PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[crassus]

Apparently the letter of the rules are much more important than the actual spirit of them.

 

Normally the rules are derived from the spirit of the law, in order to try to produce fair outcomes. I don't think opposing rules to spirit is helpful as it opens the door to endless justifications for ignoring or skipping rules.

 

If there are rules here that are seen as consistently frustrating justice, than we should discuss changing them, but I don't see the rules here as being the problem.

 

I don't think anybody has broken any rules in nominating Hustruck for the HoS. I personally don't think the vote was itself invalid or against the rules. What is happening here is harder than that. What is happening here is a bigger difference in views of what are properly HoS worthy offenses.

 

I think we are in fact arguing about the spirit of the rules.

 

For myself, I'm not that far along. My own personal reservations have always been about wanting to see certain evidence posted, before I cast my vote. I have not in fact voted yet, and I guess I will not as it stands now.

 

If the vote should be revived at some point, I will still wait to see the communications posted before I vote.

 

 

[CAHokie]

Never seen anything wrong with having a little loyalty to your friends. I think we've all been guilty of that.

 

Agreed. Henchman implies though that you do whatever they say. A lackey to someone. Swick only wishes I would do that. All jokes aside though, yes, if he (or any friend) is being attacked unjustly, I will absolutely stand up for them.

[Hado]

Oh no! Am I on someone's list now??

 

Wait, aren't you already on the list of 'Harvey's Henchmen'?

 

I am?!?

 

 

I honestly didn't know that. He is my bud, but he will be the first to tell you that I argue with him more than just about anyone on the boards.

 

I don't know if you are or aren't, I'm just goofing around. And it's a good friendship if you can disagree as much as you do, and it doesn't affect it.

[jsilverjanet]

Apparently the letter of the rules are much more important than the actual spirit of them.

 

Normally the rules are derived from the spirit of the law, in order to try to produce fair outcomes. I don't think opposing rules to spirit is helpful as it opens the door to endless justifications for ignoring or skipping rules.

 

If there are rules here that are seen as consistently frustrating justice, than we should discuss changing them, but I don't see the rules here as being the problem.

 

I don't think anybody has broken any rules in nominating Hustruck for the HoS. I personally don't think the vote was itself invalid or against the rules. What is happening here is harder than that. What is happening here is a bigger difference in views of what are properly HoS worthy offenses.

 

I think we are in fact arguing about the spirit of the rules.

 

For myself, I'm not that far along. My own personal reservations have always been about wanting to see certain evidence posted, before I cast my vote. I have not in fact voted yet, and I guess I will not as it stands now.

 

If the vote should be revived at some point, I will still wait to see the communications posted before I vote.

 

 

You PMed them both correct?

[CAHokie]

I knew you were Hado! There has to be some fun in these debates!

[crassus]

Not a reply to Oakman but a reply in general.

 

I hear things like the letter of the law is more important than the spirit of the law. That actually makes no sense. Without the letter of the law there would BE no law. And if the spirit overrides the letter then a precedent has been set which, as I sometimes have expressed over the years, is disturbing.

 

I and others have asked a simple thing: please produce some documentation beyond a comment made in a charity thread about lowballing or a "if you don't read this you are homosexual" on an ebay post or a sociology 101 comment about someone else. I asked for that early on when I quoted Harvey's nomination poll.

 

Unless I missed these in all the past posts no one has, but I think one or two said they would look for them.

 

Please post any unresolved issues here. I would be happy to make the HOS poll myself based on them and have no problem including the PL issue with the "borrowed" cracked case image and subsequent reneging on a deal.

 

So, any unresolved issues? Any money due or taken? Anything that goes beyond speculation as to motive is welcome..

 

It may have not been for Oakman but it was most likely for me. I know that you are very familiar with the spirit vs letter of the law analogy. Otherwise, I hope if you ever get a ticket for going 36 in a 35 zone, you sign it with a smile. As much as some enjoy enforcing these rules the same as if they were in a courtroom, utilizing loopholes and "lack of evidence" as reasons to not enforce them is almost amusing. Almost. Some stuff can't be proven to the level of courtroom requirements, because no one has the ability to write search warrants for online documentation. Obviously, it is a chatboard and not a legal matter which would mean that the intentions of the rules written is the most important part. It does not take much common sense to see when a scammer is a scammer or on the flip side, when someone made a mistake. Yes, there will be some right in the middle, but usually it is not that hard to see.

 

I am addressing here the passage above I bolded. I agree with this, that this is not pretend court, it is different. IMO here we are dealing with some combination of "preponderance of evidence" and "confidence". This may indeed be sufficient to justify putting Hustruck in the HoS. Each of us though, will have a different threshold for how much evidence (and for what) is enough to vote yes.

[A.Romeo]

One member is allowed to post a message in a sales thread that the seller is on the P/L or HOS.

 

That should let buyers know they need to do some research. You don't need to flood their sales threads to keep people safe.

