ygogolak Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Daredevil #168 CGC 9.6 @ $327 & 20 bids. Avengers Annual #7 CGC 9.6 @ $225 in a BIN Sub Mariner #34 CGC 9.8 @ $727 & 40 bids. Some interesting auctions. Congrats to the buyers and the sellers. (thumbs u Calling Sub-Mariner #34 1st Pre Defenders is basically a lie. Just curious why you feel that way? It has been thought of that way for at least the last 30 years. It is listed in Overstreet that way under Sub-Mariner 34 & also noted as a pre-appearance under Marvel Feature #1. I understand everyone has their own opinion, but this one seems pretty obvious. It also says it on the CGC label. Can't pin this on the seller, though if you want to call CGC liars, that's fine. sub-Mariner 34 features Subby, Hulk and Surfer. The Original Defenders are Subby, Hulk and Strange and Hulk leaves in the first issue according to the wikia. So two members appearing in the same book constitute the "team"? As an example, did Iron Man, Hulk and / or Thor ever meet before Avengers 1? I'm assuming that you have arrived at your conclusion without ever having read Marvel Feature #1? In Marvel Feature #1 (The 1st Defenders) Strange seeks out Namor for help. Namor agrees to help & suggests they locate The Hulk & Silver Surfer because the had fought as allies in a previous battle. They were able to locate the Hulk but the Silver Surfer was unconscious after trying to break the hidden barrier that trapped him on earth. So they went into battle without the Silver Surfer. Yes, the Hulk left after the first battle, as did Strange & Namor. They all 3 got back together in the next issue (which I am assuming you didn't read either). No, I have not read them. In fact there are lots of books I havent read. I even own a lot I haven't read. I'm strictly going by information that I have found and I think I have presented a good case. Of course the context of the story is very important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaillant Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 All that matters is whether the market decides that Avengers #71 is the 1st Invaders or not. The market can decide that Avengers #71 is worth a million dollars - in fact, I highly encourage this - but it won't change reality. Although the book has been considered as such, I trust hands down Crimebuster on the Invaders. In fact, I still need a Giant-Size Invaders although I have a #71 so I must pick one. I am also not 100% sure I already have an Invaders #1 – too many things to remember! Just curious why you feel that way? It has been thought of that way for at least the last 30 years. It is listed in Overstreet that way under Sub-Mariner 34 & also noted as a pre-appearance under Marvel Feature #1. I understand everyone has their own opinion, but this one seems pretty obvious. I reply on his behalf, since I am pretty much into the Defenders, say like I am crazy about them! Sub-Mariner #34-35 is not properly a pre-Defenders story, or it might be just that in part. The main story arc which can be considered a gathering of sorts is the one from which Thomas gets the idea for the series: Hulk #126 / Sub-Mariner #21 / Dr. Strange #183 – here we are introduced to the nether-demons Nameless Ones, because of which Barbara Norriss loses her mind (her and her husband Jack were dabbling with the demonic cult of the aforementioned) and it’s where Dr. Strange first meets with both Hulk and Namor. And all of this of course happens before Sub-Mariner #34-35. It‘s not by chance that Englehart, when starts the series in Defenders #1 ideally picks up once again the Nameless Ones as the enemy, and the Valkyrie of course gets in the body of Barbara Norriss, while Barbara’s insane mind is trapped in the Valkyrie's body. So Hulk #126 is the first Barbara, Hulk #142 is the first Valkyrie (in this first apperance she is in the body of Samantha Parrington), while Avengers #83 just shows the Enchantress disguised as the Valkyrie, and thus does not represent the first apperance of the Valkyrie even if it should have come out earlier, I believe. Avengers 83 is still the 1st time the Valkyrie name and costume was used, 9 months before Hulk 142, so Avengers is the one to chase IMO If we want to go in detail, all four (Avengers #83, Hulk #126 and #142 and Defenders #4) have the same importance, but strictly speaking in Avengers #83 we see the Valkyrie but in fact it’s just a spell of the Enchantress which appears in disguise. The Valkyrie was under a spell from the Enchantress, and thus we have: – Avengers #83: Enhantress appears disguised as the Valkyrie, forms the Lady Liberators deceiving the female members of Avengers, and they fight the male members; – Hulk #126: First apperance of Barbara Norriss (which becames insane at the end of the story arc, see Subby #21 and Doctor Strange #183); – Hulk #142: The Valkyrie incarnates in the body of Samantha Parrington and battles the Hulk, then Samantha gets back to herself; – Defenders #4: the Valkyrie acquires the body of Barbara Norriss, while the "absent" Barbara is trapped within the body of the Valkyrie in Asgard. – some Defenders issues in the #60s tell the origin of the Valkyrie in full. I hope Crimebuster can correct me if I am wrong, but Avengers #83, although showing her physical features for the first time, is not the first apperance of her. :shrug: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaillant Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Yes, the Hulk left after the first battle, as did Strange & Namor. They all 3 got back together in the next issue (which I am assuming you didn't read either). No, I have not read them. In fact there are lots of books I havent read. I even own a lot I haven't read. I'm strictly going by information that I have found and I think I have presented a good case. Of course the context of the story is very important. Basically, as important