tth2's trip down memory lane

[JLA Brad]

interesting...

 

so pedigree trumps a lot.

 

What about a Pacific Coast at 9.4 with off white pages vs. a 9.8 with white pages?

 

Same price.

 

??

[frozentundraguy]

The JLAs, and the PCs in particular, have generated a bit less interest than I expected, so I'll go ahead and wrap up the rest of the JLAs in one fell swoop.

 

First up is #35, a real fan favorite. Part of the Acesilver/private collector/Hanlin/PC OO set of books. The pale blue background looks fantastic in person.

 

 

 

Next up is a real personal favorite, if for no other reason than the fact that I won it raw on eBay from Roter/PCE way back in 2000 for the princely sum of $355. It was listed by Robert as something like NM+++, and it was as good as advertised. Actually, to be honest I thought it was going to get a 9.6 from CGC and was pleasantly surprised when it came back as a 9.8. Fortunately Roter didn't slab it otherwise he probably would've been asking $20K for it.

 

It's also a real personal favorite because it's such an incredibly difficult book to find in NM, ranking up there with 19, 22 and 29 among the later books. For a very long time, there was nothing above 9.2 in the Census except for this PC outlier. There is a PC double, but it was like a 9.0 or 8.5. Robert never could answer why he sold this copy instead of the lesser copy.

 

This one didn't pass through the Hanlin channel, so the other thing I like about this book is that it's got the shortest chain of ownership of any of my PCs--from the OO to Roter to me.

 

 

 

Last but not least is the PC #23, which I picked up in a trade with Josh Nathanson back in 2002. I never confirmed this, but I'm pretty sure it came through the Hanlin channel to the private collector, who had either traded or sold a few DCs to Josh. So a number of its brothers ended up eventually being reunited with it.

 

 

tth2,

 

Thanks for all of those great HG books and the background stories. Those latest JLA's generated interest all right, and left us all speechless.... for a while

 

 

Now if we just had a "magic lamp" and could make a wish.

[tth2]

Wow! Incredible - a 9.8 from 1963 that cost you only $355! But you know I can't see that it's in any better condition than the 9.6 JLAs you've been posting. Could you actually see the difference?

Like I said, I was only expecting a 9.6, although it was pretty much perfect. The other 9.6 JLAs were all slabbed already when I bought them, so I wasn`t able to subject them to the kind of scrutiny you can only do when a book is out of a slab or mylar. Obviously they all had straight edges, great corners and apparently unblemished spines, but still it`s hard to detect the kinds of defects that separate a 9.8 from a 9.6 through a slab.

[tth2]

A little off topic, but what are thoughts on this:

 

Is it better to have, say a Pacific Coast JLA#24 9.8 with off-white pages or a JLA#24 9.8 with white pages (no pedigree)? Does the pedigree offset the lower PQ?

 

That's assuming all other things (ie. centering) are about equal of course. I would have to go with the non-pedigree copy in the case above. Now, I just have to find one...

CGC`s PQ ratings are so random that I wouldn`t put that much stock into them. I do try to avoid books they`ve designated with cream pages, but that`s mostly because it hurts the marketability of the books since many collectors don`t want cream pages.

 

So I would probably take the PC, but really you`ve got to take eye appeal into account. The PCs have such good color and lustre, although having said that, in my opinion on average I would say Western Penns and Toths are more lustrous than the PCs.

[tth2]

[the new label 9.8 was probably massaged between the fat lady's thighs to achieve the grade

[chrisco37]

Tim -

 

When the PC books came to market and being sold raw, was there a significant markup (multiples) of the standard NM prices for the books ala church books?

 

You said you bought the 9.8 raw for $355. Was that a significant premium over guide at the time?

[tth2]

Tim -

 

When the PC books came to market and being sold raw, was there a significant markup (multiples) of the standard NM prices for the books ala church books?

The mark-up was HUGE for those pre-CGC times. If I recall, most of the Marvels were priced at 3-4X Guide. I definitely remember being stunned when I saw Roter's listed prices. This was why the initial take-up was pretty slow when the collection first surfaced, and only after in-person confirmation by some well-known collectors that the books were as good as advertised did other collectors start grabbing the books.

 

You said you bought the 9.8 raw for $355. Was that a significant premium over guide at the time?

