7 hours ago, JadeGiant said:

Sale? Link?

Comiclink summer sale link

17 hours ago, Junkdrawer said:

No glass on this painting. I went way outside the box on this frame I think

Did you find an old frame that fit? Or is it a new frame ?  Personally I have avoided gold frames for a while - but it seems to suit this piece well.

41 minutes ago, Blastaar said:

Here is an odd one. Full spalsh, non hero,pg 1, ehhh art and only going for $100 on the bay. What's funny is I'm actually drawn to it, don't know why. So A,B,C,D......or E?

Power of Shazam #33 Pete Krause

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

E is for Elvira - and this guy is no sexy thing - but if you like it- who are we to judge. Question - do you like it because it's from the title Shazam that you enjoy? Or is it is something else and if so what is it? 

43 minutes ago, Oddball said:

 

You never said mediocre.  You said art we love that won’t win popularity contests.

You are right. This thread is not about mediocre ary - but there was a comment made that I was replying to.  If you double check my original comment  was replying to Rick2you2 who had said he had bought mediocre art. I was asking HIM to post the example of which he spoke. The comment peaked my curiosity.   SOONERS161 replied instead - which is the fun of these threads.  So it's all good! Ha ha.

44 minutes ago, Sooners151 said:

Hey, a topic where I actually have examples of art discussed...E level!  :-)

I think this fits the bill.  It has Spider-man, Jessica Jones, Galactus, Daredevil, and the Avengers.  But it's also done by Rob Guillory, who I love, but is an indie creator-owned artist with a very exaggerated cartoon style.  Plus all the characters are in really goofy situations (geriatric Avengers passed out Daredevil).  No one would view this as high comic art

The request was for an example of mediocre art.  This is not that. Ha ha.its cartoony for sure - but not mediocre.

3 hours ago, wurstisart said:

Good Morning,

I recently updated my CAF with the following 2 pieces :

Vampirella Cover 2 - Mike Mayhew

http://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=1491742

Spirit Illustration - Will Eisner

http://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=1492219

If anyone knows where this Spirit Illustration and my other Will Eisner Spirit San Diego Comic Con piece was used would be awesome.

Hope you like it.

So I am a fan of the Mayhew Vampi covers - but admit that I hadn't read them.  My question is 'does vampi do karate/kung fu inside the comic? The way its shown on this cover.

56 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

If only that were true. Since I focus on the character, I sometime buy mediocre art because I want a piece which is representative of the artist or something else. 

 

Can you post an example?

10 hours ago, malvin said:

heh heh, it will be awhile (long story) but I might post an E-level Tony Moore walking dead art (published) for sale soon.

Let's hope this thread is still around then!

Malvin

Such a tease!

18 minutes ago, jaykza said:

Agree with this. However, I find the letters ABC to be a bit imprecise as their may be a range within each level/letter. Just did a runthrough on some of the pieces from the last auction with a 3 category ranking (1-10). Obviously this is subjective but I tried to tie values to at least what the market looks to be rating each category. For a piece such as the KJ page, looks to me like whatever the buyer ranks the quality of the page would determine price it went at and this buyer rated it at least on the higher end of B (4-7). Anyway, it was a fun exercise for me to get an idea of why things might be priced a certain way and probably would help me to allocate my future spending.

Full disclosure: guessed a bunch on many silver age pieces because I don't really have a clue why certain arcs or runs may be important. 

Cool idea.  Maybe this can be combined with the Andy Robbins method to come up with a definitive measurement standard.

With all the discussion of A and B art - it's clear not all art is created equal.  If Jack Kirby drew this- it may have been B or C level, but without a doubt - this is a piece of art that brings a smile to my face and I am glad to have been able to add to my collection.  E is for Elvira.

If you got art that you love but is not about to win any popularity contests - feel free to post here.

You can see my art and read my comments HERE. 

1 hour ago, NinjaSealed said:

One thing that hasn't really been brought up, and something that actually makes KJ a poor example for comparing values, is the length of this book. 46 pages plus the cover. A lot of prelims if you are interested but don't quench the desire for most. Thats it. There are few as desirable works whose supply is so limited. You don't get to really choose your KJ example, (unless you are willing to make a LARGE offer privately.) No one wants to sell them.

You make a bunch of great points - but at the end of the day whoever paid that for this page - now has that page instead of something else.

Not sure if its a good analogy - but I am sure many of us have had the following shared experience. You go to a fancy restaurant. You order an expensive meal. You are served a tiny piece of meat with some greens stacked in the centre of an otherwise empty plate.  It's plated beautifully.  You finish eating. You pay the high bill. You are still hungry. It just wasnt satisfying.  At a low price  I can understand wanting a taste of something - but at the cost many times the multiple of other great options - I have a hard time justifying.

If someone wanted to argue that this placeholder will be used to trade up later - I would understand better. But not by much.

55 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

B pages from this book are more desirable than most As out there of anything else.  Not that I think $120K for that page makes sense.  

No intention to start a fight with fans of this page - as it's purely  personal opinion/taste . This is my take on the KJ page.