one could consider the two Sub-Mariner issues (I personally don’t even have them and I am a huge fan… ) the Defenders is a "non-team" summoned by Strange almost "by chance" in unusual situations of danger. This happened first in the story arc I mentioned, and from which Thomas got the idea. If one reads the story, it will be easy to see it is a very relevant and important story for what the Defenders would have been later on, a lot more than the chance alliance happening in Subby #34-35 between them alone (without Dr. Strange), but of course one might want to have them all, and understandably. What I was surprised about, is how much #34 and #35 were sought after, as the original story arc of Hulk #126, Subby #21 and Dr. Strange #183 is truly "quintessentially Defenders" even if it is just the ideal context from which the idea would have stemmed. Much like when Thomas inspired by Warlock turns him into a full-developed character, and christens him (previously just "Him", almost unnamed). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaillant Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I thought it was Hulk 142 as well. Learn something new every day. Assuming I did it right, see my detailed post above. Strictly speaking it is Hulk #142, but they are all important, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimebuster Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) All that matters is whether the market decides that Avengers #71 is the 1st Invaders or not. The market can decide that Avengers #71 is worth a million dollars - in fact, I highly encourage this - but it won't change reality. Although the book has been considered as such, I trust hands down Crimebuster on the Invaders. In fact, I still need a Giant-Size Invaders although I have a #71 so I must pick one. I am also not 100% sure I already have an Invaders #1 – too many things to remember! Just curious why you feel that way? It has been thought of that way for at least the last 30 years. It is listed in Overstreet that way under Sub-Mariner 34 & also noted as a pre-appearance under Marvel Feature #1. I understand everyone has their own opinion, but this one seems pretty obvious. I reply on his behalf, since I am pretty much into the Defenders, say like I am crazy about them! Sub-Mariner #34-35 is not properly a pre-Defenders story, or it might be just that in part. The main story arc which can be considered a gathering of sorts is the one from which Thomas gets the idea for the series: Hulk #126 / Sub-Mariner #21 / Dr. Strange #183 – here we are introduced to the nether-demons Nameless Ones, because of which Barbara Norriss loses her mind (her and her husband Jack were dabbling with the demonic cult of the aforementioned) and it’s where Dr. Strange first meets with both Hulk and Namor. And all of this of course happens before Sub-Mariner #34-35. It‘s not by chance that Englehart, when starts the series in Defenders #1 ideally picks up once again the Nameless Ones as the enemy, and the Valkyrie of course gets in the body of Barbara Norriss, while Barbara’s insane mind is trapped in the Valkyrie's body. So Hulk #126 is the first Barbara, Hulk #142 is the first Valkyrie (in this first apperance she is in the body of Samantha Parrington), while Avengers #83 just shows the Enchantress disguised as the Valkyrie, and thus does not represent the first apperance of the Valkyrie even if it should have come out earlier, I believe. Avengers 83 is still the 1st time the Valkyrie name and costume was used, 9 months before Hulk 142, so Avengers is the one to chase IMO If we want to go in detail, all four (Avengers #83, Hulk #126 and #142 and Defenders #4) have the same importance, but strictly speaking in Avengers #83 we see the Valkyrie but in fact it’s just a spell of the Enchantress which appears in disguise. The Valkyrie was under a spell from the Enchantress, and thus we have: – Avengers #83: Enhantress appears disguised as the Valkyrie, forms the Lady Liberators deceiving the female members of Avengers, and they fight the male members; – Hulk #126: First apperance of Barbara Norriss (which becames insane at the end of the story arc, see Subby #21 and Doctor Strange #183); – Hulk #142: The Valkyrie incarnates in the body of Samantha Parrington and battles the Hulk, then Samantha gets back to herself; – Defenders #4: the Valkyrie acquires the body of Barbara Norriss, while the "absent" Barbara is trapped within the body of the Valkyrie in Asgard. – some Defenders issues in the #60s tell the origin of the Valkyrie in full. I hope Crimebuster can correct me if I am wrong, but Avengers #83, although showing her physical features for the first time, is not the first apperance of her. :shrug: You are correct. Essentially, Valkyrie was a fake identity created by the Enchantress as part of her scheme to divide and conquer the Avengers in Avengers #83. It's like Supernova turning out to be Booster Gold, or Eric the Red turning out to be Cyclops. After this issue came out, someone at Marvel said, "hey, that Valkyrie design is really good. The name and costume are too cool, we should use it again." So they created the new heroic Valkyrie - same exact look and name - and made up a backstory to explain why she looked exactly like the Enchantress's fake identity. (that story being that she is an actual valkyrie that Enchantress knew on Asgard was copying, so she already existed in the MU, but the readers just hadn't met her before) So this is kind of the opposite of a lot of other muddied first appearances where the civilian identity appears first - like Carol Danvers - and the costumed/superpowered identity appears later. In this case, the Valkyrie identity appears first, but there's no actual character associated with it until many months later. Edited February 10, 2015 by Crimebuster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ygogolak Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Yes, the