Guide at the time was $105, so that means it went for around 3.4X. I remember feeling pretty irritated at having to pay so much.

[paperheart]

Tim -

 

When the PC books came to market and being sold raw, was there a significant markup (multiples) of the standard NM prices for the books ala church books?

The mark-up was HUGE for those pre-CGC times. If I recall, most of the Marvels were priced at 3-4X Guide. I definitely remember being stunned when I saw Roter's listed prices. This was why the initial take-up was pretty slow when the collection first surfaced, and only after in-person confirmation by some well-known collectors that the books were as good as advertised did other collectors start grabbing the books.

 

You said you bought the 9.8 raw for $355. Was that a significant premium over guide at the time?

Guide at the time was $105, so that means it went for around 3.4X. I remember feeling pretty irritated at having to pay so much.

 

these multiples were fairly consistent with what marnin had on the mass books iirc, 2.5-3x was the norm

[JLA Brad]

So I would probably take the PC, but really you`ve got to take eye appeal into account. The PCs have such good color and lustre, although having said that, in my opinion on average I would say Western Penns and Toths are more lustrous than the PCs

 

Since the Toths aren't a recognized pedigree, that means you'll forego a pedigree IF the non-pedigree is really a better looking book. Understandable, as you would want the best book you could get. However, most people seem to value the pedigree more. This is good if you are buying up HG issues, but bad if you are trying to sell them.

[tth2]

Tim -

 

When the PC books came to market and being sold raw, was there a significant markup (multiples) of the standard NM prices for the books ala church books?

The mark-up was HUGE for those pre-CGC times. If I recall, most of the Marvels were priced at 3-4X Guide. I definitely remember being stunned when I saw Roter's listed prices. This was why the initial take-up was pretty slow when the collection first surfaced, and only after in-person confirmation by some well-known collectors that the books were as good as advertised did other collectors start grabbing the books.

 

You said you bought the 9.8 raw for $355. Was that a significant premium over guide at the time?

Guide at the time was $105, so that means it went for around 3.4X. I remember feeling pretty irritated at having to pay so much.

 

these multiples were fairly consistent with what marnin had on the mass books iirc, 2.5-3x was the norm

You're right, but my recollection was that the PC multiples seemed to be even higher than the Mass multiples. Admittedly, both took my breath away. Maybe my perception at the time was shaped by the fact that the PC collection came out during a period of real weakness in the comic book market.

 

By way of comparison, during that late 90s/pre-CGC period, I bought a NM X-Men #1 from SNE for $10,500 (later graded as 9.4, but restored, by CGC), a NM TOS #39 from VIA for $6000 (later graded by CGC as 9.2) and a NM JIM #83 from Harley through Lauterbach (later graded by CGC as a 9.0). I thought all of those books were accurately graded by the dealers except for the JIM #83, and was disappointed that the TOS 39 didn't get a 9.4. VIA also sold the Bethlehem TOS #39 for $6500 (graded NM and later graded 9.4 by CGC) just before I purchased my copy. There was very little premium for those books, particularly considering that they were keys.

[tth2]

So I would probably take the PC, but really you`ve got to take eye appeal into account. The PCs have such good color and lustre, although having said that, in my opinion on average I would say Western Penns and Toths are more lustrous than the PCs

 

Since the Toths aren't a recognized pedigree, that means you'll forego a pedigree IF the non-pedigree is really a better looking book. Understandable, as you would want the best book you could get. However, most people seem to value the pedigree more. This is good if you are buying up HG issues, but bad if you are trying to sell them.

Just because the Toths aren't a pedigree recognized by CGC doesn't mean they're not a pedigree. In general, I would take a Toth over any CGC-recognized SA pedigree except Western Penn and Curator.

 

I similarly love the Golden States, which aren't a recognized pedigree. I was fortunate enough to buy a run of raw Sgt Furys from SNE when the collection first surfaced and they were fantastic. I got almost all 9.8s and 9.6s when I submitted them to CGC.

 

The market is divided on this issue. If you go into General, you'll find a thousand threads on the topic of pedigree vs. non-pedigree.

[tth2]

Continuing on, here are some non-PC JLAs.

