MAY1979

On 8/20/2024 at 5:47 PM, Benjamin1977 said:

Just got a modern 4 book submission back. 2 have no curved inner wells. 2 do -- big curve/flare out at the top of the books. Doesn't look like it's damages the books, but I can't imagine over time it won't have an affect. Any thoughts on getting them to fix this through the ME process? Or am I just going to get them back with another 2 warped inner wells?

If 2 were fine then no excuse the others are not.

On 8/16/2024 at 11:15 PM, MAR1979 said:

Predictions?

I'm going to say $40-55K. Thoughts?

https://www.comiclink.com/Auctions/item.asp?id=1787427

 

Normal slowing, guessing all who placed ComicLink tracking bids have them in now. 

Curious on how many books need to be submitted Per Annum to be given the premium service enjoyed by some where the books remain in their correct state of flat inside the slab?

Is it $100K? $200K? $500K? $1MM or more in business?

On 8/19/2024 at 11:15 PM, Stefan_W said:

So this is kind of weird to me so I thought I would share. I was selecting a few Werewolf by Night and Tomb of Dracula books to crack for a resub and to take a few pictures of the inner wells with measurements, and as I was going through my collection it was less straightforward than I was expecting. Just sharing in case anyone else is interesting in seeing what I am seeing. 

The top photo has a slab number starting with 425 and was graded by someone else in Nov 2023, which is before changes to the slab were made in response to the switcheroo scam. The inner well on this one is a basic bowl shape we are seeing with all the new ones coming out. 

The middle photo shows two that I graded myself in March of this year with slab numbers that start with 439. I am showing only two of my slabs from this group - one with a bowl shaped bend and the other that is perfectly flat. A few others from this submission have a bend upwards on only one side a several others are also completely flat. 

The bottom photo shows a slab that I graded myself in Apr 2024 from the 441 series. It does have a slight bend on the top but most of the inner well is straight. I have a couple like this, but most of the bends in the others are more pronounced. I also saw way more of a mix than I was expecting with some of the bent ones bending a lot more than others. 

 

Update to my personal guidelines based on evidence supplied in quoted post.  Please note this is very much in flux and sadly continues to trend downward.

1975-present:

• CGC 437 series or higher is an instant swipe left for me! Exception only for purchasing at Cons or Shops and able to give the book a detailed viewing from all side edges
• CGC 425-436  must see book in hand. No Online purchasing unless seller willing and able to provide clear high-res side view pics! Ensure purchase via Merchants with a buyer friendly return policy like MCS, Comiclink, eBay. Do not "get attached to the book" prior to viewing in person.
• CGC 423-424  If purchasing Online Proceed with caution! ensure only via Merchants with a buyer friendly return policy like MCS, Comiclink, eBay. Do not "get attached to the book" prior to viewing in person.
• CGC 422 and below (2016 or later slabs) Currently presumed safe? Still its best to see book in hand first. Also be aware of Newton Rings . If purchasing any post 2016 slab Online Proceed with caution!, safest if via Merchants/Entities with a buyer friendly return policy like MCS, Comiclink, eBay.

Pre-1975:

• CGC 425 series or higher, slab by slab basis, see book in hand if possible. If purchasing Online Proceed with extreme caution! ensure only via Merchants with a buyer friendly return policy like MCS, Comiclink, eBay. Do not "get attached to the book" prior to viewing in person.
• CGC 424 and below (2016 or later slabs) Currently presumed safe. Still its best to see book in hand first. Also be aware of Newton Rings . If purchasing what you feel is a higher value Comic Online Proceed with caution!, ensure it's only via Merchants/Entities with a buyer friendly return policy like MCS, Comiclink, eBay.

On 8/20/2024 at 9:30 AM, Skytripa said:

Kinda curious if the bend is something with the actual encapsulation process. If there are multiple people doing it maybe it comes down to 1 station or employee that is doing it different. Would explain why some are good and some are not.

CGC has stated the bending/curve is normal, thus all books should have it. If only one station then CGC's claim is false.

 

On 8/19/2024 at 10:18 PM, Stuk said:

Not "any" business. If they lose enough--if enough people stop buying (and selling!) the affected slabs--then they'll have to act. But there is a middle ground, of course--they can quietly fix it without admission of there ever having been a problem. Not perfect, but probably manageable. (Then, CGC can go back to not addressing its other major issues other than the truly poor case, such as conflicts of interest, etc. All of that said, I also think CGC, if they correct these things, is super valuable. But it kind of all starts with the case not harming the books.)

I like what you are saying but if they fix then how do they back out of their official stance of curving/concaving "is normal".  Seems to me they are in too deep and will only double down.

Aren't those the coin slabs that dude used to sell on HSN

On 8/19/2024 at 2:27 PM, EastEnd1 said:

The fact that they're taking them back is already an admission of "guilt".  Though I don't see any guilt here... just an error in their slabbing rework.  Frankly, if they don't want to call it a fix, that's fine... all they need to do is rework the sealing process and/or holder as they've already done innumerable times before, problem solved.  Not sure why you'd continue to grow your exposure when the fix is presumably easy... the risk/reward just doesn't add up.