Hulk left after the first battle, as did Strange & Namor. They all 3 got back together in the next issue (which I am assuming you didn't read either). No, I have not read them. In fact there are lots of books I havent read. I even own a lot I haven't read. I'm strictly going by information that I have found and I think I have presented a good case. Of course the context of the story is very important. Basically, as important one could consider the two Sub-Mariner issues (I personally don’t even have them and I am a huge fan… ) the Defenders is a "non-team" summoned by Strange almost "by chance" in unusual situations of danger. This happened first in the story arc I mentioned, and from which Thomas got the idea. If one reads the story, it will be easy to see it is a very relevant and important story for what the Defenders would have been later on, a lot more than the chance alliance happening in Subby #34-35 between them alone (without Dr. Strange), but of course one might want to have them all, and understandably. What I was surprised about, is how much #34 and #35 were sought after, as the original story arc of Hulk #126, Subby #21 and Dr. Strange #183 is truly "quintessentially Defenders" even if it is just the ideal context from which the idea would have stemmed. Much like when Thomas inspired by Warlock turns him into a full-developed character, and christens him (previously just "Him", almost unnamed). Very informative, thank you for the history! I also ran across what is probably a better description of Sub 34: Leads into Defenders #1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hekla Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Thanks for sharing a lot of good info I've been working on a Defenders run and now know I need a few more issues to make it complete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaillant Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Glad you appreciated it… I just hate this frenzy when someone tries to identify "the book to go for" – put your heart at peace, speculators: with the Valkyrie and the Defenders it‘s impossible, and I am enjoying this immensely… Also, not only Hulk quit the Defenders after #1, but he basically quit at the end of each and every adventure… and so did Sub-Mariner (mostly) and Silver Surfer. Basically, until Nigthawk was "redeemed" from his criminal past and joined (and then being a millionaire decided to help Dr. Strange and back up the team with his finances) the Defenders have always been, and remained a "non group" – that was the greatest thing about them, and the great writers which did them. In fact, we might say that Dr. Strange, Nighthawk and the Valkyrie, and then Hellcat, have been the most "stable" lineup… with the Hulk coming and going. Not to mention how much I love how DeMatteis handled the Son of Satan and Patsy Walker story… he managed to neutralize whatever mess one could have done with such difficult characters to write afterwards… so I can be less enraged by how Marvel messed up them in the 1990s. I still consider the issue of Marvel Fanfare where Daimon and wife go back to Patsy Walker's hometown in a romance comics styled adventure (and drawn as such), and Daimon manages to put some reason in the jealousy and sad quarrels within Patsy’s family. Just great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbud73 Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Someone que up a few 'no prizes' as I've often said the amassed knowledge on the CGC boards really is a unparalleled lexicon and on display daily All that matters is whether the market decides that Avengers #71 is the 1st Invaders or not. The market can decide that Avengers #71 is worth a million dollars - in fact, I highly encourage this - but it won't change reality. Although the book has been considered as such, I trust hands down Crimebuster on the Invaders. In fact, I still need a Giant-Size Invaders although I have a #71 so I must pick one. I am also not 100% sure I already have an Invaders #1 – too many things to remember! Just curious why you feel that way? It has been thought of that way for at least the last 30 years. It is listed in Overstreet that way under Sub-Mariner 34 & also noted as a pre-appearance under Marvel Feature #1. I understand everyone has their own opinion, but this one seems pretty obvious. I reply on his behalf, since I am pretty much into the Defenders, say like I am crazy about them! Sub-Mariner #34-35 is not properly a pre-Defenders story, or it might be just that in part. The main story arc which can be considered a gathering of sorts is the one from which Thomas gets the idea for the series: Hulk #126 / Sub-Mariner #21 / Dr. Strange #183 – here we are introduced to the nether-demons Nameless Ones, because of which Barbara Norriss loses her mind (her and her husband Jack were dabbling with the demonic cult of the aforementioned) and it’s where Dr. Strange first meets with both Hulk and Namor. And all of this of course happens before Sub-Mariner #34-35. It‘s not by chance that Englehart, when starts the series in Defenders #1 ideally picks up once again the Nameless Ones as the enemy, and the Valkyrie of course gets in the body of Barbara Norriss, while Barbara’s insane mind is trapped in the Valkyrie's body. So Hulk #126 is the first Barbara, Hulk #142 is the first Valkyrie (in this first apperance she is in the body of Samantha Parrington), while Avengers #83 just shows the Enchantress disguised as the Valkyrie, and thus does not represent the first apperance of the Valkyrie even if it should have come out earlier, I believe. Avengers 83 is still the 1st time the Valkyrie name and costume was used, 9 months before Hulk 142, so Avengers is the one to chase IMO If we want to go in detail, all four (Avengers #83, Hulk #126 and #142 and Defenders #4) have the same importance, but strictly