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STAR WARS #1
0

Started by Mr 9.8,

967 posts in this topic

Broke as a Joke

Broke as a Joke

Posted
Posted

Paul's pic is just the tip of the iceberg. These hoards do exist and at these nosebleed prices more will trickle out into the public domain.

 

I remember a guy showing me his Byrne X-Men stash where he had 100 copies of each issue in the run. The 70's were not the early 60's. People were already buying multiples and saving them for a rainy day.

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paul747

paul747

Posted
Posted (edited)

And I am still not mad enough to actually go long box digging ! The 1976-78 stuff is stashed heavily Even STAR WARS #1 There are guys probably on this board with HOARDS ! I could care showing pics its a pain to move so many issues I am flipped and fee'd out on this 70's stuff. So keep paying 500-2000 for copies of this stuff It will BITE YOU ! ( well maybe not NM #98 is holding up !) :gossip:

Edited by paul747
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Mr 9.8

Mr 9.8

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Posted
Hey, were are all the unopened cases of the GOOD stuff like HULK #181 or All Star comics #58 Or Green Lantern Green Arrow #76? :sumo:
I don't know where the hoards of early seventies mid run Books are but if you do let me know.
My guess is if they haven't popped up yet they never will.
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vint43

vint43

Posted
Posted (edited)
balloon-boy-meme-i-want-to-believe_zps220a8270.jpg

 

 

 

 

bulkdrex1977_zpsa465ab00.jpg

 

a quick pick ... you should see the other guy...(where they came from) There are more of these out there.. Believe it !

 

 

Not sure how this pic deals with Star Wars #1? I see about 3 in this pic?

 

Star Wars was not a "typical" main run comic in 1977. It was based on a movie that became instantly "hot", that prior, was completely unknown.

 

The initial print was 100,000. That is the number that was given to Marvel royalty free by Lucas prior to the movie release. Frankly, Marvel didn't think it would ever sell that many so it appeared to be a completely royalty free comic. The reprints took it over 1M. Given Spiderman was printing 280k at the time it, the initial print was a mid level print.

 

After the movie released, the initial print quickly sold out (which was extremely rare for Marvel at the time). Many of Marvel's comics were over printed by as much as 50% during this time period. This created a huge surplus where "boxes" could be purchased and held for very cheap as the market dumped that surplus in many of their normal, main line comics. That is not what happened to Star Wars.

 

The original Star Wars #1 did not bulk up until the reprints. So, there were no "boxes" just sitting around for people to hoard at a cheap price that the market wanted to "dump". You would have had to pay a premium to get a sizable hoard once the movie hit because all the dealers wanted them and could sell them above list price (which, for hoarders, is not attractive). Before the movie hit, hardly anyone would have noticed the comic.

 

The mix of circumstances around this comic was completely different then Nova, Ms. Marvel, etc. at the time. Hoarding this comic would have been expensive because by the time the hoarder wanted the comic, everyone else did too. That alone would have made it less prevalent.

 

Secondly, the franchise cycled twice already (after the initial trilogy and after the prequels). Within those were several strong hype cycles followed by what looked like slow, declining interest.

 

None of these could shake these "hoards" free? Then why now? Is $1,500 such a magical number that now everyone who has waited 38 years and through 6 movies (with two very distinct hype cycles) will suddenly decide "open those boxes and get all my pristine 9.8 copies ready to sell" because movie #7 was announced, and for the first time, I think it will never get better then this?

 

Instead, is it not more likely that the census for Star Wars #1 CGC 9.8 will continue a steady, slow growth in numbers just like the last several years vs. this sudden explosion in numbers these stories of "hidden hoards" are strongly suggesting?

 

I would think the "explosion" in numbers in the census, should they occur, will be grades below 9.6. That is due to the fact that tons of raw copies that have been circulating for years but were never considered "CGC worthy" will now be graded. That is the true "hoard". That might cause a bump in 9.6 in above average pace because some of these copies will prove to be better then expected. However, not many will have missed a 9.8. That will probably just keep its current steady pace.

