What does PRESSING IT OUT mean exactly?

[mrmyst]

Collect low grade silver. Collect moderns. Collect mid grade golden age. Collect trades. Pursue only original owner collections that you find in the wild. Enjoy books for their art and stories rather than the fact that they sat untouched in someone's attic for fifty years. There are hundreds of reasons to collect, and if one isn't as "pure" as it once was, choose another. Condition isn't THAT important, manipulated or otherwise.

 

 

Man, do I disagree with this. None of us should be telling anyone how to collect. If searching out and finding very high grade books that have survived for years through preternatural care or blind luck is what floats a collectors boat, more power to them.

 

Also, if that were the main reason I collected, I would have punted, too.

 

How has pressing ruined that exactly? I have found thousands, THOUSANDS of untouched original owner books in the last year or two. All silver age, all high grade, all unmanipulated. I am not trying to tell people how to collect, I am saying that jettisoning an entire hobby because a small segment (slabbed high grade) has changed is unfortunate. These guys make it sound like every freaking silver age book above 9.0 has been ruined, and that's just not the case. It's just not as easy as it used to be to find what they are looking for and that has led to some serious bitterness.

 

This is where you are 1000x wrong. It isn't just high grade that are pressed, it is the complete range of book from 0.5 to 10.0, and even ungraded books as well

I feel I'm being pushed out of the hobby,because I prefer un-manipulated books.

Don't go.

Really I can understand why people sell all their books and go to Original Art,I'm almost there myself.

If you do, be careful.

[october]

Collect low grade silver. Collect moderns. Collect mid grade golden age. Collect trades. Pursue only original owner collections that you find in the wild. Enjoy books for their art and stories rather than the fact that they sat untouched in someone's attic for fifty years. There are hundreds of reasons to collect, and if one isn't as "pure" as it once was, choose another. Condition isn't THAT important, manipulated or otherwise.

 

 

Man, do I disagree with this. None of us should be telling anyone how to collect. If searching out and finding very high grade books that have survived for years through preternatural care or blind luck is what floats a collectors boat, more power to them.

 

Also, if that were the main reason I collected, I would have punted, too.

 

How has pressing ruined that exactly? I have found thousands, THOUSANDS of untouched original owner books in the last year or two. All silver age, all high grade, all unmanipulated. I am not trying to tell people how to collect, I am saying that jettisoning an entire hobby because a small segment (slabbed high grade) has changed is unfortunate. These guys make it sound like every freaking silver age book above 9.0 has been ruined, and that's just not the case. It's just not as easy as it used to be to find what they are looking for and that has led to some serious bitterness.

 

It has ruined it for them. Isn't that enough? I personally don't care. But I am not going to put my thoughts on the matter onto them. Gene and Nick and Tim Hui and lots of guys who went early and often into the UHG SA pool had their toys taken by the pressing game. There is no doubt about it. When you can crete a 9.4 or 9.6 with the right 9.0 or 9.2, it is game over.

 

High grade silver doesn't magically materialize in the ComicLink broom closet every fortnight. The amount of silver that hasn't been in circulation since they were purchased off the rack is astounding. If I can find them, they can find them.

 

If that's your theory - go find it - that's great. But in the time that I have been collecting, pressing has gone from a resto technique I had never heard of, to a "non-resto" technique that has dry mount presses in the top 100 huttest Ebay items.

 

Again, I don't care. I have had many of my books pressed. It is what it is. I just think it is silly to tell someone to go collect mid-grade Silver or trades when a huge part of their love of the hobby is unmolested gems. It smacks of pro-presser stalking horse.

 

My original post included the option for them to go find their own off the rack collections if high grade is the big draw. Posts that bemoan the loss of all high grade books smacks of the opposite. Anti-pressers who conveniently overlook other options for finding the comics they want outside of slabs and big auctions. Tim gets a pass obviously because of geography, maybe Nick as well to a slightly lesser degree, but those of us in the US have a wealth of opportunities for finding books at the source.

[batman_fan]

Collect low grade silver. Collect moderns. Collect mid grade golden age. Collect trades. Pursue only original owner collections that you find in the wild. Enjoy books for their art and stories rather than the fact that they sat untouched in someone's attic for fifty years. There are hundreds of reasons to collect, and if one isn't as "pure" as it once was, choose another. Condition isn't THAT important, manipulated or otherwise.

 

 

Man, do I disagree with this. None of us should be telling anyone how to collect. If searching out and finding very high grade books that have survived for years through preternatural care or blind luck is what floats a collectors boat, more power to them.

 

Also, if that were the main reason I collected, I would have punted, too.

