PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

Moral dilemma: do I disclose trimming on a book that was undisclosed if I'm not the seller?

 

I checked with mod Architecht, and he suggested that I post my dilemma in this thread, and let the community decide what action to take.

 

Some months ago, I met a user on these boards to view some books for sale. By the pictures that were sent to me, I detected trimming on one of them. When I saw the books, I was certain there was trimming. I told him there was trimming, and he resigned himself to the fact that he'd overpaid for the book. He wasn't ready to sell at the restored price, so he kept it.

 

Fast forward to now. The user put up his books for sale, and the trimmed book was one of the offerings. Pictures in the thread were large, and no grade was given. I PMed him to ask if he'd disclose in the thread that the book was trimmed. He replied that it wasn't trimmed at all. I PMed one of the sellers on the boards who I've dealt with before, and he confirmed that the book appears to be trimmed. The book has since sold, and I feel terrible.

 

The boards seem like a place of full disclosure and good faith. Do I have the right to PM the buyer and warn him that he bought a trimmed book? Do I have the obligation to tell him, or should the buyer beware? Maybe he knows and bought it anyway. I just don't know.

 

What should I do?

 

I think this is a grey area.

 

I have no idea what your detection skills are, but in my experience most people get it wrong. Even with the book in hand it's difficult to determine. Shrinkage and other factors have confused many people.

 

Even if we assume that it is 100% trimmed, the seller may have taken it to someone he believes to be an expert, who decided that in his opinion it isn't trimmed. This happens all the time. So I don't think you can necessarily assume something nefarious on the part of the seller.

 

One thing is certain. If you PM the buyer and tell him that the book is trimmed, unless he has excellent detection skills on a par with CGC, he's probably going to see trimming as well. It's human nature.

[Balham's Finest]

Moral dilemma: do I disclose trimming on a book that was undisclosed if I'm not the seller?

 

I checked with mod Architecht, and he suggested that I post my dilemma in this thread, and let the community decide what action to take.

 

Some months ago, I met a user on these boards to view some books for sale. By the pictures that were sent to me, I detected trimming on one of them. When I saw the books, I was certain there was trimming. I told him there was trimming, and he resigned himself to the fact that he'd overpaid for the book. He wasn't ready to sell at the restored price, so he kept it.

 

Fast forward to now. The user put up his books for sale, and the trimmed book was one of the offerings. Pictures in the thread were large, and no grade was given. I PMed him to ask if he'd disclose in the thread that the book was trimmed. He replied that it wasn't trimmed at all. I PMed one of the sellers on the boards who I've dealt with before, and he confirmed that the book appears to be trimmed. The book has since sold, and I feel terrible.

 

The boards seem like a place of full disclosure and good faith. Do I have the right to PM the buyer and warn him that he bought a trimmed book? Do I have the obligation to tell him, or should the buyer beware? Maybe he knows and bought it anyway. I just don't know.

 

What should I do?

 

I think this is a grey area.

 

I have no idea what your detection skills are, but in my experience most people get it wrong. Even with the book in hand it's difficult to determine. Shrinkage and other factors have confused many people.

 

Even if we assume that it is 100% trimmed, the seller may have taken it to someone he believes to be an expert, who decided that in his opinion it isn't trimmed. This happens all the time. So I don't think you can necessarily assume something nefarious on the part of the seller.

 

One thing is certain. If you PM the buyer and tell him that the book is trimmed, unless he has excellent detection skills on a par with CGC, he's probably going to see trimming as well. It's human nature.

 

I agree this is a grey area. But if you tell the buyer, and he goes back to the seller, there's no guarantee it will get him anywhere. It's dangerous to assume you're 100% right about the trimming. The point made above is correct - for all you know, the seller got worried after talking to you, went and got an expert second opinion and was told the book was not trimmed.

 

Here's a related question:

 

If you buy a book on the boards, on the basis of a scan and with no guarantee that it is not trimmed, then send it to CGC and it comes back restored, what do you do? Let's assume you go back to the seller and he says that he honestly didn't know it was trimmed. Would you still expect a refund?

 

[Ryan.]

If you buy a book on the boards, on the basis of a scan and with no guarantee that it is not trimmed, then send it to CGC and it comes back restored, what do you do? Let's assume you go back to the seller and he says that he honestly didn't know it was trimmed. Would you still expect a refund?

