Amazing 678 Mary Jane variant.... 2 2

[Real Elijah Snow]

I'll also say this. As far as older stuff goes I wouldn't touch pgx books with a ten foot pole for the restoration concerns, but you can get lucky sometimes on moderns. I would look very close at it as far as press/resub to cgc potential. Even if it only comes back a 9.6 you'll be better off.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Plus Spider-Man was a weak seller at the time, so the book itself was under-ordered. Coupled with the lack of any hyped storyline and merchant fatigue with ASM variants, and the fact that it was a 1:50 created a very short print run for the variant.

 

That isn't how print runs for allocated variants work. 1:XX has to do with allocation to retailers as a percentage of orders; it has little to do with the actual print run.

 

I suspect the print run was actually much closer to 2,000 than 500, based on Marvel's practice. 2,000 is still a tiny amount for a Spiderman book...maybe even scarce....but Spiderman #1 Platinum sold for $500 back in 1990, when it was 1 per store, period. After the additional cases that Marvel had were released to the market, the price took a pretty big nosedive.

 

The odds of a case of this specific book sitting in a warehouse somewhere are beyond remote.

 

The odds of a case of Primer #2 sitting in a warehouse were beyond remote...yet it happened, according to Joe Koch.

 

The book has been tough since Day One, and particularly tough in NM/M condition for the reasons Spidey78 mentioned.

 

Primer #2 has been tough since Day One, and particularly tough in NM/M condition, as it has a mostly black, thin, weak cover that shows every single flaw.

 

The book popped right away amongst die hards, but really took off when it gained a larger awareness in the general marketplace.

 

Hey, so did Primer #2!

 

I'm seeing fan recreated art, posters and prints of this thing now. It really is quite remarkable.

 

-J.

 

Fan recreated art....this is just a rework of the John Romita panel that is quite famous....it makes sense that there would be posters, prints, and the like, since the cover itself is an homage.

[Jaydogrules]

2000?

 

No way. The entire print run for the regular cover was only about 50,000, and Spider-man sales sucked at this time so there would be no reason for Marvel to over-print this particular variant. Furthermore, comparing this book, where the entire point of it is rarity (be it manufactured rarity, or otherwise) to any version of Spider-Man 1 and its million+ print run is absolutely nonsensical. As for the Primer 2 comparison- I see absolutely no relevant commonality or connection between the two books whatsoever. So Primer 2 had a small warehouse find. Who cares? That has nothing to do with this book.

 

More appropriate comparisons would be siege 3 and wolverine 1 (the Campbell variants). Both also have print runs estimated at around 500, and both were released within 18 months or so of this. As of now there are 132 wolverine 1's (52, 9.8's) and 102 siege 3's (61, 9.8's). Meanwhile there are currently 92 ASM 678's VenoMJ's (22, 9.8's), all consistent with a ~500 print run.

 

-J.

 

Edited May 20, 2015 by Jaydogrules

[RockMyAmadeus]

2000?

 

No way. The entire print run for the regular cover was only about 50,000, and Spider-man sales sucked at this time so there would be no reason for Marvel to over-print this particular variant.

 

The entire print run for the regular cover has nothing to do with the print run of any variant.

 

I don't have ANY information regarding the print run for this variant. However...what I do know, and what needs to be made clear, is that 1:XX are allocation numbers, not print run numbers.

 

And, I also know that, usually, print runs for variants are not generally less than 1,000, because anything lower than that, though of course possible, is not worth the effort for Marvel, DC, Image, etc.

 

Furthermore, comparing this book, where the entire point of it is rarity (be it manufactured rarity, or otherwise) to any version of Spider-Man 1 and its million+ print run is absolutely nonsensical.

 

There's really no need to be demeaning. Just because you don't agree with or understand the analogy, does not mean it is "absolutely nonsensical."

 

The print run of Platinum Spiderman had nothing whatsoever to do with the print run of the regular versions, so bringing up the regular version print runs is not relevant. The print run of Platinum Spiderman was 10,000....but at the beginning, and for many years afterwards, the prices were kept artificially high because Marvel sat on a good 3,000 of the copies, and stores only got a single copy...and the copies were distributed were distributed very, very widely.

 

Platinum Spiderman #1 was rare, too.

 

As for the Primer 2 comparison- I see absolutely no relevant commonality or connection between the two books whatsoever. So Primer 2 had a small warehouse find. Who cares? That has nothing to do with this book.

 

Well, I imagine people who want to own Primer #2 care. It's just an analogy, jay. The circumstances are similar, and anyone who says "oh, no, there's no warehouse copies of thus and such modern book" will be pointed to Primer #2.

 

If it can happen with Primer #2, 20 years after the fact, it can happen with any modern book.

