which one would you choose, and why ???

[tth2]

Here's one that crosses Genres. Which one would you choose, and why?

Obsess much?

[Filter81]

Tim,

 

Just last night you called any restored Detective 27 toxic waste. You attacked me personally. You attacked me professionally. And you insulted my integrity. I don't know what your life is like, but that sort of thing doesn't happen to me often. So if you're asking me if its still on my mind this morning, yes. But lets keep this thread about the books please.

[ciorac]

Tim,

 

Just last night you called any restored Detective 27 toxic waste. You attacked me personally. You attacked me professionally. And you insulted my integrity. I don't know what your life is like, but that sort of thing doesn't happen to me often. So if you're asking me if its still on my mind this morning, yes. But lets keep this thread about the books please.

 

Here is my retort Adam:

 

All comic books OTHER than Detective 27 are toxic waste.

 

If Tim insulted you and attacked your integrity and professionalism, then he obviously dosen't know anything about you, or has gone completely insane. I think trying to find value in his high grade Duck books has finally driven him over the top.

 

Adam is about as fine a fellow in the hobby anyone could be fortunate enough to meet. Period.

[DrWatson]

B&B #28. No restoration please. Thank you. I don't care if it is Batman's 1st appearance. I would rather read the B&B, if that counts for anything.

[batman_fan]

det 27

[G.A.tor]

Here's one that crosses Genres. Which one would you choose, and why?

 

 

 

that sure is one pretty book...and I can tell you, that while resto is defined as extensive, it was/is no frankenbook...most of the pieces added were top of the front cover...book was nice before resto, and great looking after

gator

[tth2]

But lets keep this thread about the books please.

Adam, I said I was walking away from the other thread and I did. Your posting here was clearly meant to provoke me and continue the argument. I was just calling a spade a spade. I don`t want to derail Steve`s thread here either, so I will leave it at that.

[Aman619]

how is the book only an 8.5? How does CGC grade a book with the work that was done to this copy? It "looks" 9.2 or 9.4.... T thought CGC give the grade a restored book APPEARS to be. Does this copy only appear to be an 8.5 in person?

[showcase4]

Here's one that crosses Genres. Which one would you choose, and why?

 

 

These are both gorgeous keys, and this is a very good match up IMO.

1st of all, the Tec 27 looks more NM- than it does VF+ unless there is something going on with the spine or back cover that can not be seen in this scan.( just a footnote ).

 

I wil try to be as PC as I can......Tec 27 is a much 'bigger', more Iconic key by far than the B&B28, but I perosnally would not choose it over B&B due to the extensive resto. To take that to another level, even if the Tec had moderate or slight resto, I would still choose the B&B28. I would think this puts me in a small minority here on the Boards, but I do not collect restored books...period ( not that there's anything wrong with that! ). When I switched my focus from Platinum Age collecting to Golden Age collecting last year, I came up with some parameters for myself, and so far I have follewd them, and it has paid off nicely. They include: unrestored only, keys in any grade or non-keys in high grade, and Superhero or Classic Cover focused. This may rule out alot of great books for me like this Tec 27, but I am being true to myself, and collecting what I like, which is also what I believe will perform best over time. I just can't deal with a PLOD on any book I own.

As pretty as this 27 is, I would rather have a Fair/Good 1.5 Blue than a Purple 8.5.

 

Brave and the Bold #28 for me without any hesitation.

I hope I have expressed my views without ruffling any feathers.....the subject of resto is always the sensitive one to talk about on the Boards

 

Steve

[G.A.tor]

how is the book only an 8.5? How does CGC grade a book with the work that was done to this copy? It "looks" 9.2 or 9.4.... T thought CGC give the grade a restored book APPEARS to be. Does this copy only appear to be an 8.5 in person?

that is another reason, this book was likely an easy sell, as it "looks" about as good as any Tec 27 can appear...but, because there is resto, cgc grades for the technical flaws as well? (naturally, if this book was untouched, and looked this good, it probably would get a 9.0 or better)...back cover is perfect (as good, if not better looking than the front)

so, again, buy the book, not the #...and if you inspect this "extensive" restored book, who is to say it is not one drop of c/t from having been designated "moderate" (I mean, there has to be a fine line between the two, right?)...