 

How has pressing ruined that exactly? I have found thousands, THOUSANDS of untouched original owner books in the last year or two. All silver age, all high grade, all unmanipulated. I am not trying to tell people how to collect, I am saying that jettisoning an entire hobby because a small segment (slabbed high grade) has changed is unfortunate. These guys make it sound like every freaking silver age book above 9.0 has been ruined, and that's just not the case. It's just not as easy as it used to be to find what they are looking for and that has led to some serious bitterness.

 

This is where you are 1000x wrong. It isn't just high grade that are pressed, it is the complete range of book from 0.5 to 10.0, and even ungraded books as well

I feel I'm being pushed out of the hobby,because I prefer un-manipulated books.

Don't go.

Really I can understand why people sell all their books and go to Original Art,I'm almost there myself.

 

OA is getting real expensive as people have dumped their comics and moved to art. You even have some of the folks who are bin in to the CPR game trying to jump in to make some "easy money". I must admit a guilty pleasure watching them crash and burn.

[Logan510]

Wow. This should be stickied so it doesn't get lost.

 

Any thoughts on other 'non-additive' controversies? Disassembly and such?

 

I take some issue with the notion that "Pressing, without a doubt, makes pretty books." To me, it creates a lot of books that look unnaturally flat. I remember buying books off the racks back in the day, and by virtue of the way they were standing up, they were never perfectly flat. Others have told me about how pressing sometimes leads to greater translucency and or leaves subtle transfer stains. Some of the biggest pressers around readily tell me that they can almost always tell when a book has been pressed. Who started this fiction that you can't tell? I'll tell you who: pressers. Maybe you can't tell 100% of the time, but most of the time you can.

 

I remember back when Ewert was selling unnaturally squashed books on eBay back in maybe 2003 and me and Joe Collector were calling the books out for all being pressed. Because they all obviously were. You remember what people said back then? "No way could one man be pressing that many books, and why would he? Consider the time, cost and risks involved." Now we know that it takes minimal time, minimal cost and minimal risk to press a book. I hate to say "I told you so", but...I told you so.

 

Another great fiction was, "Pressing can only improve certain defects, so only certain books will be pressed." WRONG!!! I was just IM-ing two nights ago with a friend of mine who is a big presser. He told me he got a great looking copy of a certain DC key. He told me that it didn't have any defects he could see that could be improved by pressing. You know what I said? "BUT, YOU'RE GOING TO PRESS IT ANYWAY, RIGHT? BECAUSE THERE'S NO DOWNSIDE TO FRESHENING IT UP A LITTLE BIT." And his answer, even though he told me it was probably unimproveable? "OF COURSE".

 

Of course, pressing was just the gateway drug into further shenanigans - microtrimming, staple popping, solvent cleaning, spine realignment, etc. Remember when popping out staples was taboo? Now they're popped out all the time. Who cares if this spine realignment technique can be done without removing the staples. Do you think it actually is? I mean, there's no downside to popping out the staples, everybody does it, so why wouldn't they do it? And some of the before-and-after book scans that have been posted recently show clear evidence of solvent-based cleaning. You think these stains are being Wonder Breaded away (especially now that Hostess is in bankruptcy, )? I'm told by those in the know that cleaning with naphtha is now a common practice.

 

I'm sorry, but "disclosure" was always a big farce. All it takes is one person to buy a book and CPR (crack-press-resub) it for all the book's history and disclosure to be wiped away if someone chose to do so (as they inevitably would). If I was a CPR hustler, of course I'd say I support disclosure, knowing how easy it would be to circumvent the rules.

 

I used to marvel at old books in great condition that had survived the ravages of time. That's what made Pedigree-quality finds so special. Now any book can roll back time with a little naphtha Botox treatment and some time in the Pressing sauna. Even pedigree books are pressed as a matter of course. I guess those Gaines File Copies grading 9.6 just weren't pretty enough; let's see if we can get a 9.8! The magic is totally and utterly gone for me and others. No book impresses me anymore, because I know virtually every exceptional book has been worked on, even if it was allegedly "unimproveable". There is no downside. No one wants to take a chance they're leaving 0.2 of a grade on the table and all the money that means. FACT.

 

There is no rolling back time. The horse has left the barn and run the Kentucky Derby, there's no getting it back in; Pandora's Box has been open for a good decade (and yeah, people pressed books back in the day, but more books are probably pressed in a month or two these days than they were in the first 40 years of this hobby). Unfortunately, the hobby is what the hobby is. There's no going back. You all got the hobby you deserve. Congratulations.

 

Superb stuff, Gene.

