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what is going on at heritage?

Started by james1768-migration,

186 posts in this topic

Moondog

Moondog

Posted
Posted
if I have said it once, I have said it 3.7 times...this kind of bidding is BAD for our hobby!
Why?
If it continues, it may give a buyer like myself an insecure feeling purchasing from an auction house.

So crazy, and possibly uniformed bidding undermines your faith in the auction system. I tend to agree with that, though I just step away from items that are going for stupid prices. Those silly bids have little affect on me personally. And we do tend to get excited about some sales prices that to the uninformed would seem silly, such as $2,000,000 for what is possibly the second or third best Action 1. The auction system itself is set up so whoever wants to pay the most for an item has ample opportunity.

So ultimately why is out-of-whack bidding a bad thing?

I believe this type of bidding causes some folks to "re think" their selling strategy...for example, because of a current heritage bid, a seller yesterday, can now want much more for a comparable book...thinking it is all of a sudden worth 3x, due to a crazy bid at an auction house (mind you, not a verified completed transaction, but a bid)... it inflates not only the auction copy, but in many cases (like someone pointed out today with an action on clink and like killercomics mentioned) other copies in the market...these inflated prices can slow potential buyers, and cause market stagnation...bad

 

it also takes some potential longer term collectors, and casts a very bad light on their purchases once they find out that they paid 10x FMV and can't even feel comfortable in recouping their purchase price... no matter how altruistic we want to be as collectors, anyone paying 10x market for a book is getting taken to the cleaners in a bad way...and that has to leave a bad taste in their mouth (and potentially others)...

 

it also can create the housing bubble analogy... we need steady and realistic price growth to maintain the health of our hobby...price stability is key in any market... in virtually all instances, these type of price variations hurt markets in both the short and longer term

 

Bob Overstreet has been saying this for 40 years.

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skybolt

skybolt

Posted
Posted

I think it would be nice for Heritage to come on these boards and give us an update as to what happened with these books 2 weeks after the auction ends. We don't have to know the specific details, but if someone on Heritage said "relax guys, we had a couple of people bidding on these books in question, and the winning bidder did make the payments. As you all know anything could happen in an auction format and books could sell for way more than expected, or sometimes for considerably less." This statement would put everyone's nerves at ease and just attribute the high prices to newbie bidders that will have a tough time selling these books in the future.

 

 

I will mention again that a few months ago I won an X-Men 1 8.5 auction for 13K (+BP) - a high enough price already - and before I got the book I had an offer on it for 25K. The offer stuck and I got my money. Never saw the book in hand. Not saying this to brag (I don't flip and when I do sell it is usually for a loss) - but to deliver info...

 

And that's terrific. The information you provided puts any questions someone may have had to rest, which is what we'd be expecting from Heritage, especially since they already a had retraction on the $108k All Flash #1 bid in this auction.

 

That being said, a HG X-Men #1 selling for 2 times or 1.5 times FMV raises a lot less eyebrows than a semi key Superman book in mid grade selling for 10 times FMV, especially when a higher graded copy is selling for way less somewhere else (as Nearmint pointed out). I think a higher graded (9.0) copy of X-Men #1 would sell for more than $25k, so your great sale still falls within the range for an 8.5 to 9.0 copy, and especially for a major key. Maybe the new buyer saw scans of your book and thought that it could be pressed into a higher grade.

 

Disagree - I think you can get a 9.0 for 25K, give or take a few grand. But 25K is a good deal over the going rate for an 8.5 (despite the 20K sale in 2011). I mean 16K maybe, but 25K? It's way over FMV IMO...

 

I didn't say it wasn't a good deal.....in fact it's a great deal. However, we are talking about a HG major key that perhaps is a potential pressing candidate into a higher grade by the new owner. The current 9.0 copy on Heritage is up to $24k ($29k with BP) before the live bidding begins. I currently own an 8.5 copy of X-Men #1 as well and am confident that the book will sell regularly for at least $25k 5 years from now. I highly doubt that a mid grade GA semi key Superman copy can sell at 10 times current FMV in that same time span.

 

 

More copies will hit the market and keep this comic around its current level in the

next 5 years.

 

I'm just basing my assumptions on past history. 8 years ago an X-Men #1 CGC 8.5 was only worth $7k. There's always demand for this book.

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Foolkiller

Foolkiller

Posted
Posted

I think it would be nice for Heritage to come on these boards and give us an update as to what happened with these books 2 weeks after the auction ends. We don't have to know the specific details, but if someone on Heritage said "relax guys, we had a couple of people bidding on these books in question, and the winning bidder did make the payments. As you all know anything could happen in an auction format and books could sell for way more than expected, or sometimes for considerably less." This statement would put everyone's nerves at ease and just attribute the high prices to newbie bidders that will have a tough time selling these books in the future.