 

this is where I wholeheartedly agree with ciorac, we need a way to distinquish between "franken" extensive (like that superman 1 that had 1/2 of the front cover replaced with a xerox), and books that are designated "extensive" but that probably border on Mod/Ext (different ends of the extensive spectrum)

gator

[MutantKeys]

 

Tough Call. You have the first appearance of Batman which is agruably the second most important comic in the history of comics, but we are focusing on the comic itself here which involves many factors including the condition. Now Tec 27 isnt scarce by a long shot. If I had the funds to collect such high end comics I could find a Tec 27 in less than a day where as the Brave and the Bold 28 isnt hard to find either but it is very difficult to find in HG and would be much more difficult to get. The Tec 27 is obviously a frankenbook which tells me that the book was originally in much lower condition before getting a make-over and the B&B 28 is in un-restored 9.4 condition, which is the highest in the census and arguabally the best copy in the world (slabbed and un-slabbed). Getting a mid-grade Tec 27 and turning it into a frankenbook would be a much easier task to accomplish than getting a HG B&B 28 so in this case I will take the B&B 28 ....

[DrWatson]

Good God! Was that a paragraph!?!

[Aman619]

how is the book only an 8.5? How does CGC grade a book with the work that was done to this copy? It "looks" 9.2 or 9.4.... T thought CGC give the grade a restored book APPEARS to be. Does this copy only appear to be an 8.5 in person?

that is another reason, this book was likely an easy sell, as it "looks" about as good as any Tec 27 can appear...but, because there is resto, cgc grades for the technical flaws as well? (naturally, if this book was untouched, and looked this good, it probably would get a 9.0 or better)...back cover is perfect (as good, if not better looking than the front)

so, again, buy the book, not the #...and if you inspect this "extensive" restored book, who is to say it is not one drop of c/t from having been designated "moderate" (I mean, there has to be a fine line between the two, right?)...

 

this is where I wholeheartedly agree with ciorac, we need a way to distinquish between "franken" extensive (like that superman 1 that had 1/2 of the front cover replaced with a xerox), and books that are designated "extensive" but that probably border on Mod/Ext (different ends of the extensive spectrum)

gator

 

okay. but lets follow what you say. If we are to buy th ebook, not th elabel, then this book was far less than an 8.5 or the 9.2 it appears to be. Why?? well, obviously, if it looked anywhere near this good, it wouldnt have needed that much work done to it! (Pieces added, cover cleaned/pressed (because extensive restoration involving a cleaning usually includes pressing too) and reattached, tear seals) hardly anyone would have ever felt the need to get any restoration done at all, save for a dot of ct or a little glue on a corner.

 

It now looks like a killer Church copy. If it looked that good originally, I agree it might have been the second best copy. Logic dictates that was somewhere like a 3.0 to 5.0 copy. If Im right, and we could see the before and after, it might not be a full 'frankenbook' (no extensive cover painting etc) but a vast visual and structural improvement... a far cry from th econdition it had regressed to.

 

Im not trying to slam the book, just follow up on your statement which, to my ears, seemed to say the book wasnt so bad before and didnt need much work. Ive been moved in my time on the Boards to give a second look to high grade books with the slightest unfortunate dots of work, but Moderate or Extensive are too far over my line.

[piper]

I would choose the Tec 27. Restored or not, this book is iconic! How many people outside of our lovely little community have even heard of the Justice League?

 

 

[Aman619]

 

Tough Call. You have the first appearance of Batman which is agruably the second most important comic in the history of comics, but we are focusing on the comic itself here which involves many factors including the condition. Now Tec 27 isnt scarce by a long shot. If I had the funds to collect such high end comics I could find a Tec 27 in less than a day where as the Brave and the Bold 28 isnt hard to find either but it is very difficult to find in HG and would be much more difficult to get. The Tec 27 is obviously a frankenbook which tells me that the book was originally in much lower condition before getting a make-over and the B&B 28 is in un-restored 9.4 condition, which is the highest in the census and arguabally the best copy in the world (slabbed and un-slabbed). Getting a mid-grade Tec 27 and turning it into a frankenbook would be a much easier task to accomplish than getting a HG B&B 28 so in this case I will take the B&B 28 ....