 

I bought my first comic in 1969 and started collecting in 1973. Roll forward thirty-five years to 2008 and I completely stopped and sold everything, because as you say above, 'the magic was gone', stripped away by greed and vanity.

 

People wonder why I remain fiercely vocal about 'manipulation' and the associated shenanigans and fraud.

 

Because you robbed me of a hobby that I loved - and I had zero say in the matter. Cheers!

 

I never understood, and will never understand, why people have completely given up on the hobby due to pressing. Why? Because some high grade specimens have been manipulated? So what? Was nothing else about this hobby compelling other than the prospect of owning some untouched book? If high grade slabs are ruined, collect something else. Collect low grade silver. Collect moderns. Collect mid grade golden age. Collect trades. Pursue only original owner collections that you find in the wild. Enjoy books for their art and stories rather than the fact that they sat untouched in someone's attic for fifty years. There are hundreds of reasons to collect, and if one isn't as "pure" as it once was, choose another. Condition isn't THAT important, manipulated or otherwise.

 

I guess I don't have much sympathy for "I took my ball and wen't home" posts. I know it would take more than that to get me to quit something I loved. At the core of all of this is the art, stories, nostalgia, history and general awesomeness of what we choose to like. If you let a dry mount press take all of that away.....well.....seems like you are throwing more than one baby out with the bathwater to me.

 

No, you don't and you won't.

 

You press books, Andy. You press lots of books. Your feelings towards those books is obviously different to mine.

 

Serious question. How do you feel about the unmanipulated books you sell as a dealer to people you know to have books pressed?

[october]

Find someone who collected off the rack and buy their collection.

 

But rather than marvel at how well that collection was preserved....milk every last penny out of it by pressing the mess out of it.

 

Rinse and repeat

 

It's a free world man. Find them and "save" them first.

[MCMiles]

 

If that's your theory - go find it - that's great. But in the time that I have been collecting, pressing has gone from a resto technique I had never heard of, to a "non-resto" technique that has dry mount presses in the top 100 huttest Ebay items.

 

Again, I don't care. I have had many of my books pressed. It is what it is. I just think it is silly to tell someone to go collect mid-grade Silver or trades when a huge part of their love of the hobby is unmolested gems. It smacks of pro-presser stalking horse.

 

Is Jabba on that list?

[mrmyst]

Wow. This should be stickied so it doesn't get lost.

 

Any thoughts on other 'non-additive' controversies? Disassembly and such?

 

I take some issue with the notion that "Pressing, without a doubt, makes pretty books." To me, it creates a lot of books that look unnaturally flat. I remember buying books off the racks back in the day, and by virtue of the way they were standing up, they were never perfectly flat. Others have told me about how pressing sometimes leads to greater translucency and or leaves subtle transfer stains. Some of the biggest pressers around readily tell me that they can almost always tell when a book has been pressed. Who started this fiction that you can't tell? I'll tell you who: pressers. Maybe you can't tell 100% of the time, but most of the time you can.

 

I remember back when Ewert was selling unnaturally squashed books on eBay back in maybe 2003 and me and Joe Collector were calling the books out for all being pressed. Because they all obviously were. You remember what people said back then? "No way could one man be pressing that many books, and why would he? Consider the time, cost and risks involved." Now we know that it takes minimal time, minimal cost and minimal risk to press a book. I hate to say "I told you so", but...I told you so.

 

Another great fiction was, "Pressing can only improve certain defects, so only certain books will be pressed." WRONG!!! I was just IM-ing two nights ago with a friend of mine who is a big presser. He told me he got a great looking copy of a certain DC key. He told me that it didn't have any defects he could see that could be improved by pressing. You know what I said? "BUT, YOU'RE GOING TO PRESS IT ANYWAY, RIGHT? BECAUSE THERE'S NO DOWNSIDE TO FRESHENING IT UP A LITTLE BIT." And his answer, even though he told me it was probably unimproveable? "OF COURSE".

 

Of course, pressing was just the gateway drug into further shenanigans - microtrimming, staple popping, solvent cleaning, spine realignment, etc. Remember when popping out staples was taboo? Now they're popped out all the time. Who cares if this spine realignment technique can be done without removing the staples. Do you think it actually is? I mean, there's no downside to popping out the staples, everybody does it, so why wouldn't they do it? And some of the before-and-after book scans that have been posted recently show clear evidence of solvent-based cleaning. You think these stains are being Wonder Breaded away (especially now that Hostess is in bankruptcy, )? I'm told by those in the know that cleaning with naphtha is now a common practice.

 

I'm sorry, but "disclosure" was always a big farce. All it takes is one person to buy a book and CPR (crack-press-resub) it for all the book's history and disclosure to be wiped away if someone chose to do so (as they inevitably would). If I was a CPR hustler, of course I'd say I support disclosure, knowing how easy it would be to circumvent the rules.