 

More appropriate comparisons would be siege 3 and wolverine 1 (the Campbell variants). Both also have print runs estimated at around 500, and both were released within 18 months or so of this. As of now there are 132 wolverine 1's (52, 9.8's) and 102 siege 3's (61, 9.8's). Meanwhile there are currently 92 ASM 678's VenoMJ's (22, 9.8's), all consistent with a ~500 print run.

 

-J.

 

What do you base these numbers on?

 

Guesswork?

 

Since when does the census have anything whatsoever to do with the print run of any book? They have nothing to do with each other, and it is a comparison that simply cannot be made.

[Jaydogrules]

I find it ironic that in one thread you use the census to trumpet the "rarity" of ASM 301 (not a "rare" book in any grade, whatsoever), yet here, when an actually rare book is at issue, you essentially dismiss the census as meaningless. I'm not even sure what windmill you're tilting at this time because you are literally attempting to argue against all conventional wisdom when it comes to the actual and very real rarity of the 678. For a book you apparently resent so much, you sure can't seem to stop talking about it.

 

Anywho, this, and numerous other high dollar variants printed by Marvel, DC, and Image have estimated print runs of much less than 1000, with scarcity on both the census and the marketplace to support those estimates. And no, I am not going to take the time to list them (though I have already listed three from Marvel, including the 678). (thumbs u

 

-J.

[Jaydogrules]

I'll also say this. As far as older stuff goes I wouldn't touch pgx books with a ten foot pole for the restoration concerns, but you can get lucky sometimes on moderns. I would look very close at it as far as press/resub to cgc potential. Even if it only comes back a 9.6 you'll be better off.

 

+1

 

I usually expect to lose 1-2 grading increments going from PGX to CGC.

 

-J.

[Chip Cataldo]

I'll also say this. As far as older stuff goes I wouldn't touch pgx books with a ten foot pole for the restoration concerns, but you can get lucky sometimes on moderns. I would look very close at it as far as press/resub to cgc potential. Even if it only comes back a 9.6 you'll be better off.

 

+1

 

I usually expect to lose 1-2 grading increments going from PGX to CGC.

 

-J.

I'll check it out when it gets here as it's now definitely coming as part of a larger deal. I don't usually have moderns of this magnitude (or at all, really) so this information definitely helps. If I can't get it sold quickly I'll definitely look into a re-sub to CGC. I know PGX sucks nuts.

 

Thanks again for the info.

[N/A]

I find it ironic that in one thread you use the census to trumpet the "rarity" of ASM 301 (not a "rare" book in any grade, whatsoever), yet here, when an actually rare book is at issue, you essentially dismiss the census as meaningless. I'm not even sure what windmill you're tilting at this time because you are literally attempting to argue against all conventional wisdom when it comes to the actual and very real rarity of the 678. For a book you apparently resent so much, you sure can't seem to stop talking about it.

 

Anywho, this, and numerous other high dollar variants printed by Marvel, DC, and Image have estimated print runs of much less than 1000, with scarcity on both the census and the marketplace to support those estimates. And no, I am not going to take the time to list them (though I have already listed three from Marvel, including the 678). (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

If there was any doubt about who is drinking the Kool-aid it's all gone.

 

RMA actually offered some insight into standard practices which is much more convincing than how many are on eBay. Marvel used to have regular variant sales and will again. 1:50, 1:100 for $5 each.

 

Marvel, unlike Image, is not print to order. I personally had 3 that I sold in a $50? Longbox. I suspect they are still there. I'm a small fish.

[Jaydogrules]

I'll also say this. As far as older stuff goes I wouldn't touch pgx books with a ten foot pole for the restoration concerns, but you can get lucky sometimes on moderns. I would look very close at it as far as press/resub to cgc potential. Even if it only comes back a 9.6 you'll be better off.

 

+1

 

I usually expect to lose 1-2 grading increments going from PGX to CGC.

 

-J.

I'll check it out when it gets here as it's now definitely coming as part of a larger deal. I don't usually have moderns of this magnitude (or at all, really) so this information definitely helps. If I can't get it sold quickly I'll definitely look into a re-sub to CGC. I know PGX sucks nuts.

 

Thanks again for the info.

 

(thumbs u

 

Good luck.

 

-J.

[Chip Cataldo]

You don't think it would be better to crack it and sell it raw, would you?

[N/A]

And not disclose it was in a PGX 9.6 slab?

[Chip Cataldo]

And not disclose it was in a PGX 9.6 slab?

I would be grading it myself if I cracked it out. If I see there's no restoration or "foul play" and confirm the grade, why would I need to disclose that? I'm fine with removing the PGX stigma and taking responsibility for the grading myself since I do that with everything else I sell anyway.

[Jaydogrules]

Many people on these boards say that they essentially regard PGX graded books as raw anyway and pay accordingly.

