Lonzilla Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 If you compare Valkyrie with, let's say, a character like Ms Marvel for example, then Hulk 126 (1st Barbara Norriss) has the same importance as Captain Marvel 18 has (1st Carol Danvers) And yes, Defenders #4 should worth more indeed (1st Barbara Norriss as Valkyrie) I wish the CM 18 Carol Danvers "importance" would be put to rest. I've read it several times and the part with her getting the powers from Mar-Vell isn't obvious as it was retconned years later. Yes, I've made money off the book, but it's really a stretch to push it as a "key" to people who don't know any better. MSH #14 is Carol's actual 1st appearance and there's no argument there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pickycollector Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 For the sake of Valkyrie the first appearance is clearly avengers 83. All the recons of characters and alias aren't first appearances. First appearance of the Alias maybe but not the character. Avengers 83 isn't the first appearance of a character, just the first published depiction of a character's likeness - as portrayed by an impostor. You might as well just go full Ween. Really now, you haven't even read the issues you're discussing, have you? In all 3 of the first appearances, the Enchantress is the one to give the Valkyrie's likeness/personality/powers to each character. In Avengers 83 she used the likeness on herself against the Avengers. In Hulk 142, she used the likeness on Samantha Pennington to attack the Hulk. In Defenders #4, she again used it on Barbara Norriss to help her with the Defenders. What in the world is the difference? Avengers 83: 1st time Valkyrie's name is used? Check. First Valkyrie's likeness? Check. Prominent cover appearance? Check. Valkyrie's looks exactly the same as in every appearance over the next 30-40 years? Check. The same would be true then with 1st SA appearance of Captain America in Strange Tales 114.. Strange Tales 114: 1st time Cap's name is used in the Silver Age? Check. First Cap's likeness? Check. Prominent cover appearance? Check. Cap's looks exactly the same as in every appearance over the next 30-40 years? Check Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 For the sake of Valkyrie the first appearance is clearly avengers 83. All the recons of characters and alias aren't first appearances. First appearance of the Alias maybe but not the character. Avengers 83 isn't the first appearance of a character, just the first published depiction of a character's likeness - as portrayed by an impostor. You might as well just go full Ween. Really now, you haven't even read the issues you're discussing, have you? In all 3 of the first appearances, the Enchantress is the one to give the Valkyrie's likeness/personality/powers to each character. In Avengers 83 she used the likeness on herself against the Avengers. In Hulk 142, she used the likeness on Samantha Pennington to attack the Hulk. In Defenders #4, she again used it on Barbara Norriss to help her with the Defenders. What in the world is the difference? Avengers 83: 1st time Valkyrie's name is used? Check. First Valkyrie's likeness? Check. Prominent cover appearance? Check. Valkyrie's looks exactly the same as in every appearance over the next 30-40 years? Check. The same would be true then with 1st SA appearance of Captain America in Strange Tales 114.. Strange Tales 114: 1st time Cap's name is used in the Silver Age? Check. First Cap's likeness? Check. Prominent cover appearance? Check. Cap's looks exactly the same as in every appearance over the next 30-40 years? Check First appearance and "first SA appearance" are not the same thing? Check. -J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonzilla Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 For the sake of Valkyrie the first appearance is clearly avengers 83. All the recons of characters and alias aren't first appearances. First appearance of the Alias maybe but not the character. Avengers 83 isn't the first appearance of a character, just the first published depiction of a character's likeness - as portrayed by an impostor. You might as well just go full Ween. Really now, you haven't even read the issues you're discussing, have you? In all 3 of the first appearances, the Enchantress is the one to give the Valkyrie's likeness/personality/powers to each character. In Avengers 83 she used the likeness on herself against the Avengers. In Hulk 142, she used the likeness on Samantha Pennington to attack the Hulk. In Defenders #4, she again used it on Barbara Norriss to help her with the Defenders. What in the world is the difference? Avengers 83: 1st time Valkyrie's name is used? Check. First Valkyrie's likeness? Check. Prominent cover appearance? Check. Valkyrie's looks exactly the same as in every appearance over the next 30-40 years? Check. The same would be true then with 1st SA appearance of Captain America in Strange Tales 114.. Strange Tales 114: 1st time Cap's name is used in the Silver Age? Check. First Cap's likeness? Check. Prominent cover appearance? Check. Cap's looks exactly the same as in every appearance over the next 30-40 years? Check First appearance and "first SA appearance" are not the same thing? Check. -J. Actually I do consider ST 114 as the 1st SA Cap appearance. Point being? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pickycollector Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Points are: Overstreet considers Avengers #4 as the 1st SA app. of Captain America, not ST #114. Avengers #4 worth much more than ST #114 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 For the sake of Valkyrie the first appearance is clearly avengers 83. All the recons of characters and alias aren't first appearances. First appearance of the Alias maybe but not the character. Avengers 83 isn't the first appearance of a character, just the first published depiction of a character's likeness - as portrayed by an impostor. You might as well just go full Ween. Really now, you haven't even read the issues you're discussing, have you? In all 3 of the first appearances, the Enchantress is the one to give the Valkyrie's likeness/personality/powers to each character. In Avengers 83 she used the likeness on herself against the Avengers. In Hulk 142, she used the likeness on Samantha Pennington to attack the Hulk. In Defenders #4, she again used it on Barbara Norriss to help her with the Defenders. What in the world is the difference? Avengers 83: 1st time Valkyrie's name is used? Check. First Valkyrie's likeness? Check. Prominent cover appearance? Check. Valkyrie's looks exactly the same as in every appearance over the next 30-40 years? Check. The same would be true then with 1st SA appearance of Captain America in Strange Tales 114.. Strange Tales 114: 1st time Cap's name is used in the Silver Age? Check. First Cap's likeness? Check. Prominent cover appearance? Check. Cap's looks exactly the same as in every appearance over the next 30-40 years? Check First appearance and "first SA appearance" are not the same thing? Check. -J. Actually I do consider ST 114 as the 1st SA Cap appearance. Point being? Everyone already knew (or should have known) who captain America was when they "brought him back" in the SA. There was therefore context to the "imposter appearance" in ST 114. The same cannot be said for Valkyrie which was actually a first appearance of the character, irrespective of the subsequent ret-con. -J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pickycollector Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 For the sake of Valkyrie the first appearance is clearly avengers 83. All the recons of characters and alias aren't first appearances. First appearance of the Alias maybe but not the character. Avengers 83 isn't the first appearance of a character, just the first published depiction of a character's likeness - as portrayed by an impostor. You might as well just go full Ween. Really now, you haven't even read the issues you're discussing, have you? In all 3 of the first appearances, the Enchantress is the one to give the Valkyrie's likeness/personality/powers to each character. In Avengers 83 she used the likeness on herself against the Avengers. In Hulk 142, she used the likeness on Samantha Pennington to attack the Hulk. In Defenders #4, she again used it on Barbara Norriss to help her with the Defenders. What in the world is the difference? Avengers 83: 1st time Valkyrie's name is used? Check. First Valkyrie's likeness? Check. Prominent cover appearance? Check. Valkyrie's looks exactly the same as in every appearance over the next 30-40 years? Check. The same would be true then with 1st SA appearance of Captain America in Strange Tales 114.. Strange Tales 114: 1st time Cap's name is used in the Silver Age? Check. First Cap's likeness? Check. Prominent cover appearance? Check. Cap's looks exactly the same as in every appearance over the next 30-40 years? Check First appearance and "first SA appearance" are not the same thing? Check. -J. Actually I do consider ST 114 as the 1st SA Cap appearance. Point being? Everyone already knew (or should have known) who captain America was when they "brought him back" in the SA. There was therefore context to the "imposter appearance" in ST 114. The same cannot be said for Valkyrie which was actually a first appearance of the character, irrespective of the subsequent ret-con. -J. It does not matter. If there was a Valkyrie appearance in the Golden Age, we would have the same discussion except to discuss which comic is the first SA appearance of Valkyrie, same as Cap in ST 114 vs Avengers 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 For the sake of Valkyrie the first appearance is clearly avengers 83. All the recons of characters and alias aren't first appearances. First appearance of the Alias maybe but not the character. Avengers 83 isn't the first appearance of a character, just the first published depiction of a character's likeness - as portrayed by an impostor. You might as well just go full Ween. Really now, you haven't even read the issues you're discussing, have you? In all 3 of the first appearances, the Enchantress is the one to give the Valkyrie's likeness/personality/powers to each character. In Avengers 83 she used the likeness on herself against the Avengers. In Hulk 142, she used the likeness on Samantha Pennington to attack the Hulk. In Defenders #4, she again used it on Barbara Norriss to help her with the Defenders. What in the world is the difference? Avengers 83: 1st time Valkyrie's name is used? Check. First Valkyrie's likeness? Check. Prominent cover appearance? Check. Valkyrie's looks exactly the same as in every appearance over