 

I was in a semi-similar situation, in which I bought a book, got it graded, and it came back restored. It was a pricey book. I PMed the seller to let him know but did not demand that he refund me. I figured that was the risk of buying comics raw. The seller happened to be an abnormally standup guy and said he would refund all my expenses to the penny. I thought about it and took him up on the refund. The whole situation was unfortunate but I did not actually expect him to toss me that complete refund. He volunteered on his own. So I suppose my feeling would be to make the seller aware, put the onus on him/her to offer a refund, and use this to at least begin a conversation. Then decide accordingly what should be done about it. If the seller seems sincere then work out a mutually satisfying agreement. If the seller shrugs and says, "Whatevs. Your loss." Then nominate them for the PL. Ironically, I wish I had just kept the restored book I sent back. It's worth double now what I paid for it, even with the resto.

[FineCollector]

Thanks to everyone so far who has answered.

 

No, I'm not an expert in detection, which is why I didn't post it openly. I think it's a pretty sure thing, though. I don't want to post the book here or in the Grading Forum because even the back cover is fairly distinctive. We have a number of seasoned dealers on the boards, but is anyone recognized as an expert who can look and assess?

[Speedy-D]

Moral dilemma: do I disclose trimming on a book that was undisclosed if I'm not the seller?

 

I checked with mod Architecht, and he suggested that I post my dilemma in this thread, and let the community decide what action to take.

 

Some months ago, I met a user on these boards to view some books for sale. By the pictures that were sent to me, I detected trimming on one of them. When I saw the books, I was certain there was trimming. I told him there was trimming, and he resigned himself to the fact that he'd overpaid for the book. He wasn't ready to sell at the restored price, so he kept it.

 

Fast forward to now. The user put up his books for sale, and the trimmed book was one of the offerings. Pictures in the thread were large, and no grade was given. I PMed him to ask if he'd disclose in the thread that the book was trimmed. He replied that it wasn't trimmed at all. I PMed one of the sellers on the boards who I've dealt with before, and he confirmed that the book appears to be trimmed. The book has since sold, and I feel terrible.

 

The boards seem like a place of full disclosure and good faith. Do I have the right to PM the buyer and warn him that he bought a trimmed book? Do I have the obligation to tell him, or should the buyer beware? Maybe he knows and bought it anyway. I just don't know.

 

What should I do?

 

I think this is a grey area.

 

I have no idea what your detection skills are, but in my experience most people get it wrong. Even with the book in hand it's difficult to determine. Shrinkage and other factors have confused many people.

 

Even if we assume that it is 100% trimmed, the seller may have taken it to someone he believes to be an expert, who decided that in his opinion it isn't trimmed. This happens all the time. So I don't think you can necessarily assume something nefarious on the part of the seller.

 

One thing is certain. If you PM the buyer and tell him that the book is trimmed, unless he has excellent detection skills on a par with CGC, he's probably going to see trimming as well. It's human nature.

You can try to parse people's motivations, but chances are you'll get it wrong. If you suspect that someone has bought a restored comic and doesn't know it, I don't see any reason not to mention it to them. I'd be grateful if someone did that for me.

[JazzMan]

If you buy a book on the boards, on the basis of a scan and with no guarantee that it is not trimmed, then send it to CGC and it comes back restored, what do you do? Let's assume you go back to the seller and he says that he honestly didn't know it was trimmed. Would you still expect a refund?

 

I was in a semi-similar situation, in which I bought a book, got it graded, and it came back restored. It was a pricey book. I PMed the seller to let him know but did not demand that he refund me. I figured that was the risk of buying comics raw. The seller happened to be an abnormally standup guy and said he would refund all my expenses to the penny. I thought about it and took him up on the refund. The whole situation was unfortunate but I did not actually expect him to toss me that complete refund. He volunteered on his own. So I suppose my feeling would be to make the seller aware, put the onus on him/her to offer a refund, and use this to at least begin a conversation. Then decide accordingly what should be done about it. If the seller seems sincere then work out a mutually satisfying agreement. If the seller shrugs and says, "Whatevs. Your loss." Then nominate them for the PL. Ironically, I wish I had just kept the restored book I sent back. It's worth double now what I paid for it, even with the resto.