I think when you say desirable- but not worth the 120k - that is to say - for most collectors - even if the funds were available - the 120 could be better spent on other art (multiple pieces perhaps) that have more meat on the bone.  I understand that this is by a key artist and a key book - but it's (for my personal enjoyment taste) very undesirable because of the page content.  As an example - my favorite comic is Groo  If this were a groo page - priced in line with other Groo pages - I wouldn't buy it - as it's not a good example of that series.  Likewise I don't understand the desire to own any example from a book regardless of content- just to own a piece of it.  If you are a collector who buys any art simply as an example to add to your collection, feel free to chime in and give us insight into what drives this. 

2 hours ago, ESeffinga said:

The entire conversation rests on where the goalposts are placed, and who is placing them. That is no doubt.
And comparing an artist's work against his or her oeuvre is pretty self-explanatory. Every individual has their own internal ranking, and average enough together and certain preference patterns will emerge.

What is a more interesting mental exercise to me personally, is when we do start to look at those un-like comparisons at a strictly dollar for dollar level. I was just reading though some of the ongoing threads here on the boards, and pulling these two completely different comps together, I'm struck by how conflicted it makes me feel.

I am thinking of the recent Killing Joke 1 page, and the recent Frazetta painting sale. Some proffering that the KJ page is a B (or even C), and many feel similarly about the Frazetta piece. I know that examining these individually myself, neither does a whole lot for me, so irregardless of their prices, I'd never be actively chasing either one. Which leaves me feeling at least somewhat objective in looking at where they do really stand if I was comparing these apples and oranges as if they were obtainable.

They are from completely different disciplines, with completely different goals. They are also both works created when many feel they were in their "prime" years. The Frazetta is "complete" in that it doesn't require any before and after, to know what it is. It's light, for a Frazetta. There's danger, but the palette is almost pretty and reminiscent of Frank's lighter whimsical watercolor pieces. The piece is more about a tenseness and suspense, rather than the explosion of action that so many other pieces of Frazettas have. These could all be seen or pros or cons, depending on the viewer.

While I may not be a huge fan of this particular Frazetta, I can't help but find myself being surprised that the KJ piece even within 1/6 the value.

Killing Joke IS a seminal work. Moore and Bolland at their finest. And yet, this exact page feels to me, like a consolation prize.
Would a truly stellar page from KJ feel worth more than the Frazetta to me? Absolutely. I'd take a top-tier KJ page over the Mid-Tier Frazetta any day. But this ain't that.

To me, the Batman arrival page is total setup. And not even important setup, or exposition, or anything narratively crucial to the book. On the art side, you get some rain, a couple non-dynamic Batmobile partials, Batman limb, a small Batman Silo Batman from the back, and then 2 decent shots of Gordon and an officer with bits of Batman in the corners. It's VERY solid storytelling, and beatifully rendered but it's wholly unremarkable. The most remarkable thing about it is what it is a part of. The remarkable stuff is ALL on the other pages of the book though.

And then I think of the other thread, and how upon seeing all the thumbnails of the pages laid out before me, I said I felt like I'd take any page from about half or more of the book, than this one. Looking back on it now, I'd probably take more than 3/4 of the book over P1.

So I look at the KJ page end price, and I look at the Frazetta one, and it's a little scary to me how close the P1 KJ gets to the Frazetta.

We all know all this stuff is relative and subjective, but as I said in the other thread, it's a little freaky how quickly these "nostalgia" driven prices are rising.

And if you don't like the Frazetta comparison, I seem to recall someone said that a really good KJ page could set you back $500-600K. I'd trade 6 copies of P. 1 for the great pages all day long and twice on Sunday, if that comparison makes more sense to folks. The idea that it would only take 6 p.1 quality pages to have a great piece seems like a deal to me.

But then looking at what P1 costs, what a Great page costs, I come back to reality. How did we get to these figures in the first place? By rationalizations like mine.

It's nuts!
I'm nuts.

 

-e.

And there's the rub.

1 hour ago, delekkerste said:

Yes, that's why it's a C and not a D in my estimation.  If we call it a D, then what do we call the kind of drek that you are describing (random indie character page drawn by no name/not memorable artist)?  E level?  F? 

On the flip side, no way can this one be called a B page given how much better Captain America art would be in that category.  Even lesser pages by the top Cap artists like Kirby are B pages IMO; pages like the example you posted are a clear step down and have more in common with D pages than B. 

But, like Felix said, that's OK.  It's why you can buy Arvell Jones pages for 3 figures and not 5.  Nothing wrong with that if you just like the page or the character and want a relatively inexpensive example without any consideration for getting CAF views or making money on resale. 

 

 

I think what you say is fair if A, B etc.. is across all artists and titles.. but within a character or single artist - perhaps there can be another measure?

Also - would it be fair to say while there are few As, there are way more Bs etc..

2 hours ago, Timely said:

Not aimed towards anyone, but if I had just bought a piece of art that I felt was an "A" level piece and others chimed in saying they felt it was "B" or even "C" level art that would really leave a bad taste in my mouth.

