pedigree and have a small quantity of the graded so you can see what they come up with. Also try to get them in the book on pedigrees as soon as possible. All of this should help the eventual sales value of the books for whenever you or you heirs do sell. I am sure your intentions are pure...but this is over the line. CGC decides nothing about pedigrees, the hobby does. People just sit back and enjoy what he is willing to share....jon Amen. Can we see some Tecs or Timely's? Pretty please... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paratrooper Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 ugh, read my previous thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 I think the most I ever paid for a single issue was $55 for Superman #1. that would buy you a nice Omac #1 these days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr.schomburg Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 I'll sell you a NM copy for 5 bucks, I got like 20 or so! PM me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 no way, you keep 'em!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FFB Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Hey Bangzoom, if I can get everyone to stop bringing up the pedigree issue and stop bugging you to sell books, would you start posting more scans? Actually, that's a rhetorical question because there's no way I can accomplish that. But I would definitely like to see more of your collection and get this thread back on track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 agreed, time to get this train wreck back on the tracks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BangZoom Posted March 20, 2007 Author Share Posted March 20, 2007 But I would definitely like to see more of your collection and get this thread back on track. I was moving some stuff around and stopped to take this photo just for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BangZoom Posted March 20, 2007 Author Share Posted March 20, 2007 Actually, I meant this photo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FFB Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whetteon Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 HUrray!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Knight Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Actually, I meant this photo! I am speechless! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