Edited by vint43
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rjrjr

rjrjr

Posted
Posted (edited)

I'm afraid I will have to vehemently (though respectfully) disagree with you. If you want to consider this book a "key" (I don't),

 

 

Why is this comic any less of a key than one of your beloved superhero comics? Is it because it is a movie adaptation? Do you feel movie adaptation cannot be considered keys? Interestingly, I had posted a month back about a stigma attached to movie comics, but many said no such stigma exists. Yet I'm seeing it again in your postings.

 

Honestly, if Star Wars #1 is not a key, I'm not sure what comic from that era can be considered a key. This book nearly single handedly saved Marvel from bankruptcy in the 1970s. When you add up all the printings, paperbacks, and Treasuries, it totaled over a million copies sold. Many, many comic fans (including myself) became comic collectors because of the Star Wars title probably moreso than any title in the 1970s. While there was a brief period of time in the 80s where the property disappeared from comic shelves, when it came back Star Wars arguably helped Dark Horse become one of the "big 3" for a while in the 1990s and was clearly Dark Horse's biggest seller for many, many years. Not to mention that this year, Star Wars #1 (2015) easily took the top spot for the best selling comic this century.

 

I'm really not understanding how this comic is anything but a key.

Edited by rjrjr
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rjrjr

rjrjr

Posted
Posted (edited)
And I am still not mad enough to actually go long box digging ! The 1976-78 stuff is stashed heavily Even STAR WARS #1 There are guys probably on this board with HOARDS ! I could care showing pics its a pain to move so many issues I am flipped and fee'd out on this 70's stuff. So keep paying 500-2000 for copies of this stuff It will BITE YOU ! ( well maybe not NM #98 is holding up !) :gossip:

 

There are people with hoards of many comics. I know a collector with 50+ copies of Incredible Hulk 181. I believe one of our fellow boardies has a few copies of the Iron Man and Submariner one-shot. lol I don't think those comics are any less desired because someone has a bunch of copies locked up in their collections.

Edited by rjrjr
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rjrjr

rjrjr

Posted
Posted (edited)
balloon-boy-meme-i-want-to-believe_zps220a8270.jpg

 

 

 

 

bulkdrex1977_zpsa465ab00.jpg

 

a quick pick ... you should see the other guy...(where they came from) There are more of these out there.. Believe it !

 

 

Not sure how this pic deals with Star Wars #1? I see about 3 in this pic?

 

Star Wars was not a "typical" main run comic in 1977. It was based on a movie that became instantly "hot", that prior, was completely unknown.

 

The initial print was 100,000. That is the number that was given to Marvel royalty free by Lucas prior to the movie release. Frankly, Marvel didn't think it would ever sell that many so it appeared to be a completely royalty free comic. The reprints took it over 1M. Given Spiderman was printing 280k at the time it, the initial print was a mid level print.

 

After the movie released, the initial print quickly sold out (which was extremely rare for Marvel at the time). Many of Marvel's comics were over printed by as much as 50% during this time period. This created a huge surplus where "boxes" could be purchased and held for very cheap as the market dumped that surplus in many of their normal, main line comics. That is not what happened to Star Wars.

 

The original Star Wars #1 did not bulk up until the reprints. So, there were no "boxes" just sitting around for people to hoard at a cheap price that the market wanted to "dump". You would have had to pay a premium to get a sizable hoard once the movie hit because all the dealers wanted them and could sell them above list price (which, for hoarders, is not attractive). Before the movie hit, hardly anyone would have noticed the comic.

 

The mix of circumstances around this comic was completely different then Nova, Ms. Marvel, etc. at the time. Hoarding this comic would have been expensive because by the time the hoarder wanted the comic, everyone else did too. That alone would have made it less prevalent.

 

Secondly, the franchise cycled twice already (after the initial trilogy and after the prequels). Within those were several strong hype cycles followed by what looked like slow, declining interest.

 

None of these could shake these "hoards" free? Then why now? Is $1,500 such a magical number that now everyone who has waited 38 years and through 6 movies (with two very distinct hype cycles) will suddenly decide "open those boxes and get all my pristine 9.8 copies ready to sell" because movie #7 was announced, and for the first time, I think it will never get better then this?

 

Instead, is it not more likely that the census for Star Wars #1 CGC 9.8 will continue a steady, slow growth in numbers just like the last several years vs. this sudden explosion in numbers these stories of "hidden hoards" are strongly suggesting?