 

I'm ok with someone posting once in a sales thread to warn others.

 

In a repeat offender case I would say even if they currently aren't on a list, there should be allowed to be one post made that the person has been on the list more than once.

Like a warning that the seller has had numerous deals have snags.

 

Interesting.

 

What if someone had a few PL appearances, but then learned what is expected of them an cleaned up their act, would it still be necessary for the warning to be issued?

 

That's a tough call because if you put a time limit on it the scam artist could just lay low for a few months until they outside the probation period. I think if your on more than once its free game forever. You don't get into business transactions unless you can complete said transactions plain and simple. With only having a Kudos thread where you can't put negative feedback how else can people be made aware that this person has a history. Especially if their name isn't on the PL or HOS list at the time. It's way to easy for scammers to get away with things on here with the current rules.

Forevers a long time.

 

So my first two sales threads, just say I'm tardy on shipping, then a book isn't as described and I find myself on the PL twice. I make good and remove myself from the list, then have several years with stellar sales and no issues whatsoever.

 

If someone doesn't like me, they can post in my sales threads I was a repeat offender on the PL?

 

I see what your saying but if your a stand up person you probably don't have to worry about someone going out of their way to post that you are a multiple PL offender. Maybe put a year probation period on it?

[crassus]

Apparently the letter of the rules are much more important than the actual spirit of them.

 

Normally the rules are derived from the spirit of the law, in order to try to produce fair outcomes. I don't think opposing rules to spirit is helpful as it opens the door to endless justifications for ignoring or skipping rules.

 

If there are rules here that are seen as consistently frustrating justice, than we should discuss changing them, but I don't see the rules here as being the problem.

 

I don't think anybody has broken any rules in nominating Hustruck for the HoS. I personally don't think the vote was itself invalid or against the rules. What is happening here is harder than that. What is happening here is a bigger difference in views of what are properly HoS worthy offenses.

 

I think we are in fact arguing about the spirit of the rules.

 

For myself, I'm not that far along. My own personal reservations have always been about wanting to see certain evidence posted, before I cast my vote. I have not in fact voted yet, and I guess I will not as it stands now.

 

If the vote should be revived at some point, I will still wait to see the communications posted before I vote.

 

 

You PMed them both correct?

 

4comix has already posted above to say that he will attempt to retrieve messages. The other Board member who posted earlier, Phoking, I have contacted via PM, but he has said to me that he deleted the original messages, and beyond that I will not presume to speak for him obviously. He did outline his experience in an earlier post, which I can post here again if it is thought helpful.

 

I have not tried to contact Hustruck, and on this point I am with the majority, that his silence speaks volumes for his contempt. I assume he is reading everything already.

[CGCboy]

When I wrote I refuse to cancel the transaction for any reason, I meant before or after a deal was made. If you did not know that is what I meant, that is what I meant. I should not be on the PL list because of something that was out of my control.

I never told 4comix that was the book or that I took that picture. I told him I never took a picture of the book and used that picture as an example of the damage.

People have canceled on me after a deal was made I didn't make a big deal about it.

I never used stolen photos I was given permission my the seller to use those pictures before I got the book.

I never stole from anyone or even tried to.

About 7 times I offered to give 4comix the next one I got to make it up to him if he was mad about what happened.

I also don't know why I'm on the hos, I never scammed anyone and when I was accused of it I canceled and relisted everything just to prove a point.

I was never given any chance to rectify any problem, even though I offered to.

I admit I was selling this book before I had it in hand but that is the extent of it. I never thought there would be a problem because I had sent payment and was waiting for the book.

If you will not accept the condition in my thread to absolve me of this then tell me what I have to do to get off the PL and HOS and I will do it.

I am not the person toy guys are painting me out to be and I care a lot about this community and my reputation here.

[4comix]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

do we need more?

[A.Romeo]

When I wrote I refuse to cancel the transaction for any reason, I meant before or after a deal was made. If you did not know that is what I meant, that is what I meant. I should not be on the PL list because of something that was out of my control.

I never told 4comix that was the book or that I took that picture. I told him I never took a picture of the book and used that picture as an example of the damage.

People have canceled on me after a deal was made I didn't make a big deal about it.

I never used stolen photos I was given permission my the seller to use those pictures before I got the book.

I never stole from anyone or even tried to.

About 7 times I offered to give 4comix the next one I got to make it up to him if he was mad about what happened.

I also don't know why I'm on the hos, I never scammed anyone and when I was accused of it I canceled and relisted everything just to prove a point.

I was never given any chance to rectify any problem, even though I offered to.

I admit I was selling this book before I had it in hand but that is the extent of it. I never thought there would be a problem because I had sent payment and was waiting for the book.

If you will not accept the condition in my thread to absolve me of this then tell me what I have to do to get off the PL and HOS and I will do it.

I am not the person toy guys are painting me out to be and I care a lot about this community and my reputation here.

 

you are not the victim here.