the next 30-40 years? Check. The same would be true then with 1st SA appearance of Captain America in Strange Tales 114.. Strange Tales 114: 1st time Cap's name is used in the Silver Age? Check. First Cap's likeness? Check. Prominent cover appearance? Check. Cap's looks exactly the same as in every appearance over the next 30-40 years? Check First appearance and "first SA appearance" are not the same thing? Check. -J. Actually I do consider ST 114 as the 1st SA Cap appearance. Point being? Everyone already knew (or should have known) who captain America was when they "brought him back" in the SA. There was therefore context to the "imposter appearance" in ST 114. The same cannot be said for Valkyrie which was actually a first appearance of the character, irrespective of the subsequent ret-con. -J. It does not matter. If there was a Valkyrie appearance in the Golden Age, we would have the same discussion except to discuss which comic is the first SA appearance of Valkyrie, same as Cap in ST 114 vs Avengers 4 The better comparison is the one made to Domino in NM 98, which is actually that character's first appearance as well, irrespective of the subsequent narrative ret-con. "First SA appearances" of characters is a generally superficial means to give an appearance of an already existing and established character value in this hobby (unless the character has been completely revamped and re-imagined to the point of essentially being a new character with just an inherited name, eg the Flash and GL in the Showcase run). -J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockMyAmadeus Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 For the sake of Valkyrie the first appearance is clearly avengers 83. All the recons of characters and alias aren't first appearances. First appearance of the Alias maybe but not the character. Avengers 83 isn't the first appearance of a character, just the first published depiction of a character's likeness - as portrayed by an impostor. You might as well just go full Ween. You never go FULL Ween. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divad Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Who cares about 1st Appearances, not me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike's Rack Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 For the sake of Valkyrie the first appearance is clearly avengers 83. All the recons of characters and alias aren't first appearances. First appearance of the Alias maybe but not the character. Avengers 83 isn't the first appearance of a character, just the first published depiction of a character's likeness - as portrayed by an impostor. You might as well just go full Ween. You never go FULL Ween. Just the tip is enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ygogolak Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 For the sake of Valkyrie the first appearance is clearly avengers 83. All the recons of characters and alias aren't first appearances. First appearance of the Alias maybe but not the character. Avengers 83 isn't the first appearance of a character, just the first published depiction of a character's likeness - as portrayed by an impostor. You might as well just go full Ween. You never go FULL Ween. Just the tip is enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonzilla Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Points are: Overstreet considers Avengers #4 as the 1st SA app. of Captain America, not ST #114. Avengers #4 worth much more than ST #114 Actually, Overstreet says for ST #114 "Acrobat disguised as Captain America, 1st app since the G.A." and for Avengers #4 "Revival of Captain America.. 1st SA app of Cap & Bucky So, Overstreet is making the "1st" notation for both books with different wording. Of course Avengers #4 is worth way more than ST 114 because it's Steve Rogers and that's the book that all of the Cap collectors want. If there's a slew of die hard Valkyrie collectors out there, I'd like to hear which book they designate as her 1st appearance. Overstreet: Avengers 83 : "Intro:The Liberators (Wasp, Valkyrie, Scarlet Witch, Black Widow, Medusa)" Hulk 126 : "1st Barbara Norriss (Valkyrie)" Defenders 4 : "Valkyrie joins" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the blob Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Points are: Overstreet considers Avengers #4 as the 1st SA app. of Captain America, not ST #114. Avengers #4 worth much more than ST #114 Actually, Overstreet says for ST #114 "Acrobat disguised as Captain America, 1st app since the G.A." and for Avengers #4 "Revival of Captain America.. 