 

I would think the "explosion" in numbers in the census, should they occur, will be grades below 9.6. That is due to the fact that tons of raw copies that have been circulating for years but were never considered "CGC worthy" will now be graded. That is the true "hoard". That might cause a bump in 9.6 in above average pace because some of these copies will prove to be better then expected. However, not many will have missed a 9.8. That will probably just keep its current steady pace.

 

Amazing Spider-Man's print run was about 590,000 copies at the time, not 280,000 copies:

 

http://io9.com/5840578/how-star-wars-saved-the-comic-book-industry

 

In 1975, Marvel's minimum print run for a title was 275,000:

 

http://www.hoodedutilitarian.com/2014/05/all-quacked-up-steve-gerber-marvel-comics-and-howard-the-duck/

 

A 100,000 copy print run would be below Marvel's minimum print run of the time as I cannot imagine they dropped the minimum by that much between 1975 and 1977.

 

Les Daniels' Marvel: Five Fabulous Decades of the World's Greatest Comics states that Lucas made a favorable deal with Marvel to help promote the movie. It would be strange that a favorable deal would entail Marvel printing less copies of this comic than the rest of their line of comics.

 

Anecdotally, I believe there has to be more than 100,000 copies of the Star Wars #1 $0.30 newsstand. I've been collecting this title for many, many years, and that first printing is just as common as some of the later reprints. And Star Wars #1 first print is no less common than many other Marvel comics of the time.

 

Finally, it is not like Star Wars was the first licensed title that Marvel printed. They had Planet of the Apes, 2001: A Space Odyssey, and Logan's Run before that (and probably others that I'm forgetting.) Seems strange that Star Wars was treated differently than those titles.

 

Just curious, because until this thread, I never read or heard about this royalty free information. What is the source of that information?

Edited by rjrjr
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paul747

paul747

Posted
Posted (edited)
I am looking but I don't see any cases...

 

(:

 

 

 

-slym

 

For that matter, all I see are 3 Star Wars #1s and a bunch of common superhero books. lol

 

:jokealert:

+1 ... Funny.. I have more star wars #1 have to go digging. I don't have over 25 that's for sure. But I have recently seen a case or 2 eq. (couple hundred copies) that's all I am saying. As for a 100,000 print run I think that info is off. Like rjrjr stated , that would be interesting to see the source info.

 

Will say that they where not all high grade.

Edited by paul747
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seanfingh

seanfingh

Posted
Posted

Alert! Anecdotal (not independently verifiable) information to follow:

 

Another difference with Star Wars 1 is that it always carried a higher value than the other books being discussed - Nova 1, Shazam 1, Ms. marvel 1 etc. Star Wars was at least $5 for the entire time I was stockpiling books. Nova and Ms. Marvel especially were in 50 cent and dollar boxes in 9.0+ in droves. I pulled exactly zero SW1 out of bargain bins. I had my keeper copy and that is all.

 

Also, everyone that keeps talking about unopened cases - you should figure out at what point in time books started coming out in cases. I don't know for sure, but until that point it was shipping bundles. I suspect SW1 was a shipping bundle book, not a case book.

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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

Posted
Posted
I don't think the pricing is out of line for the #1's in CGC 9.8. I've always felt that it was an under priced book. I'm more surprised that copies in the lower grades are still as inexpensive as they've been to this point. A 9.6 could be a flaw away from 9.8 yet the prices seem to be roughly 1/3 the cost of the higher grade. Then a 9.4 seems to be falling in the range of maybe 1/5 of the 9.8. I would love to have a 9.8 but the 9.6 seems to be the sweet spot and best current value for your dollar right now imo.

 

This actually isn't surprising since the only recorded sales at this price point are 3 sketchy ebay auctions.

 

-J.

 

That's not really a strong argument. Getting that old a book in 9.8 isnt easy, even when its one that common. The rarity of the UHG helps to counter the downward price pressure of the books high print run.

 

Almost all books that have a high print run/high value at the top end, tend to have parabolic price curves.

 

Whether current FMV is $1000 or $2000, has no bearing on the drop off between a 9.8 and 9.6, regardless of any fake sales.