 

I used to marvel at old books in great condition that had survived the ravages of time. That's what made Pedigree-quality finds so special. Now any book can roll back time with a little naphtha Botox treatment and some time in the Pressing sauna. Even pedigree books are pressed as a matter of course. I guess those Gaines File Copies grading 9.6 just weren't pretty enough; let's see if we can get a 9.8! The magic is totally and utterly gone for me and others. No book impresses me anymore, because I know virtually every exceptional book has been worked on, even if it was allegedly "unimproveable". There is no downside. No one wants to take a chance they're leaving 0.2 of a grade on the table and all the money that means. FACT.

 

There is no rolling back time. The horse has left the barn and run the Kentucky Derby, there's no getting it back in; Pandora's Box has been open for a good decade (and yeah, people pressed books back in the day, but more books are probably pressed in a month or two these days than they were in the first 40 years of this hobby). Unfortunately, the hobby is what the hobby is. There's no going back. You all got the hobby you deserve. Congratulations.

 

Superb stuff, Gene.

 

I bought my first comic in 1969 and started collecting in 1973. Roll forward thirty-five years to 2008 and I completely stopped and sold everything, because as you say above, 'the magic was gone', stripped away by greed and vanity.

 

People wonder why I remain fiercely vocal about 'manipulation' and the associated shenanigans and fraud.

 

Because you robbed me of a hobby that I loved - and I had zero say in the matter. Cheers!

 

I never understood, and will never understand, why people have completely given up on the hobby due to pressing. Why? Because some high grade specimens have been manipulated? So what? Was nothing else about this hobby compelling other than the prospect of owning some untouched book? If high grade slabs are ruined, collect something else. Collect low grade silver. Collect moderns. Collect mid grade golden age. Collect trades. Pursue only original owner collections that you find in the wild. Enjoy books for their art and stories rather than the fact that they sat untouched in someone's attic for fifty years. There are hundreds of reasons to collect, and if one isn't as "pure" as it once was, choose another. Condition isn't THAT important, manipulated or otherwise.

 

I guess I don't have much sympathy for "I took my ball and wen't home" posts. I know it would take more than that to get me to quit something I loved. At the core of all of this is the art, stories, nostalgia, history and general awesomeness of what we choose to like. If you let a dry mount press take all of that away.....well.....seems like you are throwing more than one baby out with the bathwater to me.

 

No, you don't and you won't.

 

You press books, Andy. You press lots of books. Your feelings towards those books is obviously different to mine.

 

Serious question. How do you feel about the unmanipulated books you sell as a dealer to people you know to have books pressed?

[seanfingh]

Collect low grade silver. Collect moderns. Collect mid grade golden age. Collect trades. Pursue only original owner collections that you find in the wild. Enjoy books for their art and stories rather than the fact that they sat untouched in someone's attic for fifty years. There are hundreds of reasons to collect, and if one isn't as "pure" as it once was, choose another. Condition isn't THAT important, manipulated or otherwise.

 

 

Man, do I disagree with this. None of us should be telling anyone how to collect. If searching out and finding very high grade books that have survived for years through preternatural care or blind luck is what floats a collectors boat, more power to them.

 

Also, if that were the main reason I collected, I would have punted, too.

 

How has pressing ruined that exactly? I have found thousands, THOUSANDS of untouched original owner books in the last year or two. All silver age, all high grade, all unmanipulated. I am not trying to tell people how to collect, I am saying that jettisoning an entire hobby because a small segment (slabbed high grade) has changed is unfortunate. These guys make it sound like every freaking silver age book above 9.0 has been ruined, and that's just not the case. It's just not as easy as it used to be to find what they are looking for and that has led to some serious bitterness.

 

It has ruined it for them. Isn't that enough? I personally don't care. But I am not going to put my thoughts on the matter onto them. Gene and Nick and Tim Hui and lots of guys who went early and often into the UHG SA pool had their toys taken by the pressing game. There is no doubt about it. When you can crete a 9.4 or 9.6 with the right 9.0 or 9.2, it is game over.

 

High grade silver doesn't magically materialize in the ComicLink broom closet every fortnight. The amount of silver that hasn't been in circulation since they were purchased off the rack is astounding. If I can find them, they can find them.

 

If that's your theory - go find it - that's great. But in the time that I have been collecting, pressing has gone from a resto technique I had never heard of, to a "non-resto" technique that has dry mount presses in the top 100 huttest Ebay items.