 

I had a similar experience. I purchased a book and when I got it I suspected that it was trimmed. I told the seller immediately and he offered a full refund. I told him I'd send it off on my nickel to CGC to confirm and that if it was confirmed trimmed that I could return it for a refund - he gladly agreed to that. It came back trimmed and he agreed to the refund. I ended up having a buyer for the book the day it arrived, but the customer service from the seller was stellar and it would be the same way that I would conduct myself.

[FineCollector]

Thanks to all who've answered, but there isn't a consensus here, so I'm going to stay out of the other boardie's deal. Despite my confidence, I can't guarantee anything, and I'd hate to set a precedent where people derail threads by screaming "trimmed" without proof. The seller isn't particularly active, but the buyer is, so I'm just going to hope he has the expertise to spot the trimming.

[mrwoogieman]

Thanks to all who've answered, but there isn't a consensus here, so I'm going to stay out of the other boardie's deal. Despite my confidence, I can't guarantee anything, and I'd hate to set a precedent where people derail threads by screaming "trimmed" without proof. The seller isn't particularly active, but the buyer is, so I'm just going to hope he has the expertise to spot the trimming.

 

Did you get any PMs from people asking if they were the buyer you were referencing? Have you heard from the seller since posting in this thread?

 

 

[Jimmy Linguini]

Did you pay him? Have you sent him the PM saying you've put his name up here?

 

He started a selling thread saying "go to my website".

 

I went to his website and sent him this message,

 

"Hi Matthew!

 

I noticed you post on the CGC Boards. I was given a copy of your book from a friend who bought it in Chicago. I like it. I would be interested in buying 10 copies of the variant if possible. When I try to buy them on the Ashcanpress website it charges $30 shipping for 6 books to Canada - is there anyway to get a lower shipping cost?

 

And - are there copies signed by Ghostface Killah available?

 

/ Jimmy Linguini on the CGC Boards "

 

He said

 

"Hey Alex,

 

Thanks for writing. Yeah, the webstore shipping stuff has some kinks in it. I set aside 10 books for you and I will figure out what shipping is on them and get back to you this weekend. Do you have a paypal account and we can just do it that way? Let me know. And thanks so much man.-Matthew"

 

The book I was to buy 10 of for $10 each, now sells for $50 to $70 and his website says sold out.

You have to send him a PM saying that he is being nominated to the PL, and if he doesn't respond in the appropriate time, then he goes on.

 

I doubt he is going to care, or be back, but that is what it is.

 

I sent an e-mail to Matthew two days ago about my intet to put him on the PL and how I will not support any books from his publisher. Can he now be added to the PL?

[miraclemet]

Did you pay him? Have you sent him the PM saying you've put his name up here?

 

He started a selling thread saying "go to my website".

 

I went to his website and sent him this message,

 

"Hi Matthew!

 

I noticed you post on the CGC Boards. I was given a copy of your book from a friend who bought it in Chicago. I like it. I would be interested in buying 10 copies of the variant if possible. When I try to buy them on the Ashcanpress website it charges $30 shipping for 6 books to Canada - is there anyway to get a lower shipping cost?

 

And - are there copies signed by Ghostface Killah available?

 

/ Jimmy Linguini on the CGC Boards "

 

He said

 

"Hey Alex,

 

Thanks for writing. Yeah, the webstore shipping stuff has some kinks in it. I set aside 10 books for you and I will figure out what shipping is on them and get back to you this weekend. Do you have a paypal account and we can just do it that way? Let me know. And thanks so much man.-Matthew"

 

The book I was to buy 10 of for $10 each, now sells for $50 to $70 and his website says sold out.

You have to send him a PM saying that he is being nominated to the PL, and if he doesn't respond in the appropriate time, then he goes on.

 

I doubt he is going to care, or be back, but that is what it is.

 

I sent an e-mail to Matthew two days ago about my intet to put him on the PL and how I will not support any books from his publisher. Can he now be added to the PL?

 

Check the rules JL:

2) Notification on the Probation Discussion Thread

a) After the 30 Day Rule is fulfilled, the accuser will send a PM to the accused informing them the issue is being submitted to the Probation Discussion Thread for their inclusion in the PL. CHECK

 

3) Being Placed On The PL

a) After a 72-hour waiting period, if the accused does not respond they will be placed on the PL.

 

b) If the accused responds in the Probation Discussion Thread and it is determined the conditions of the transaction was not met, they will be added to the PL.