 

I'm afraid I will have to vehemently (though respectfully) disagree with you. If you want to consider this book a "key" (I don't), once you compare it to actual, bona fide original material comic book keys from the same era, this is probably THE MOST common book found in a 9.8, and is even more common in a 9.8 than some keys are in a 9.6 or even grades below that. And this is with books that have had more than double the submissions to date than SW 1 in some cases. It's amazing to me how some folks posting in this thread seem to be getting closer and closer to calling this book "rare" as if to explain why this book "should" be "worth" $1800+ in a 9.8. Reminder: This book is not "rare", in any grade, at all, as Paul has also been explaining. And that is even before this artificial price spike which absolutely will bring out PLENTY more 9.8's, as well as numerous CPR's of 9.6's no doubt that will turn into even more 9.8's.

 

Reality Check:

 

GSXM 1- Total Submissions: 5,111

9.8's: 125

9.6's: 266 (still less than SW 1, 9.8)

 

ASM 129- Total Submissions: 5,982

9.8's: 83

9.6's: 265 (still less than SW 1, 9.8)

 

ASM 194- Total Submissions: 2,049

9.8's: 200

 

Incredible Hulk 181- Total Submissions: 7,219

9.8's: 91

9.6's: 262 (still less than SW 1, 9.8)

 

X-men 94- Total Submissions: 4,214

9.8's: 25

9.6's: 73 (still less then SW 1, 9.8)

9.4's: 203 (ditto)

9.2's: 285 (ditto)

 

Conan the Barbarian- Total Submissions: 2,265

9.8's: 36

(and fewer copies in every single

grade below than SW 1, 9.8 alone)

 

Iron Man 55- Total Submissions: 1,707

9.8's: 48

(and fewer copies in every single

grade below than SW 1, 9.8 alone)

 

 

 

Star Wars 1- Total Submissions: 3,343

9.8's: 309 (and counting)

 

As you can see, SW 1 9.8 is anywhere from 30% higher to more than 10X more common in 9.8 than all of the books above, which are generally accepted as being some of the most important and valuable books from the era. It's one thing to be a fan and to like seeing a book seemingly going up in value. But let's not re-write history here or completely ignore the reality of actual facts and data points.

 

In actuality, based on what other, similar aged (and also rarer in 9.8 grade) books go for in a 9.6 grade relative to their 9.8 counterparts, a 9.8 SW 1 is probably legitimately valued at around $1,100, based on what 9.6's are trading for (around $550-$575). This is still a nice and very sizable bump over the $550 9.8 SW 1's were going for just a matter of months ago, and probably what they would be going for without the pumping and ebay auction manipulation that's been going on to skew the numbers. My 2 cents.

 

-J.

 

 

 

Some good numbers, but...

 

A) Star Wars #1 IS a key. There's really no debating that. It is what it is.

 

B) The market for this book is 1000-100,000X greater than that of Ms. Marvel or even the X-Men. Even with the movies, comic book characters are still somewhat of a niche market. Star Wars was a cultural WORLD phenomenon before Byrne even started drawing the X-Men. It's had almost 40 YEARS as a cultural WORLD phenomenon. It's market is HUGE compared to 'the 1st Punisher'.

 

Demand is huge for this one.

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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

Posted
Posted
balloon-boy-meme-i-want-to-believe_zps220a8270.jpg

 

 

 

 

bulkdrex1977_zpsa465ab00.jpg

 

a quick pick ... you should see the other guy...(where they came from) There are more of these out there.. Believe it !

 

 

Not sure how this pic deals with Star Wars #1? I see about 3 in this pic?

 

Star Wars was not a "typical" main run comic in 1977. It was based on a movie that became instantly "hot", that prior, was completely unknown.

 

The initial print was 100,000. That is the number that was given to Marvel royalty free by Lucas prior to the movie release. Frankly, Marvel didn't think it would ever sell that many so it appeared to be a completely royalty free comic. The reprints took it over 1M. Given Spiderman was printing 280k at the time it, the initial print was a mid level print.

 

After the movie released, the initial print quickly sold out (which was extremely rare for Marvel at the time). Many of Marvel's comics were over printed by as much as 50% during this time period. This created a huge surplus where "boxes" could be purchased and held for very cheap as the market dumped that surplus in many of their normal, main line comics. That is not what happened to Star Wars.