The returns are came back still curved/concaved/bent/bowled . The only differences between before and after are standard deviations related to the process.

Again their stance is its normal. They are in a defend their bottom line position and that won't change. 

If they start to fix returns or new subs books going out is an admission of guilt which exposes them $$$.

You can bet they have already run cost to risk analysis. Thus their stoppage of returns and official response of "its normal".

We can talk all we like about it but for those few who care about the actual condition of the book inside a slab its already Game Over.

On 8/19/2024 at 1:38 PM, EastEnd1 said:

I haven't read this entire thread but my understanding is that they are accepting some of these slabs back and correcting them.  So unless you want to be doing that ad infinitum, seems to me you'd be working on correcting the issue, especially since it appears to not have been an issue until recently and one would think, an easy fix.

The acceptance of returns may have already stopped.  Official message is that the damage is normal - end of problem.

As mentioned in recent posts correcting the issue is tantamount to admission of guilt and will likely result in significant expense.

There is no point if return, they are in too deep, from now on its deny deny deny and repeat repeat repeat.

BTW I'm seeing chatter from collectors as well as sellers on another grading Co's forums about dumping all affected books to various non buyer has all power venues !

For all that care about actual condition of the comic and not simply number on label; Be very very very careful folks!

On 8/19/2024 at 1:16 PM, electricprune said:

Unfortunately, I don’t think Mike is going to be able to help here. CGC has stated already that:

“They looked over your pictures and the picture that shows the book bowed in the case is how the book is supposed to be sitting inside of the slab and is not warped. “

To CGC, there is no fix needed.

As per my last post they are in way too deep and will double then triple down.

Any business they lose will be less than admission of guilt. 

If against all odds it begins to hurt their bottom line, and Executive Bonus', the parent company will end the pump and dump and sell off CGC. It will then be the next owners problem...

Of course the potential financial ramification to small-medium size sellers in this bearish Comic Market that depend on both purchases as well as legit bids is not calculable.

If you are one of those folks  in a defend stance on the issue (or from your public POV, a non-issue), you need to seriously  consider a pivot to remain viable past the short term. 

Interesting Food for Thought:

As pre-1975 appears on the whole not have the same issue, this means cause is almost certainly known behind the scenes.

Implementing a change to correct the issue on 1975-present is tantamount to an admission of guilt. A admission that could easily prove very co$tly.

The parent company has one concern and one concern only; profit. What would best serve an Exec to protect profit and increase their next bonus?

Seems to me the only way to protect profit and an Exec's bonus is to do nothing on 1975-present, then expand the issue to completely encompass pre-1975.

Thus no admission of guilt, as all is "normal", and least potential profit loss. The Execs making the call succeed in padding their bonus', they then simply execute their planned 18-24 month skeddaddle leaving the mess to the next round of Exec who will do the same.

Thoughts?

P.S. I've worked/worked my way up Fortune 20 firms since the late 1990s. Anyone who does not factor Executive Bonus' is someone who lacks true understanding of "the real game"

Update to my personal guidelines.  Please note this is very much in flux.

1975-present:

• CGC 437 series or higher is an instant swipe left for me!
• CGC 430-436  must see book in hand. No Online purchasing!
• CGC 423-429  Proceed with caution! If purchasing Online ensure it's only via Merchants with a buyer friendly return policy like MCS, Comiclink, eBay. Do not "get attached to the book" prior to viewing in person.

Pre-1975:

• CGC 437 series or higher, slab by slab basis, see book in hand if possible. Proceed with caution! If purchasing Online ensure it's only via Merchants with a buyer friendly return policy like MCS, Comiclink, eBay. Do not "get attached to the book" prior to viewing in person.
• CGC 423-436 Currently presumed safe. Still better to see book in hand first. If purchasing what you feel is a higher value Comic Online, ensure it's only via Merchants with a buyer friendly return policy like MCS, Comiclink, eBay.

On 8/18/2024 at 7:33 AM, Rick2you2 said:

To be candid, I don’t like it. The extensive use of the border “squiggles” detracts from the central image. Adding the spots on the dragon-creature makes it worse. There should have been, IMO, more of a contrast between light and dark to make the central image stand out. I suspect Layton knew he may have overdone it due to the black background behind IM.

Buzzkill

Yeah OK a tad busy, still IMO it created the intended illusion effect on the final product, which was THE goal.

On 8/14/2024 at 5:55 PM, MAR1979 said:

CCCCHHHHHAAAARRRRGGGGEEEEBACKS!

Use them!  Use them for purchase of Goods or SERVICES. Especially with Chase, Amex and BOA who have the most sway especially the former!