 

what a good argument. yeah, as scarce as Tec 27s are, you could wait awhile and pick up a low grade copy and for a couple grand build a copy like this one. But youd wait a long time for another freak copy of BB28 in 9.4. The only question remaining is the demand side of the equation. I think the number of people whod want ANY copy of Tec27 is larger than those who want only the BEST BB28... for the $$$ involved that is.

 

Im aware this contest arose out of some harsh words spoken or perceived about the sale, but its an interesting contest, eh?

[october]

If I was picking as a collector I would go with the Tec 27. If I was picking as an investor I would choose the Brave and Bold.

[G.A.tor]

 

Tough Call. You have the first appearance of Batman which is agruably the second most important comic in the history of comics, but we are focusing on the comic itself here which involves many factors including the condition. Now Tec 27 isnt scarce by a long shot. If I had the funds to collect such high end comics I could find a Tec 27 in less than a day where as the Brave and the Bold 28 isnt hard to find either but it is very difficult to find in HG and would be much more difficult to get. The Tec 27 is obviously a frankenbook which tells me that the book was originally in much lower condition before getting a make-over and the B&B 28 is in un-restored 9.4 condition, which is the highest in the census and arguabally the best copy in the world (slabbed and un-slabbed). Getting a mid-grade Tec 27 and turning it into a frankenbook would be a much easier task to accomplish than getting a HG B&B 28 so in this case I will take the B&B 28 ....

 

what a good argument. yeah, as scarce as Tec 27s are, you could wait awhile and pick up a low grade copy and for a couple grand build a copy like this one. But youd wait a long time for another freak copy of BB28 in 9.4. The only question remaining is the demand side of the equation. I think the number of people whod want ANY copy of Tec27 is larger than those who want only the BEST BB28... for the $$$ involved that is.

 

Im aware this contest arose out of some harsh words spoken or perceived about the sale, but its an interesting contest, eh?

hello all...

not sure how well folks know the Tec 27 market, but even a fr will run you in excess of $30-40K just to touch these days...and then, can likely only be improved to the vg/fn range...

to get a book, extensive or not, improved to 8.5+ range, that book would likely have to be, as someone else stated, a 3.0 or better (probably 4.0 or better)...

a 4.0 tec 27, unrestored blue, right now would sell close to $100K...so, if you can get a restored copy, moderate, slight, extensive, etc, that looks great, has professional work done, for 20-40% less, then I say it is a good buy (just my opinion)...

gator

[G.A.tor]

how is the book only an 8.5? How does CGC grade a book with the work that was done to this copy? It "looks" 9.2 or 9.4.... T thought CGC give the grade a restored book APPEARS to be. Does this copy only appear to be an 8.5 in person?

that is another reason, this book was likely an easy sell, as it "looks" about as good as any Tec 27 can appear...but, because there is resto, cgc grades for the technical flaws as well? (naturally, if this book was untouched, and looked this good, it probably would get a 9.0 or better)...back cover is perfect (as good, if not better looking than the front)

so, again, buy the book, not the #...and if you inspect this "extensive" restored book, who is to say it is not one drop of c/t from having been designated "moderate" (I mean, there has to be a fine line between the two, right?)...

 

this is where I wholeheartedly agree with ciorac, we need a way to distinquish between "franken" extensive (like that superman 1 that had 1/2 of the front cover replaced with a xerox), and books that are designated "extensive" but that probably border on Mod/Ext (different ends of the extensive spectrum)

gator

 

okay. but lets follow what you say. If we are to buy th ebook, not th elabel, then this book was far less than an 8.5 or the 9.2 it appears to be. Why?? well, obviously, if it looked anywhere near this good, it wouldnt have needed that much work done to it! (Pieces added, cover cleaned/pressed (because extensive restoration involving a cleaning usually includes pressing too) and reattached, tear seals) hardly anyone would have ever felt the need to get any restoration done at all, save for a dot of ct or a little glue on a corner.