speaking in Avengers #83 we see the Valkyrie but in fact it’s just a spell of the Enchantress which appears in disguise. The Valkyrie was under a spell from the Enchantress, and thus we have: – Avengers #83: Enhantress appears disguised as the Valkyrie, forms the Lady Liberators deceiving the female members of Avengers, and they fight the male members; – Hulk #126: First apperance of Barbara Norriss (which becames insane at the end of the story arc, see Subby #21 and Doctor Strange #183); – Hulk #142: The Valkyrie incarnates in the body of Samantha Parrington and battles the Hulk, then Samantha gets back to herself; – Defenders #4: the Valkyrie acquires the body of Barbara Norriss, while the "absent" Barbara is trapped within the body of the Valkyrie in Asgard. – some Defenders issues in the #60s tell the origin of the Valkyrie in full. I hope Crimebuster can correct me if I am wrong, but Avengers #83, although showing her physical features for the first time, is not the first apperance of her. :shrug: You are correct. Essentially, Valkyrie was a fake identity created by the Enchantress as part of her scheme to divide and conquer the Avengers in Avengers #83. It's like Supernova turning out to be Booster Gold, or Eric the Red turning out to be Cyclops. After this issue came out, someone at Marvel said, "hey, that Valkyrie design is really good. The name and costume are too cool, we should use it again." So they created the new heroic Valkyrie - same exact look and name - and made up a backstory to explain why she looked exactly like the Enchantress's fake identity. (that story being that she is an actual valkyrie that Enchantress knew on Asgard was copying, so she already existed in the MU, but the readers just hadn't met her before) So this is kind of the opposite of a lot of other muddied first appearances where the civilian identity appears first - like Carol Danvers - and the costumed/superpowered identity appears later. In this case, the Valkyrie identity appears first, but there's no actual character associated with it until many months later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaillant Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Someone que up a few 'no prizes' as I've often said the amassed knowledge on the CGC boards really is a unparalleled lexicon and on display daily Jason! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonzilla Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 My beef with The Defenders will always be the horrible way they ended the Omega The Unknown story and we'll never know how Steve Gerber intended to do it. Mary Skrenes still ain't talkin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beastfeast Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Am I missing something here? Hulk 181 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Linguini Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 so now that Foom 15 has been revealed to be the first Ms.Marvel, coming out a year before Mrs. Marvel #1.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paperheart Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 so now that Foom 15 has been revealed to be the first Ms.Marvel, coming out a year before Mrs. Marvel #1.... Captain Marvel Adventures #18 1942 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockMyAmadeus Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Am I missing something here? Hulk 181 $1200 was the reserve. Smells fishy. $1200 is $100 less than I paid in 2013 for a 9.0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bababooey Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Am I missing something here? Hulk 181 $1200 was the reserve. Smells fishy. $1200 is $100 less than I paid in 2013 for a 9.0. There's only one bidder with activity above $ 432.00 that I can see unless I'm missing something in the bid history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaillant Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 My beef with The Defenders will always be the horrible way they ended the Omega The Unknown story and we'll never know how Steve Gerber intended to do it. Mary Skrenes still ain't talkin I probably loathe them as much as you (or more), I don’t even consider these two issues… and I believe they were written by Steven Grant – not a Defenders' writer's fault – I don’t even consider them to be there… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonzilla Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 My beef with The Defenders will always be the horrible way they ended the Omega The Unknown story and we'll never know how Steve Gerber intended to do it. Mary Skrenes still ain't talkin I probably loathe them as much as you (or more), I don’t even consider these two issues… and I believe they were written by Steven Grant – not a Defenders' writer's fault – I don’t even consider them to be there… Hopefully one day Abnett will retcon that travesty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaillant Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Is there a reason for which you thinking of Abnett (Dan Abnett I suppose)? The only one which I would find acceptable to "end" Omega's story is Mary Skrenes, now that Steve Gerber is no longer here. I understand it might sound strange but I quite like the fact that Omega ends abruptly and we do not know what actually happened (is he dead? and James Michael?) That somewhat added to the qualities of the series, IMO – I read it when I was 11 (the same age of J.M.) for the first time and it is one of my favorite Marvel (short) series ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkowl Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Am I missing something here? Hulk 181 That's funny. I just made a thread about this. http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=8380562#Post8380562 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