 

As an example, here's a a PGX graded copy "9.8" that sold for half what a CGC 9.8 sold for privately on the boards recently:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2012-MARVEL-COMICS-AMAZING-SPIDER-MAN-678-VARIANT-PGX-9-8-LIKE-CGC-VERY-RARE-/351351522770?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51ce2ec5d2

 

Raw copies were going for between $1200-$1400ish at the same time.

 

-J.

 

 

[N/A]

And not disclose it was in a PGX 9.6 slab?

I would be grading it myself if I cracked it out. If I see there's no restoration or "foul play" and confirm the grade, why would I need to disclose that? I'm fine with removing the PGX stigma and taking responsibility for the grading myself since I do that with everything else I sell anyway.

 

I hear ya. Some would hope you'd disclose it but it's your business. Good luck!

[N/A]

You could probably just post scans here and wait for the PM's.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I find it ironic that in one thread you use the census to trumpet the "rarity" of ASM 301 (not a "rare" book in any grade, whatsoever), yet here, when an actually rare book is at issue, you essentially dismiss the census as meaningless.

 

I really wish you wouldn't mischaracterize what I say. I am not saying the census is meaningless at all, essentially or otherwise. I am saying you are using the census incorrectly.

 

I'm not even sure what windmill you're tilting at this time because you are literally attempting to argue against all conventional wisdom when it comes to the actual and very real rarity of the 678.

 

That's not accurate. Explanation below.

 

For a book you apparently resent so much, you sure can't seem to stop talking about it.

 

I've never said, nor given any indication whatsoever, that I resent this book in any way. I have no problem whatsoever with this book, and I shouldn't have to always explicitly spell these things out all the time. And even if someone did resent something, that doesn't mean they wouldn't talk about it. Lots of logical inconsistencies, here. But I digress.

 

Anywho, this, and numerous other high dollar variants printed by Marvel, DC, and Image have estimated print runs of much less than 1000,

 

As always, I am going to ask you for examples and proof of this claim.

 

with scarcity on both the census and the marketplace to support those estimates.

 

This statement is the very crux of the issue. You are misusing and misinterpreting the census to arrive at conclusions that cannot be drawn.

 

Let me use a very obvious examples to illustrate the problem:

 

A book has a print run of 500. As we know, "print run of 500" doesn't literally mean only 500 copies are printed; almost always, there is a 5-10% overrun to account for damages.

 

Now, say that book is very popular with the CGC crowd, and nearly every copy is submitted. The census shows 528 copies have been submitted for a book that only had a print run of 500. Accounting for possible resubmissions, if we didn't know independently from other sources that the book had print runs of 500, we might assume the book had a very large print run, based on how you're trying to use the census.

 

Conversely...say a book has a print run of 247,000 copies, but there are only 4 copies on the census. Using the census the way you're trying to do might lead someone to conclude that a particular book is very rare, when it's only an example of lack of interest in that particular book.

 

The census, in trying to establish the rarity of any particular item, only operates in very, very broad ways. It doesn't give us an accurate picture (and never can) of what might exist; it only tells us what DOES exist, and even that, due to resubmissions, isn't completely accurate, either.

 

It would be an error to look at the census and say "yes, this book is rare, because of these census numbers." It's also an error to say "yes, this book is rare or not rare because of its frequency on the marketplace." The marketplace is only a snapshot in time of what is available by people looking to sell what they have. If items are held in very strong hands, it could be relatively....key word there...common, but unavailable on the market, even if it does have value above and beyond costs.

 

The census, especially as it relates to what exists outside of the census, and the marketplace only shows us what the situation tends towards. It tends to be the case that a book may be rare based on low census numbers, or scarcity in the marketplace, but that is as far as you can go.

 

There is no conclusion that may be arrived at using the census and marketplace in this way, for the reasons stated above.

 

This is why your argument that there are "only 100 or fewer copies if Sandman #8 variant, because there are so few on the census" is wrong. Can it be proven wrong? Yes, eventually. But one doesn't need to wait for that proof, when one simply applies logic and reason, knowing what we know about all the factors involved.

 

And no, I am not going to take the time to list them (though I have already listed three from Marvel, including the 678). (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

Please provide proof that shows what the print runs of these books are. A statement from Marvel, Diamond, COA (like Dynamic Forces used to issue), anything along those lines that is an official statement of print run.

 

I don't expect anything I claim to be accepted without proof. That's the standard we all need to hold ourselves to.

 

[Lethal_Collector]

 

 

Jerome

[retrothecollector]

[bababooey]

I prefer the regular cover to this variant, they look good with my Toronto Sun from Dec 21, 2012.

 

[retrothecollector]

To play Devil's Advocate.

 

Marvel produced the direct edition of 678 with 54,252 copies.

 

This variant is 1:50 so that would mean there should be 1,085 copies of this book.

 

 

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2012/2012-01.html