fastballspecial Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 (edited) As I've said before, there is no definitive start/end to Copper/Bronze. As I've said before, no one cares what you think. I have the feeling that's not really true. (To the rest of you...why do you tolerate this?) Eventually he will get another vacation. I just scroll on past. Its hard to take someone seriously with posts like that. Credibility can be hard to keep when you irritate all those you are trying to a discussion with. Edited March 27, 2014 by Fastballspecial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxtrot70 Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 In all seriousness, for me, it's just like baseball cards. When they became shiny and hi-tech, that's when Copper started. In this case, it was the introduction of Marvel Fanfare #1, the precursor to the modern age. I remember getting my copy and saying to myself "Man, comics has really changed.". Comics (and BB cards) were no longer produced using the cheapest materials and was meant to be collectible versus being a childhood throw away. "Bagging" comics became the norm, although boarding would still take a few years before that became standard practice. It was also around this time I got out of comics. Hard to explain. Some of the stories were still written the same, but comics just had a different feel too them. Speculation mania may have exploded in the '90s, but it started in the '80s. Yeah, I'm rambling about my lost youth. Totally agree. Paper quality, ink styles, art w more detail due to higher sales and budgets, artist salaries were going up. Marketing was making the product more polished, which took away from the feel from the prior era. End of the spinner rack. I am glad I was able to buy comics from 7-11 and grocery store. Many great memories waking up at 6am to ride my bike over to store so i could get first pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Bronze age fan* Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 As I've said before, there is no definitive start/end to Copper/Bronze. Some books, like Batman, retained a Bronze age feel until Miller did Dark Knight (1986.) Some books, like New Teen Titans, had a definite Copper vibe, even though it started in 1980. Solid Bronze is to at least the end of Byrne's X-Men, in early 1981. Solid Copper is definitely Turtles #1 in 1984. What's between? A whole lot of fuzziness. Spidey, for example. What's the end of Bronze, beginning of Copper? Nothing serious happened for years with Spidey, after graduating from college in 185. So, would it be Hobgoblin? That's early 1983. What about Superman? Superman remained static throughout Bronze, until Byrne took over with Man of Steel. That's late 1986! Thor? That would be #337, in mid-83. X-Men? Even when Cockrum returned, it still had a Bronze feel. It took Paul Smith's arrival (#165) to shake things up, and X-Men finally started to "feel" different. 1981 is a bit too early for Copper....1984 is a bit too late for Bronze. Everything else is up for grabs. Transitional era. Cronze baby! Cronze!! By Cronze! Down with the Broppers! I understand trying to pick out key events in comics to define different ages. I just always thought of Silver comics as 60s, bronze comics as 70s and copper comics as 80s. To say all the comics changed on January 1 of 1970 or 1980 is silly, but those to me were the gateway times for the new age of the comic. And over that ten year span all those key events happened that defined that age. Not that I am right at all.....just the way I look at it. I always find this topic interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
50YrsCollctngCmcs Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) I collected from 1972 to 1982 with waning interest in those last couple of years. I started to come back to comics in the mid eighties and was shocked at what I was finding in comic stores. A totally different world than I had known. Rocketeer in the early eighties was my first hint things were different. I didn't care what the age was but it was no longer the super hero comics of my youth. No complaints though as after dabbling in the eighties I got hooked on the Vertigo line in the nineties. That phase ended too and I don't buy many new books anymore but will still pick up the occasional recommended read. Today's kids have it good with every age and genre available at the comic shop, in the library, on EBay! It's the Golden Age for the comic reader! Edited March 28, 2014 by 40YrsCollctngCmcs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guardian Comics Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Honestly, if you have to pinpoint it to one book, I really think you have to go with Dazzler #1. The importance of direct sales only is recognized by Marvel and that's what the CA is all about. Direct sales opens the doors to all the Indy publishers and the rest is history. If you want a time period 1981/1982 is the transition period, it starts from Dazzler #1 in 1981 as the first direct only book, followed by the limited series, a definite CA invention with Wolverine and Contest of Champions both in 1982. Lastly the birth of the Graphic Novel also in 1982, with the Death of Captain Marvel, The New Mutants and God Loves, Man Kills. Everything that personifies the CA, Secret Wars, Dark Knight, TMNT all exist because of the way that Marvel changed/expanded the comic business between 1981 and 1982. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rip Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) Funny because some say the origin of the term "Silver age" comes from a letter column in JLA 42 From Scott Taylor in 1965 "If you guys keep bringing back the heroes from the [1930s-1940s] Golden Age, people 20 years from now will be calling this decade the Silver Sixties!" But most the the debate now falls around Detective 225 and Showcase 4 for Silver age. I've even heard some people say Strange Adventures #9 (1st Cap Comet). (But Showcase 4 is by far the most accepted.) Bronze most of the debate falls with GL 76 and Conan 1 for Bronze. (GL 76 seems to be the most accepted starting point.) For the Golden Age many say Action 1 but sometimes the term is used loosely and goes as far back as Detective 1 or back to 1933 with Funnies on Parade. Copper is also less clear but from my understanding its around 1980/81 with Direct MKT only and with the big shake-ups at the top of DC and Marvel. If you look at DC comics Wiki they put it at 1980, but they put the end at 1985 with Crisis, which most I'm sure would agree is too soon. E-bay uses 1984-91 but I've never understood why. Turtles, George Orwell? Personally if I had to pick one single book, I would put it at DC Comics Presents 26. I would argue that the reintroduction of the New Teen Titans by Marv Wolfman brought about darker more realistic stories, crossovers and stronger continuity which had lasting changes that are still felt today. I think Joe and RMA bring some good info to the forum and I wouldn't put either of them on ignore, despite the strong personalities. Edited March 28, 2014 by Rip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockMyAmadeus Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Honestly, if you have to pinpoint it to one book, I really think you have to go with Dazzler #1. The importance of direct sales only is recognized by Marvel and that's what the CA is all about. Direct sales opens the doors to all the Indy publishers and the rest is history. If you want a time period 1981/1982 is the transition period, it starts from Dazzler #1 in 1981 as the first direct only book, followed by the limited series, a definite CA invention with Wolverine and Contest of Champions both in 1982. Lastly the birth of the Graphic Novel also in 1982, with the Death of Captain Marvel, The New Mutants and God Loves, Man Kills. Everything that personifies the CA, Secret Wars, Dark Knight, TMNT all exist because of the way that Marvel changed/expanded the comic business between 1981 and 1982. Jim This is a very strong argument. The dominance of the Direct market and decline of the newsstand was clearly the single defining event of the age. There is almost nothing that didn't change in the industry because of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockMyAmadeus Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I think Joe and RMA bring some good info to the forum and I wouldn't put either of them on ignore, despite the strong personalities. The difference is...and it's a biggie...I don't go around calling people names and insulting them because they disagree with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockMyAmadeus Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Not all of the characters have to change to mark the end or start of a new era. Never been the rule with previous eras. Every era beginnings have a little wiggle room. I definitely agree with that, that there's wiggle room. That's what I've been saying as well. The only problem I have is that the majority of DC's big names didn't change. Everyone points to NTT, and rightfully so...but it took Crisis (1985) to really do something different with the big guns. And if all the big guns at DC didn't change, I'm not really sure how the new era can be started. A lot of people make the same claim about the Silver Age and Marvel, and they make a good case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rip Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 You don't need all the big guns changed to start a new era, all it takes is a spark of something big. Just look at all the other eras as a template. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rip Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I think Joe and RMA bring some good info to the forum and I wouldn't put either of them on ignore, despite the strong personalities. The difference is...and it's a biggie...I don't go around calling people names and insulting them because they disagree with me. Sure he can be a big jerk and likely has a mass of people who put him on ignore, but don't let him get to you, I doubt its personal. Take it as a Souvenir, It's JC, it wouldn't be the same without him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimebuster Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Honestly, if you have to pinpoint it to one book, I really think you have to go with Dazzler #1. The importance of direct sales only is recognized by Marvel and that's what the CA is all about. Direct sales opens the doors to all the Indy publishers and the rest is history. If you want a time period 1981/1982 is the transition period, it starts from Dazzler #1 in 1981 as the first direct only book, followed by the limited series, a definite CA invention with Wolverine and Contest of Champions both in 1982. Lastly the birth of the Graphic Novel also in 1982, with the Death of Captain Marvel, The New Mutants and God Loves, Man Kills. Everything that personifies the CA, Secret Wars, Dark Knight, TMNT all exist because of the way that Marvel changed/expanded the comic business between 1981 and 1982. Jim +1 The direct market and the corresponding emergence of the independent publishers is the turning point for me as well. Sure, DC was stuck in their Bronze Age mentality for a long time, but... that's their problem. Indy publishers like Pacific, Eclipse and especially First (which was 1983) just weren't putting out Bronze Age material. And the experience of buying and reading comics from the direct market was completely different than it was getting stuff from a newsstand in the Bronze Age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rip Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Honestly, if you have to pinpoint it to one book, I really think you have to go with Dazzler #1. The importance of direct sales only is recognized by Marvel and that's what the CA is all about. Direct