 

 

I will mention again that a few months ago I won an X-Men 1 8.5 auction for 13K (+BP) - a high enough price already - and before I got the book I had an offer on it for 25K. The offer stuck and I got my money. Never saw the book in hand. Not saying this to brag (I don't flip and when I do sell it is usually for a loss) - but to deliver info...

 

Find this hard to believe

 

Like...you think I'm lying?

 

First, I'm quite certain you are not.

 

Second, you're not the only person this happened to on a major key from HA.

 

Third, I doubt HA is shilling whatsoever.

 

Fourth, I'm betting this isn't someone's investment strategy at all.

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lou_fine

lou_fine

Posted
Posted
Where is all that money coming from? My friends and I have been looking at the recovering real estate market. We've begun to notice there's been an influx of funds from China buying up properties "all cash offers" left and right. I'm starting to wonder if there might be overseas money involved buying up high grade GA.

 

I strongly doubt that it is money from the nouveau riche in China that is buying up all of these GA books.

 

Buying real estate has long been a tradition with the Chinese people and really a part of their culture and upbringing. If you ever have a conversation with any Chinese person, the topic will usually drift back to real estate sooner or later. Believe me, comic books is a completely different animal to them as compared to real estate.

 

Influx of funds from China (and Hong Kong before that) have been driving the local real estate market here for the past 20 years or so. This is the exact reason why real estate prices have gone up pretty well unabated over the last 8 years from the $400K range up to $1.5M for lot values on the west side of the city. If you have a new house on the lot, you are probably looking at a minimum of $2 or $3 million dollars to start.

 

In this neck of the woods at least, real estate is one of the few things that have outperformed the growth of investment quality comic books.

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Durden08

Durden08

Posted
Posted

A couple books that were talked about for their high selling prices are coming back to Heritage Auction soon ... the Little Archie #1 & the Action Comics #36. No mention of the prior sales in the archive.

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walclark

walclark

Posted
Posted

As the underbidder on a comic in the May auction, I recently got a call and two e-mails from Heritage to ask if I wanted the comic (the winning bidder was "unable to complete the transaction"). My underbid was at a fair value, so I accepted.

 

There was a little glitch, as they mistakenly billed me for the items I won outright in May (and had already paid for and received) plus the new item. A quick phone call straightened that out, but the shipping charges were kind of screwy. I haven't put pencil to paper, but it feels like I got overcharged on shipping. Not a huge deal, but it may illustrate that they don't have a real good procedure in place for handling this type of situation.

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skybolt

skybolt

Posted
Posted
The Superman #6 CGC 7. 0 is also back.

 

Ok, I'm a bit confused now. I thought Heritage notified a boardie that his book did sell and the winning bidder paid the amount. Looking at the Superman #7 relisting on Heritage, the prior $19k winning price is not shown anymore. The previous sale shown for this book is from February 2012 at a much lower $4,481 selling price. The $5,400 paid for the All Winners #2 CGC 5.0 copy has also been removed from past sales. So did these books sell or not? At this point I think we're back to square one trying to figure out how these and others books reached astronomical values. It takes at least 2 bidders to accomplish this! So whatever happened, it seems that someone was raising the prices on purpose. I'm totally confused now! :(

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VintageComics

VintageComics

Posted
Posted
Did someone get burned pimping prices and realize the market wasn't quite as hot as they thought.

 

It sounds like a winning bidder didn't come through.

 

I don't think anybody would pimp an auction to 3 times FMV.

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clarkkentdds

clarkkentdds

Posted
Posted

Actually EJR, I totally agree with you...

 

What happens to the winning bidders who had to bid and win against nonpaying/ fictional bids?

 

Aren't those winning bids a tad inflated since the underbid really wasn't legit?

 

I'd love to see Heritage contact those poor suckers who won and actually paid for the books and offer a discount... "We are sorry sir, but the underbidder was a deadbeat and thus inflated the price you had to pay"... I'm sure that will happen.

 

I'm tired of seeing these books magically appear again in consecutive auctions. The legit bidder who had to compete against these thrill bids loses; the auction house wins and the deadbeat bidder gets a slap on the wrist (and probably a Christmas card from Heritage.)

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rockman2008

rockman2008

Posted
Posted
Actually EJR, I totally agree with you...

 

What happens to the winning bidders who had to bid and win against nonpaying/ fictional bids?

 

Aren't those winning bids a tad inflated since the underbid really wasn't legit?

 

I'd love to see Heritage contact those poor suckers who won and actually paid for the books and offer a discount... "We are sorry sir, but the underbidder was a deadbeat and thus inflated the price you had to pay"... I'm sure that will happen.

 

I'm tired of seeing these books magically appear again in consecutive auctions. The legit bidder who had to compete against these thrill bids loses; the auction house wins and the deadbeat bidder gets a slap on the wrist (and probably a Christmas card employee paycheck from Heritage.)

 

FIXED.

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