 

It now looks like a killer Church copy. If it looked that good originally, I agree it might have been the second best copy. Logic dictates that was somewhere like a 3.0 to 5.0 copy. If Im right, and we could see the before and after, it might not be a full 'frankenbook' (no extensive cover painting etc) but a vast visual and structural improvement... a far cry from th econdition it had regressed to.

 

Im not trying to slam the book, just follow up on your statement which, to my ears, seemed to say the book wasnt so bad before and didnt need much work. Ive been moved in my time on the Boards to give a second look to high grade books with the slightest unfortunate dots of work, but Moderate or Extensive are too far over my line.

hello all...

just to be clear, CGC has designated the amount of restoration on this copy as extensive...my point, is that if there was maybe a little less c/t, or something else minor not done to this copy, it would likely be in the moderate restored range (and likely grade numerically lower)...

I would like to see an extensive scale, sort like 1-10...with 10 being a franken book, and 1, being really close to moderate...kind of like E1 or E7 or E10...."extensive" does not have to have a negative connotation to it, but , and I will re-emphasize, for a book to get that high of a numerical grade from cgc, with extensive resto, it did start out much nicer (maybe 3.0-5.0 as you suggest) than what the stereotypically extensive restored book does, and one can only wonder why the owner that commissioned the restoration, had it done?

rick

[showcase4]

 

not sure how well folks know the Tec 27 market, but even a fr will run you in excess of $30-40K just to touch these days...

a 4.0 tec 27, unrestored blue, right now would sell close to $100K...

gator

 

This is correct

[G.A.tor]

 

Tough Call. You have the first appearance of Batman which is agruably the second most important comic in the history of comics, but we are focusing on the comic itself here which involves many factors including the condition. Now Tec 27 isnt scarce by a long shot. If I had the funds to collect such high end comics I could find a Tec 27 in less than a day where as the Brave and the Bold 28 isnt hard to find either but it is very difficult to find in HG and would be much more difficult to get. The Tec 27 is obviously a frankenbook which tells me that the book was originally in much lower condition before getting a make-over and the B&B 28 is in un-restored 9.4 condition, which is the highest in the census and arguabally the best copy in the world (slabbed and un-slabbed). Getting a mid-grade Tec 27 and turning it into a frankenbook would be a much easier task to accomplish than getting a HG B&B 28 so in this case I will take the B&B 28 ....

interesting...comaring tec 27 to BB 28 is kind of like comparing apples to oranges, in my opinion, but I understand where the initial offering came from... tec 27 is EXTREMELY scarce, both in general, and relative to BB 28...we sometimes get spoiled, because we have Metropolis, which has an incredible ability to secure and offer rare books (such as Tec 27)...that said, right now, there are only 2 tec 27 copies in the entire market (that I am aware of) for sale...a heavily restored vg/fn, and a restored/trimmed fine.... so, without them, there would be no source for a tec 27 period, in ANY condition (unless you count the Todd copy, which no one really has a clue about right now)....there are 24 total census copies of BB 28 in 8.0 or better (with 6 being 8.5 or better restored)...there are 3 copies of Tec 27 in the census 8.0 or better (all 3 restored, all 3 extensive)...

I can tell you first hand, that the tec 27 shown was NOT/is NOT a frankenbook (in the traditional sense)...it had a jagged top front cover edge that needed a fair amount of piece replacement (but in a "non critical" area, if you will...just yellow border), and needed some cleaning and color touch/reinforcement, seals, etc...could have been approx a g/vg before resto (technically), but overall, had a much stronger appearance ...

now, I bet of those 18 copies of BB 28 that are 8.0 and higher "blue", quite a few could be pressed into 9.0's and higher...so, I would have to contend, that it would be far easier to get a high grade (9.0 or higher) BB 28, than even finding "any" tec 27 period (in any condition)...finding one in 8.5 or better extensive restored condition, to me is a far rarer opportunity...

just my 2 cents

gator