sales opens the doors to all the Indy publishers and the rest is history. If you want a time period 1981/1982 is the transition period, it starts from Dazzler #1 in 1981 as the first direct only book, followed by the limited series, a definite CA invention with Wolverine and Contest of Champions both in 1982. Lastly the birth of the Graphic Novel also in 1982, with the Death of Captain Marvel, The New Mutants and God Loves, Man Kills. Everything that personifies the CA, Secret Wars, Dark Knight, TMNT all exist because of the way that Marvel changed/expanded the comic business between 1981 and 1982. Jim +1 The direct market and the corresponding emergence of the independent publishers is the turning point for me as well. Sure, DC was stuck in their Bronze Age mentality for a long time, but... that's their problem. Indy publishers like Pacific, Eclipse and especially First (which was 1983) just weren't putting out Bronze Age material. And the experience of buying and reading comics from the direct market was completely different than it was getting stuff from a newsstand in the Bronze Age. One of the reasons why I brought up Camelot 3000 in 82 with its Direct MKT/Baxter paper /1st Maxi series Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockMyAmadeus Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 You don't need all the big guns changed to start a new era, all it takes is a spark of something big. Just look at all the other eras as a template. Right, but that's really the point, is it not? After all...the Silver Age "started" with Showcase #4 in 1956...and most usually agree with that...but for Marvel, the "Post-Code Atom Age" continued unabated, with monster, alien, and sci-fi books being published almost into 1963. For Marvel, it's fair to say that the Silver Age didn't start until 5 years after DC, in the late summer of 1961. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockMyAmadeus Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I think Joe and RMA bring some good info to the forum and I wouldn't put either of them on ignore, despite the strong personalities. The difference is...and it's a biggie...I don't go around calling people names and insulting them because they disagree with me. Sure he can be a big jerk and likely has a mass of people who put him on ignore, but don't let him get to you, I doubt its personal. Take it as a Souvenir, It's JC, it wouldn't be the same without him. It is *exceptionally* personal with him. JC has gone out of his way to make himself my personal troll. One need only see the comments he's made to me in the last two weeks to see it. It's been quite ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rip Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) You don't need all the big guns changed to start a new era, all it takes is a spark of something big. Just look at all the other eras as a template. Right, but that's really the point, is it not? After all...the Silver Age "started" with Showcase #4 in 1956...and most usually agree with that...but for Marvel, the "Post-Code Atom Age" continued unabated, with monster, alien, and sci-fi books being published almost into 1963. For Marvel, it's fair to say that the Silver Age didn't start until 5 years after DC, in the late summer of 1961. No its not once everything has changed does a new era start. Its the 1st major spark that marks the era change. For example Silver started with Flash it didn't wait until all of DC big guns got new origins/changes. Same with Bronze, it started with GL 76. Not everything had to change to announce the start. I never really heard of two major different starting points for Silver one begging 5 years later than the other. I've always just thought of Showcase 4 as the beginning point and that's it. But I've thought of the start of Marvel Silver was the end of Atlas in 57 and the return of Kirby shortly after. Even if you believe two major starting points with copper I think there has already been MANY strong points made for the end of Bronze and the start of Copper in 80/81 for both DC and Marvel. Edited March 28, 2014 by Rip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_collector Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 FWIW, how fast will those dealers start to change their "late Bronze" to "early Copper" stance now that Copper is heating up? I know, and these OS advisors will never be known for their intelligence and foresight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_collector Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I have the feeling that's not really true. I would bet real money that at least half the board thinks you're insane. They are just polite and don't tell you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_collector Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Wow, a whole page of "ignores" Same here, and it's highly amusing how OCD-overboard Rockhead here is. He's like Candyman, you mention his name a few times and "poof" there he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_collector Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Honestly, if you have to pinpoint it to one book, I really think you have to go with Dazzler #1. The importance of direct sales only is recognized by Marvel and that's what the CA is all about. Direct sales opens the doors to all the Indy publishers and the rest is history. If you want a time period 1981/1982 is the transition period, it starts from Dazzler #1 in 1981 as the first direct only book, followed by the limited series, a definite CA invention with Wolverine and Contest of Champions both in 1982. Lastly the birth of the Graphic Novel also in 1982, with the Death of Captain Marvel, The New Mutants and God Loves, Man Kills. Everything that personifies the CA, Secret Wars, Dark Knight, TMNT all exist because of the way that Marvel changed/expanded the comic business between 1981 and 1982. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