 

c) If the accused is not available during that 72-hour period and is placed on the PL, they are free to later respond in the Probation Discussion Thread and present their side.

 

d) If the accused has not responded in the Probation Discussion Thread but continues to post on the boards, a reply can be made informing them they are being considered for placement on the PL.

 

 

so long and short, 3 day waiting period. Has it been 72 hrs yet?

[FineCollector]

Did you get any PMs from people asking if they were the buyer you were referencing? Have you heard from the seller since posting in this thread?

 

 

Nope, not a word. If a dispute is posted at a later date, I'll chime in, but for now, it's not my business.

[Jimmy Linguini]

Did you pay him? Have you sent him the PM saying you've put his name up here?

 

He started a selling thread saying "go to my website".

 

I went to his website and sent him this message,

 

"Hi Matthew!

 

I noticed you post on the CGC Boards. I was given a copy of your book from a friend who bought it in Chicago. I like it. I would be interested in buying 10 copies of the variant if possible. When I try to buy them on the Ashcanpress website it charges $30 shipping for 6 books to Canada - is there anyway to get a lower shipping cost?

 

And - are there copies signed by Ghostface Killah available?

 

/ Jimmy Linguini on the CGC Boards "

 

He said

 

"Hey Alex,

 

Thanks for writing. Yeah, the webstore shipping stuff has some kinks in it. I set aside 10 books for you and I will figure out what shipping is on them and get back to you this weekend. Do you have a paypal account and we can just do it that way? Let me know. And thanks so much man.-Matthew"

 

The book I was to buy 10 of for $10 each, now sells for $50 to $70 and his website says sold out.

You have to send him a PM saying that he is being nominated to the PL, and if he doesn't respond in the appropriate time, then he goes on.

 

I doubt he is going to care, or be back, but that is what it is.

 

I sent an e-mail to Matthew two days ago about my intet to put him on the PL and how I will not support any books from his publisher. Can he now be added to the PL?

 

Check the rules JL:

2) Notification on the Probation Discussion Thread

a) After the 30 Day Rule is fulfilled, the accuser will send a PM to the accused informing them the issue is being submitted to the Probation Discussion Thread for their inclusion in the PL. CHECK

 

3) Being Placed On The PL

a) After a 72-hour waiting period, if the accused does not respond they will be placed on the PL.

 

b) If the accused responds in the Probation Discussion Thread and it is determined the conditions of the transaction was not met, they will be added to the PL.

 

c) If the accused is not available during that 72-hour period and is placed on the PL, they are free to later respond in the Probation Discussion Thread and present their side.

 

d) If the accused has not responded in the Probation Discussion Thread but continues to post on the boards, a reply can be made informing them they are being considered for placement on the PL.

 

 

so long and short, 3 day waiting period. Has it been 72 hrs yet?

 

No. I'll give him until wednesday at 12:00, which is like five days.

[Beige]

Why?

What's the point?

The guy sold out of books. You didn't send any cash - no harm, no foul.

I'm sure not having an obscure 'comic' signed by 'Ghostface killah' (wooooo scary!) will be a terrible blight on your full and active working life, but I can see no reason at all why this is PL worthy.

As if the guy will be back - this isn't, you aside, his normal 14yr old girls market.

What is Matthew supposed to have done wrong - there's only your unreliable word that they were $10 each.

Move on.

[seanfingh]

Why?

What's the point?

The guy sold out of books. You didn't send any cash - no harm, no foul.

I'm sure not having an obscure 'comic' signed by 'Ghostface killah' (wooooo scary!) will be a terrible blight on your full and active working life, but I can see no reason at all why this is PL worthy.

As if the guy will be back - this isn't, you aside, his normal 14yr old girls market.

What is Matthew supposed to have done wrong - there's only your unreliable word that they were $10 each.

Move on.

 

If it's not a big deal, why don't you paypal him the $400 that he lost by not getting the deal? The guy showed up on the Boards pumping his wares, and didn't complete the deal. That makes him eligible for the PL. Now that nomination has about as much substance as a popcorn fart, as he will likely never be back.

 

The rules work the same way for everyone, despite your raging Jimmy Linguiniii boner.

[FineCollector]

Why?

What's the point?

The guy sold out of books. You didn't send any cash - no harm, no foul.

 

I believe the nomination has merit.