1st SA app of Cap & Bucky So, Overstreet is making the "1st" notation for both books with different wording. Of course Avengers #4 is worth way more than ST 114 because it's Steve Rogers and that's the book that all of the Cap collectors want. If there's a slew of die hard Valkyrie collectors out there, I'd like to hear which book they designate as her 1st appearance. Overstreet: Avengers 83 : "Intro:The Liberators (Wasp, Valkyrie, Scarlet Witch, Black Widow, Medusa)" Hulk 126 : "1st Barbara Norriss (Valkyrie)" Defenders 4 : "Valkyrie joins" the nude variant is the one i am looking for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR SigS Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 For the sake of Valkyrie the first appearance is clearly avengers 83. All the recons of characters and alias aren't first appearances. First appearance of the Alias maybe but not the character. Avengers 83 isn't the first appearance of a character, just the first published depiction of a character's likeness - as portrayed by an impostor. You might as well just go full Ween. Really now, you haven't even read the issues you're discussing, have you? In all 3 of the first appearances, the Enchantress is the one to give the Valkyrie's likeness/personality/powers to each character. In Avengers 83 she used the likeness on herself against the Avengers. In Hulk 142, she used the likeness on Samantha Pennington to attack the Hulk. In Defenders #4, she again used it on Barbara Norriss to help her with the Defenders. What in the world is the difference? Avengers 83: 1st time Valkyrie's name is used? Check. First Valkyrie's likeness? Check. Prominent cover appearance? Check. Valkyrie's looks exactly the same as in every appearance over the next 30-40 years? Check. The same would be true then with 1st SA appearance of Captain America in Strange Tales 114.. Strange Tales 114: 1st time Cap's name is used in the Silver Age? Check. First Cap's likeness? Check. Prominent cover appearance? Check. Cap's looks exactly the same as in every appearance over the next 30-40 years? Check First appearance and "first SA appearance" are not the same thing? Check. -J. Actually I do consider ST 114 as the 1st SA Cap appearance. Point being? Everyone already knew (or should have known) who captain America was when they "brought him back" in the SA. There was therefore context to the "imposter appearance" in ST 114. The same cannot be said for Valkyrie which was actually a first appearance of the character, irrespective of the subsequent ret-con. -J. +1 I've always viewed ST 114 as the 1st SA appearance of Cap's likeness. Not of Cap himself. For me Avengers 83 is the one. Doesn't matter to me if she's an imposter. Even if the cover showed The Lady Liberators staring up at a huge billboard of Val's likeness, and inside discussed her powers while viewing several detailed and unique images of her in action on the Avengers Mansion's big screen, I'd consider that her 1st app because I'd never known of, seen, or heard of the character prior to that issue. My Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divad Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 What's the title of this thread? SME 16 Starlin! Demon 1 Kirby! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the blob Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 What's the title of this thread? SME 16 Starlin! Demon 1 Kirby! So how much did you accept on SME 16? I'm not so impressed with Demon 1. That should sell for $44 or more. It kills me how I unloaded so many SME 15s cheap. Nice ones. Couldn't get 25% of guide for them at auction. Thankfully I paid almost nothing for them --. $9.99 from Koch. He couldn't unload them for a decent price either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ygogolak Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 So how much did you accept on SME 16? I'm not so impressed with Demon 1. That should sell for $44 or more. It kills me how I unloaded so many SME 15s cheap. Nice ones. Couldn't get 25% of guide for them at auction. Thankfully I paid almost nothing for them --. $9.99 from Koch. He couldn't unload them for a decent price either. $48 for the Kung-Fun. Not really that close to asking. $44 for Demon in VF is a good sell, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaillant Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 For the sake of Valkyrie the first appearance is clearly avengers 83. All the recons of characters and alias aren't first appearances. First appearance of the Alias maybe but not the character. Avengers 83 isn't the first appearance of a character, just the first published depiction of a character's likeness - as portrayed by an impostor. You might as well just go full Ween. Really now, you haven't even read the issues you're discussing, have you? In all 3 of the first appearances, the Enchantress is the one to give the Valkyrie's likeness/personality/powers to each character. In Avengers 83 she used the likeness on herself against the Avengers. In Hulk 142, she used the likeness on Samantha Pennington to attack the Hulk. In Defenders #4, she again used it on Barbara Norriss to help her with the Defenders. What in the world is the difference? But in Hulk #142 and in Defenders #4 the Valkyrie is effectively taking the place of the two women, while in Avengers #83, if I recall correctly the Enchantress is just appearing as the Valkyrie, but the Valkyrie is not there. Definitely the Avengers #83 needs re-reading, but anyway they are all important to me. (thumbs u Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaillant Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 The same cannot be said for Valkyrie which was actually a first appearance of the character, irrespective of the subsequent ret-con. But Jay, this is not a "ret-con". The stories weren’t altered, they just progressed one after the other, as they liked the idea and then properly introduced the character. This obsession with "first apperances" just clouds the fact that the creative process of writing happens in stages. They’re all important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