 

First up is JLA #33, which is a fairly difficult book to find in NM. I call this my "found money" book because I have absolutely no recollection of buying it and had completely forgotten I had it until I started pulling my JLAs out to consign to Heritage and was pleasantly surprised to find it. Just several months before that, I had been disappointed when I came up short trying to buy another 9.6 copy that was on auction! My records showed that I purchased it in 2006 but not from auction or any major dealer, but in a private deal with Philip Thomas, or bigtimecomics, which rings absolutely no bells with me.

 

 

 

The next book is a real fan favorite, and a personal favorite, as it was part of a JSA cross-over storyline and not only featured Earth 2, but Earth 3 and its villainous counterparts. The JSA cross-overs are my favorite JLA stories by far.

 

The strange thing about this book is that it's relatively common in high grade, whereas part 1 of the storyline, JLA #29, is one of the absolutely toughest books to find in high grade. One of those strange facts that just can't be explained.

 

Purchased from Bob Storm in 2004. Unfortunately, one of only 3 slabbed books that I've ever purchased from the Blazing One, since he was always more focused on Marvels. Another book that I purchased from him will be showing up later.

 

[JLA Brad]

Tim,

 

That JLA #30 is fantastic! A 9.6 in this issue is no mean feat! If this is the way your collection is going to roll out, I have no chance of ever matching the quality of your set.

 

With only 2 9.6s in the survey even to this day, this is pretty rare - although I guess there are quite a few 9.4s out there.

 

So Tim, were there any issues between 1-40 that you didn't have in high grade?

[innocuous]

The colors look amazing on the 30.

[JLA_ALL_THE_WAY]

Thanks Rick. And don't worry, of course I'll be gentle. I won't mention the raw NM B&B 28 that you sold to Metro once!

 

 

You heartless bass tar d

 

Rick

 

[tth2]

Tim,

 

That JLA #30 is fantastic! A 9.6 in this issue is no mean feat! If this is the way your collection is going to roll out, I have no chance of ever matching the quality of your set.

 

With only 2 9.6s in the survey even to this day, this is pretty rare - although I guess there are quite a few 9.4s out there.

For a while, all the dealers knew me as the weirdo who didn't like Marvels and was willing to spend crazy money for their 9.4 and better SA DCs that no normal collector (ie, Marvel collector) wanted, so they all came to me and I often got first dibs. It helps that I have the kind of personality that tends to toot one's own horn.

 

So Tim, were there any issues between 1-40 that you didn't have in high grade?

If I don't post it in this thread, it means I didn't own it (in high grade or at all). There were a LOT of holes in my collection, which is why some people think my collection was pretty lame, because the holes dwarfed the, uh, stuff. Completion-ism is something I (or any collector of HG early SA DCs) could only dream about.

[JLA Brad]

Tim,

 

If the JLA#33 was your "found money" book because you couldn't recall buying it - you must've been buying WAAAAY too many books at that time!

[Hepcat]

For a while, all the dealers knew me as the weirdo who didn't like Marvels and was willing to spend crazy money for their 9.4 and better SA DCs that no normal collector (ie, Marvel collector) wanted, so they all came to me and I often got first dibs.

 

High grade early Silver Age DCs are so tough to find that I'm very glad that only the few, the proud, collect them. I've been beating my head against the wall for over thirty years trying to find nice ones to complete my runs.

 

[tth2]

Tim,

 

If the JLA#33 was your "found money" book because you couldn't recall buying it - you must've been buying WAAAAY too many books at that time!

I'm honestly still scratching my head about that one. My memory is generally pretty good about acquisitions, and I genuinely have no memory of ever buying it! When I pulled out my box of JLAs to pack them up for shipment, I was literally like when I came across it. I then spent a while poring through old records, invoices, etc. trying to figure out when and who I bought it from. Even when I found a receipt, I was still like

[tth2]

I realized I skipped the #32 when I went to the #30, but perhaps it's appropriate that I post the #32 and #28 together today, since they, along with #18 and #41, are by far the most common earlier JLAs in NM or higher.

 

#28 has experienced a bizarre resurgence in price in recent years, which doesn't make sense at all since it's as common as dirt in 9.6, let alone 9.4. #32 does go for cheap and its price better reflects its abundance.

 

I bought the #32 from Metropolis, a fairly under-represented dealer in my collection, back in 2005. I also picked up the #28 in 2005, as one of Acesilver's books sold on Heritage.