I may even be more upset if I was selling a piece of art and others were downplaying it, especially if they have no interest in buying it.

If I ask for opinions then the floor is open to any type of criticism. I only give positive feedback on things I like, if I do not like the art, I do not comment on it.

Most of what I like is B or C material (in so far as characters and artists  are concerned). I appreciate some A stuff - but budget and nostalgia being what it is - I love a lot of B comics and C characters.  If others chime in and pointthat out about my collection - It's not a problem.  Just to illustrate what I am saying - I enjoy : Groo, Madman, firestorm, Blue Beetle, Deadman, Cloak and Dagger, etc.. just as much or more than say Batman. Or titles such as worlds finest, brave and the bold, marvel team-up, etc.. as much as say Amazing Spiderman.

Check caf. 2 pieces were posted for sale in past couple of weeks

20 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

I had a chance to buy this page recently. This is by Arvell Jones, and the question I have is: what level art is this? 

Its obviously got a great image that hits a lot of collector sweet spots. But Arvell is not a highly collected artist and it’s from a Cap annual that is not necessarily in demand. Although a splash (which I consider to be inferior to this page) from this same Issue sold for 0ver $1100 recently at Heritage. 

This is exactly the question I had in mind when starting this thread. A real Great action page from a B or C title by a solid but not 'famous' artist.  A lot of art like this has been moving on up in value lately.  In my book it's A material but from a B creator/title therefore B level art.  If it were the same artist on the same book but a talking page with no heroes- it would be C or d level. This is all just guessing. What do others think?

Is this article written by the Felix Podcast guest from a while back?

1 hour ago, LB JEFFERIES said:

See: Alex Toth 

I'll second that motion! Alex Toth art is not simple in any way.  It's just less detailed. Details/rendering doesn't = craft. Craft I think is working at a high level (due to knowledge, skill, practice and effort) in any area of expertise. So while it applies to artists, it could apply to most skilled professions.

On the less is more argument - I always think of Charlie Brown. Damn he seems so simple to draw- but it ain't easy!

How do you guys feel about Chris Ware from a craft perspective?  Personally - I can't enjoy his work because it is so technical/clinical looking. If there is warmth or emotion in the art- I do not see it.  He is skilled - but his technical focus leaves me cold.  This thread has been looking at craft vs nostalgia - but to add another dimension - I buy art based on emotion. Nostalgia and craft both played a role in how I feel when I look at a work of art.  Appreciating art on an intellectual level (ex. Why an artist is important or influential, in the history of the medium etc..) does not budge me when it comes to spending.

I am asking because I know he has a lot of fans - and his work commands big bucks.  I suspect that what others like about his craft is exactly what turns me off to his work.

The question I would have regarding your (@delekkerste) initial argument that I would love for you to clear up is - are you saying that craft only exists outside of super hero art? Because there are a ton of talented artists who have and who still are working on superhero art.  These artists bring a high level of craft to their work -it's simply that it was applied to characters in costume. Jim Lee for example has pretty much only done superhero art -and I think he is awesome at it.

Now to answer the question - you are correct - Nostalgia trumps craft by a wide margin.   Having said that - Craft distinguishes various art within that. So for example - in any given hero title (say spiderman, superman etc..) certain artists come on top in popularity and demand.  That is in part due to their style/craft.  At the same time - many collectors are not that sophisticated when it comes to drawing,anatomy, etc..  For them, nostalgia is probably the biggest factor.

As a collector of both comic art and vintage magazine illustration art - I find that there is tremendous craft in the vintage art I collect -but not a lot of demand -as it is not tied to any nostalgia.

32 minutes ago, awayne83 said:

Nice piece. Always been a fan of Booth's and think he's a little underappreciated. Hope he he gets a full time gig soon 

Wasnt/isn't he doing titans or some such title at DC?

Also - as a related story - I had spoken with Davis Finch once and he told me that he would charge differently for similar art based on the title. So batman art went for more than batman in detective - and that according to him had to do with demand from fans.  

Is it fair to say that A vs B etc..  should be used in comparing similar era stuff.  So silver age A should not be compared to modern or bronze A.  But rather to other art from the same period?

Another thought on the topic - barring a top name artist or key appearence/story- can a really well done piece be an A anyhow? Or is it B or worse without top name talent and story element.?  

24 minutes ago, comicfanboy007 said:

From SDCC. 

Nite Owl. Golden Age cover commission. By Dave Gibbons. To describe this piece as infinitely special doesn’t even begin to cover it. With Watchmen Dave Gibbons and Alan Moore created a story that redefined the medium. My favorite sections were about Hollis Mason the Golden Age Nite-Owl. I poured over them constantly. My comic Mysteryman exists because I wanted more adventures with the character. So to have a new piece of Watchmen artwork by the original artist is just amazing. I love that Dave made it a cover to a comic book. This feels like this should be in Hollis’ apartment, hanging on the wall. It’s a little meta and it makes me love it all the more. I am so grateful that I got to thank Dave for this piece in person over the weekend.

 

http://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=1487366

 

Very cool piece. great photo too!