 

The original Star Wars #1 did not bulk up until the reprints. So, there were no "boxes" just sitting around for people to hoard at a cheap price that the market wanted to "dump". You would have had to pay a premium to get a sizable hoard once the movie hit because all the dealers wanted them and could sell them above list price (which, for hoarders, is not attractive). Before the movie hit, hardly anyone would have noticed the comic.

 

The mix of circumstances around this comic was completely different then Nova, Ms. Marvel, etc. at the time. Hoarding this comic would have been expensive because by the time the hoarder wanted the comic, everyone else did too. That alone would have made it less prevalent.

 

Secondly, the franchise cycled twice already (after the initial trilogy and after the prequels). Within those were several strong hype cycles followed by what looked like slow, declining interest.

 

None of these could shake these "hoards" free? Then why now? Is $1,500 such a magical number that now everyone who has waited 38 years and through 6 movies (with two very distinct hype cycles) will suddenly decide "open those boxes and get all my pristine 9.8 copies ready to sell" because movie #7 was announced, and for the first time, I think it will never get better then this?

 

Instead, is it not more likely that the census for Star Wars #1 CGC 9.8 will continue a steady, slow growth in numbers just like the last several years vs. this sudden explosion in numbers these stories of "hidden hoards" are strongly suggesting?

 

I would think the "explosion" in numbers in the census, should they occur, will be grades below 9.6. That is due to the fact that tons of raw copies that have been circulating for years but were never considered "CGC worthy" will now be graded. That is the true "hoard". That might cause a bump in 9.6 in above average pace because some of these copies will prove to be better then expected. However, not many will have missed a 9.8. That will probably just keep its current steady pace.

 

Amazing Spider-Man's print run was about 590,000 copies at the time, not 280,000 copies:

 

http://io9.com/5840578/how-star-wars-saved-the-comic-book-industry

 

In 1975, Marvel's minimum print run for a title was 275,000:

 

http://www.hoodedutilitarian.com/2014/05/all-quacked-up-steve-gerber-marvel-comics-and-howard-the-duck/

 

A 100,000 copy print run would be below Marvel's minimum print run of the time as I cannot imagine they dropped the minimum by that much between 1975 and 1977.

 

Les Daniels' Marvel: Five Fabulous Decades of the World's Greatest Comics states that Lucas made a favorable deal with Marvel to help promote the movie. It would be strange that a favorable deal would entail Marvel printing less copies of this comic than the rest of their line of comics.

 

Anecdotally, I believe there has to be more than 100,000 copies of the Star Wars #1 $0.30 newsstand. I've been collecting this title for many, many years, and that first printing is just as common as some of the later reprints. And Star Wars #1 first print is no less common than many other Marvel comics of the time.

 

Finally, it is not like Star Wars was the first licensed title that Marvel printed. They had Planet of the Apes, 2001: A Space Odyssey, and Logan's Run before that (and probably others that I'm forgetting.) Seems strange that Star Wars was treated differently than those titles.

 

Just curious, because until this thread, I never read or heard about this royalty free information. What is the source of that information?

 

The 280,000 is total paid circulation. Remember, at that time, any unsold copies at the newsstand had the logo torn off, returned to the publisher and destroyed. Star Wars could've had an initial print order of 275,000, but the question becomes - how many didn't sell and were destroyed? The book wasn't an immediate hit.... it wasn't until a month later that the movie came out.... (shrug)

 

Comichron ASM numbers

 

 

 

 

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paul747

paul747

Posted
Posted (edited)
Alert! Anecdotal (not independently verifiable) information to follow:

 

Another difference with Star Wars 1 is that it always carried a higher value than the other books being discussed - Nova 1, Shazam 1, Ms. marvel 1 etc. Star Wars was at least $5 for the entire time I was stockpiling books. Nova and Ms. Marvel especially were in 50 cent and dollar boxes in 9.0+ in droves. I pulled exactly zero SW1 out of bargain bins. I had my keeper copy and that is all.

 

Also, everyone that keeps talking about unopened cases - you should figure out at what point in time books started coming out in cases. I don't know for sure, but until that point it was shipping bundles. I suspect SW1 was a shipping bundle book, not a case book.

case in my terms is over 200 copies of the book . But for sure some of the 1977 stuff was in case boxes (or at least ended up in boxes ) not bundles. I use the term for over 200 copies. As for the old bundles to boxes argument I believe there where both... Edited by paul747
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