 

As much as I'd like to say that there was no tangible commitment to buy said books, the seller said he'd set them aside. That's acknowledgement that the seller is selling to Jimmy, and presumably pulled them from his selling stock. If the shoe was on the other foot, and Jimmy backed out, the seller would be justified in saying he lost potential sales while the books were set aside.

[bababooey]

I think in these unfulfilled order - PL situations where damages are based on market value changes there needs to be some standard rules where a damage amount is being "locked in" to be fair to both parties.

- If the book tanks in the future and becomes a dollar book the guy can't get off by fulfilling the order - he "has" to reimburse for damages.

- If the book goes up in value, the damages don't increase.

 

So I guess the damages are based on what JL could sell them for now but I don't know if anything exists that supports $50-70/book.

 

I see one sold yesterday on ebay BIN for 39.99 and an auction ended w/1 bid @ $29.99

Auction $29.99

 

I'd say the lock in number per book is somewhere between those two sales unless Jimmy's got something else to support a higher price.

 

[Balham's Finest]

If you buy a book on the boards, on the basis of a scan and with no guarantee that it is not trimmed, then send it to CGC and it comes back restored, what do you do? Let's assume you go back to the seller and he says that he honestly didn't know it was trimmed. Would you still expect a refund?

 

I was in a semi-similar situation, in which I bought a book, got it graded, and it came back restored. It was a pricey book. I PMed the seller to let him know but did not demand that he refund me. I figured that was the risk of buying comics raw. The seller happened to be an abnormally standup guy and said he would refund all my expenses to the penny. I thought about it and took him up on the refund. The whole situation was unfortunate but I did not actually expect him to toss me that complete refund. He volunteered on his own. So I suppose my feeling would be to make the seller aware, put the onus on him/her to offer a refund, and use this to at least begin a conversation. Then decide accordingly what should be done about it. If the seller seems sincere then work out a mutually satisfying agreement. If the seller shrugs and says, "Whatevs. Your loss." Then nominate them for the PL. Ironically, I wish I had just kept the restored book I sent back. It's worth double now what I paid for it, even with the resto.

 

What would be your basis for recommendation to the PL? Do you assume that in the absence of a statement that a book is restored/trimmed, every raw book sold on the boards is guaranteed by the seller to be unrestored?

 

I'm not necessarily saying you'd be wrong to nominate, but interested in the thinking.

[Ryan.]

Do you assume that in the absence of a statement that a book is restored/trimmed, every raw book sold on the boards is guaranteed by the seller to be unrestored?

 

Yes, I do. You don't?

[Speedy-D]

If you buy a book on the boards, on the basis of a scan and with no guarantee that it is not trimmed, then send it to CGC and it comes back restored, what do you do? Let's assume you go back to the seller and he says that he honestly didn't know it was trimmed. Would you still expect a refund?

 

I was in a semi-similar situation, in which I bought a book, got it graded, and it came back restored. It was a pricey book. I PMed the seller to let him know but did not demand that he refund me. I figured that was the risk of buying comics raw. The seller happened to be an abnormally standup guy and said he would refund all my expenses to the penny. I thought about it and took him up on the refund. The whole situation was unfortunate but I did not actually expect him to toss me that complete refund. He volunteered on his own. So I suppose my feeling would be to make the seller aware, put the onus on him/her to offer a refund, and use this to at least begin a conversation. Then decide accordingly what should be done about it. If the seller seems sincere then work out a mutually satisfying agreement. If the seller shrugs and says, "Whatevs. Your loss." Then nominate them for the PL. Ironically, I wish I had just kept the restored book I sent back. It's worth double now what I paid for it, even with the resto.

 

What would be your basis for recommendation to the PL? Do you assume that in the absence of a statement that a book is restored/trimmed, every raw book sold on the boards is guaranteed by the seller to be unrestored?

 

I'm not necessarily saying you'd be wrong to nominate, but interested in the thinking.

Definitely not. I know I don't have the detection skills to guarantee anything about trimming. But if someone knows a comic is trimmed they need to say so. If they have reason to suspect ... it's hard to say, but it'd be cool if they mentioned that too.

[Ryan.]

Definitely not. I know I don't have the detection skills to guarantee anything about trimming.

 

If you sell a book and it comes back trimmed, and the seller brings it to your attention, how do you react?