[A.Romeo]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

do we need more?

 

Anyone who uses bro that often shouldn't be trusted

 

[Ryan.]

Incidentally, I sent a book to be reslabbed last month and had it back in hand in less than two weeks.

[jaybuck43]

Folks I know that my post will be crushed in the trample now that Hustruck has returned.

 

I've created a post in CG for discussion on the question of whether the PL and HoS rules need to be revisited. Could we move the discussion (in general, not the discussion regarding specifically to Hustruck) to that thread and leave this one for PL and HoS nomination discussions?

[cloud cloddie]

When I wrote I refuse to cancel the transaction for any reason, I meant before or after a deal was made. If you did not know that is what I meant, that is what I meant. I should not be on the PL list because of something that was out of my control.

I never told 4comix that was the book or that I took that picture. I told him I never took a picture of the book and used that picture as an example of the damage.

People have canceled on me after a deal was made I didn't make a big deal about it.

I never used stolen photos I was given permission my the seller to use those pictures before I got the book.

I never stole from anyone or even tried to.

About 7 times I offered to give 4comix the next one I got to make it up to him if he was mad about what happened.

I also don't know why I'm on the hos, I never scammed anyone and when I was accused of it I canceled and relisted everything just to prove a point.

I was never given any chance to rectify any problem, even though I offered to.

I admit I was selling this book before I had it in hand but that is the extent of it. I never thought there would be a problem because I had sent payment and was waiting for the book.

If you will not accept the condition in my thread to absolve me of this then tell me what I have to do to get off the PL and HOS and I will do it.

I am not the person toy guys are painting me out to be and I care a lot about this community and my reputation here.

 

The messages 4comix just posted seem to contradict that

[wombat]

I'm getting confused. I thought the message that was posted from the ebay seller said he never sent the book because of the shady attempts to pay for it.

[cloud cloddie]

I'm getting confused. I thought the message that was posted from the ebay seller said he never sent the book because of the shady attempts to pay for it.

 

It did.

More lies upon lies

[HarveySwick]

I'm getting confused. I thought the message that was posted from the ebay seller said he never sent the book because of the shady attempts to pay for it.

Correct. The eBay seller cancelled the sale on eBay based on HusTruck's shady actions with regards to payment. There's no indication the seller was a Boardie and knew anything about HusTruck's reputation here. Those pictures didn't come from the seller - there was nothing wrong with the book.

 

Edited January 12, 2015 by HarveySwick

[jaybuck43]

Justin:

The seller is not a boardie. He had never even heard about the boards. He did not know Hassan at all and knew nothing about his reputation. He canceled the sale for the reasons I shared in the message I posted earlier (as you're aware). At no point was the book in HusTruck's possession and he knows this because he asked the seller to ship it directly to someone else (it's one of the reasons why the seller canceled).

 

Separate question, not sure if anyone else caught this. Did hustruck submarine the deal (i.e. intentionally cause issues to the eBay seller) to get out of the deal after he saw he was going to lose money on the flip. If you'll note his deal with 4Comix is probably for $1,850 (as stated by his text of "I doubt you'll hold 1850 for 2 months", I assume that is referring to the purchase price, 4comix please confirm the agreed on purchase price) but the eBay sale was for 2175 (or something around that, I can find the exact price and edit this later) which would have meant taking a $325 loss.

[Hado]

One member is allowed to post a message in a sales thread that the seller is on the P/L or HOS.

 

That should let buyers know they need to do some research. You don't need to flood their sales threads to keep people safe.

 

I'm ok with someone posting once in a sales thread to warn others.

 

In a repeat offender case I would say even if they currently aren't on a list, there should be allowed to be one post made that the person has been on the list more than once.

Like a warning that the seller has had numerous deals have snags.

 

Interesting.

 

What if someone had a few PL appearances, but then learned what is expected of them an cleaned up their act, would it still be necessary for the warning to be issued?

 

That's a tough call because if you put a time limit on it the scam artist could just lay low for a few months until they outside the probation period. I think if your on more than once its free game forever. You don't get into business transactions unless you can complete said transactions plain and simple. With only having a Kudos thread where you can't put negative feedback how else can people be made aware that this person has a history. Especially if their name isn't on the PL or HOS list at the time. It's way to easy for scammers to get away with things on here with the current rules.

Forevers a long time.

 

So my first two sales threads, just say I'm tardy on shipping, then a book isn't as described and I find myself on the PL twice. I make good and remove myself from the list, then have several years with stellar sales and no issues whatsoever.

 

If someone doesn't like me, they can post in my sales threads I was a repeat offender on the PL?

 

I see what your saying but if your a stand up person you probably don't have to worry about someone going out of their way to post that you are a multiple PL offender. Maybe put a year probation period on it?

True that if you're just a good seller, or poster there shouldn't be any issues. Which is what everyone should strive for.

 

I do like this idea, Forevers just too long. (Thumbs u