Reminder

On 8/18/2024 at 11:07 AM, DC# said:

I did some random checks of slabs I have purchased in the past year (Clink, Instagram) - a mix of Bronze and Silver - and I did find some books in the 414 and 420 series that showed some of the same effects.    Strangely, some of those books were not bowed in a "C" but the inner well was very much on a slant with the top edge resting higher in the slab than the bottom edge.   There were even a few that were bowed in the opposite direction as most of the photos shown here.

 I also looked at some lower series 3rd Gen slabs (200s, 300s) and found many of the Silver age books have inner wells that actually sit at the bottom of the slab (so the back cover of the entire book seems to be resting much closer to the back of the slab).   It was hard to even see the book in the slab from the side because of the distorted view created by the thickness of the outer shell.   

Seeing similar results. Appears a tiny bit of bowing may have been situation for long while, but totally dwarfed by the degree to which it is now. 

Received 2 books in mail yesterday; Series 091 and 101 2nd Gen slabs, both comics perfectly level and flat as a pancake. CS may say it bowing/concaving and associated damage it causes is "normal", but it's not good and its not right.

On 8/17/2024 at 8:23 PM, Phil Coulson said:

Thought I'd share my story here and I'll do it as briefly as I can.  I recently won two separate auctions for 9.8 slabs from ComicLink and MyComicShop.  Both were $150-$300 books.  They were delivered about the same time and I could immediately tell something was wrong with them.  Each has obvious spine stresses causing bends on the front with 2-3 severe spine ticks between the staples. 

I reached out to customer service at each auction house and asked if they knew about this issue at CGC and each admitted they did but clearly didn't want to get into a discussion about it.  They had me send pics and a statement and both gave me a full refund.  In my opinion they were both liable as well since they also KNOW about the issue like everyone else does and shouldn't be selling the coming out of CGC right now.  Kudos to them for the refund and if you see it from an auction I suggest you send it back.  They are large enough that maybe, just maybe CGC will care what they think.  I think it's clear they don't care what the average Joe customer thinks.

My suggestion is to not slab any future orders with CGC until we know for sure it is corrected.  I personally won't do that nor purchase a CGC slab anywhere that was slabbed after June/July 2023.  If these guys made cars we'd all be looking at other models and that's exactly what I'm doing.

On 8/17/2024 at 9:19 PM, electricprune said:

Thanks for posting this. If some of the bigger auction houses are taking books back, this will likely cause them to scrutinize these books. It may not make sense for them to sell them going forward. This will leave sellers and flippers with fewer options to unload them. Or, they might just realize lower selling prices.

Hopefully, CGC will have to take this more seriously at some point.

Folks - know that Heritage has been in bed with the Newport Beach CA folks for a long time on the Trading Card front. The same could be said of course for CGC on the Comics side - my point is Heritage already has an established mutual beneficial relation$hip so it may not take much effort (kickbacks,graft,seed money,etc) from the CA gang to extended that to Comics.

As for Comiclink and MCS well that's a different story they will likley eat returns and all associated costs, like they have for Newton Ring's and Shaken Comic Syndrome, as long they are exceptions. If the returns become semi-common they may alter their policies? This means the average buyer is out luck and out their money, unless CLink or MCS muster the courage to play hardball with CGC. My guess is they either can't or won't, as evidenced by their long time collective deafening silence regarding Newton Ring's and Shaken Comic Syndrome.

^ ANY Sal 1970's Hulk Title Page is page I want to see!

eGerber 914M2 - usually can find decent deals on ebay with free shipping

@Jay Kurian order BCW from Amazon it's usually 25% less!

On 8/17/2024 at 2:51 PM, Sauce Dog said:

Some people on other boards are reporting their 434's are also bowed/warped inside.

434 series was Oct/Nov 2023. I examined both my Vintage and Modern subs from the series and they look about same as the 395 series slabs I had handy for comparison.  My 434's are all pre-fixed 4342

If correct This makes the potential start date prior to "Slabgate" being identified. 

Re-calibrating:

I agree, too tiny and low res to make a determination

On 8/17/2024 at 1:44 PM, Yorick said:

Big ole convention this weekend in San Jose, CA.  Close enough to drive to.  I gotta get outta here and take my bent CGC book to show off!

and let the folks knows CGC's current official Customer Service Stance is it's normal and expected for CGC to damage your merchandise.

On 8/17/2024 at 12:33 PM, Ninja0215 said:

I did crack my ASM 41 ( it was a harder break than I thought, split like broken glass). I pulled the well out, and it kinds looks like Stefan was right! There is still a bend in the book but not as pronounced.  I'm standing firm on the notion that I'm not sending cgc any more books, but this was an interesting find. 

To complete the ledger; you spent all the money to have the book graded and slabbed, Now have cracked it out thus defeating that purpose and are left with a book that is worse (even if only by a little), due to the Slab inner well issue, then when you sent it in!

I'd love the defenders to explain how that is in any way a positive thing. 

Where I come from what we have here is called a No Win Scenario or in today's vernacular; LOSE-LOSE or translated to Star Trek; Kobayashi Maru.

Which begs the question why on earth would a non-masicist collector continue to submit or purchase (post Nov 2023 slabs)???