 

Again, I don't care. I have had many of my books pressed. It is what it is. I just think it is silly to tell someone to go collect mid-grade Silver or trades when a huge part of their love of the hobby is unmolested gems. It smacks of pro-presser stalking horse.

 

My original post included the option for them to go find their own off the rack collections if high grade is the big draw. Posts that bemoan the loss of all high grade books smacks of the opposite. Anti-pressers who conveniently overlook other options for finding the comics they want outside of slabs and big auctions. Tim gets a pass obviously because of geography, maybe Nick as well to a slightly lesser degree, but those of us in the US have a wealth of opportunities for finding books at the source.

 

Not my idea of a hobby. YMMV.

 

 

[arexcrooke]

 

If that's your theory - go find it - that's great. But in the time that I have been collecting, pressing has gone from a resto technique I had never heard of, to a "non-resto" technique that has dry mount presses in the top 100 huttest Ebay items.

 

Again, I don't care. I have had many of my books pressed. It is what it is. I just think it is silly to tell someone to go collect mid-grade Silver or trades when a huge part of their love of the hobby is unmolested gems. It smacks of pro-presser stalking horse.

 

Is Jabba on that list?

[Logan510]

Collect low grade silver. Collect moderns. Collect mid grade golden age. Collect trades. Pursue only original owner collections that you find in the wild. Enjoy books for their art and stories rather than the fact that they sat untouched in someone's attic for fifty years. There are hundreds of reasons to collect, and if one isn't as "pure" as it once was, choose another. Condition isn't THAT important, manipulated or otherwise.

 

 

Man, do I disagree with this. None of us should be telling anyone how to collect. If searching out and finding very high grade books that have survived for years through preternatural care or blind luck is what floats a collectors boat, more power to them.

 

Also, if that were the main reason I collected, I would have punted, too.

 

How has pressing ruined that exactly? I have found thousands, THOUSANDS of untouched original owner books in the last year or two. All silver age, all high grade, all unmanipulated. I am not trying to tell people how to collect, I am saying that jettisoning an entire hobby because a small segment (slabbed high grade) has changed is unfortunate. These guys make it sound like every freaking silver age book above 9.0 has been ruined, and that's just not the case. It's just not as easy as it used to be to find what they are looking for and that has led to some serious bitterness.

 

This is where you are 1000x wrong. It isn't just high grade that are pressed, it is the complete range of book from 0.5 to 10.0, and even ungraded books as well

I feel I'm being pushed out of the hobby,because I prefer un-manipulated books.

Don't go.

Really I can understand why people sell all their books and go to Original Art,I'm almost there myself.

 

OA is getting real expensive as people have dumped their comics and moved to art. You even have some of the folks who are bin in to the CPR game trying to jump in to make some "easy money". I must admit a guilty pleasure watching them crash and burn.

 

The way some of these guys feel about pressing is how I sometimes feel about the OA game.

[batman_fan]

Collect low grade silver. Collect moderns. Collect mid grade golden age. Collect trades. Pursue only original owner collections that you find in the wild. Enjoy books for their art and stories rather than the fact that they sat untouched in someone's attic for fifty years. There are hundreds of reasons to collect, and if one isn't as "pure" as it once was, choose another. Condition isn't THAT important, manipulated or otherwise.

 

 

Man, do I disagree with this. None of us should be telling anyone how to collect. If searching out and finding very high grade books that have survived for years through preternatural care or blind luck is what floats a collectors boat, more power to them.

 

Also, if that were the main reason I collected, I would have punted, too.

 

How has pressing ruined that exactly? I have found thousands, THOUSANDS of untouched original owner books in the last year or two. All silver age, all high grade, all unmanipulated. I am not trying to tell people how to collect, I am saying that jettisoning an entire hobby because a small segment (slabbed high grade) has changed is unfortunate. These guys make it sound like every freaking silver age book above 9.0 has been ruined, and that's just not the case. It's just not as easy as it used to be to find what they are looking for and that has led to some serious bitterness.

 

It has ruined it for them. Isn't that enough? I personally don't care. But I am not going to put my thoughts on the matter onto them. Gene and Nick and Tim Hui and lots of guys who went early and often into the UHG SA pool had their toys taken by the pressing game. There is no doubt about it. When you can crete a 9.4 or 9.6 with the right 9.0 or 9.2, it is game over.

 

High grade silver doesn't magically materialize in the ComicLink broom closet every fortnight. The amount of silver that hasn't been in circulation since they were purchased off the rack is astounding. If I can find them, they can find them.

 

If that's your theory - go find it - that's great. But in the time that I have been collecting, pressing has gone from a resto technique I had never heard of, to a "non-resto" technique that has dry mount presses in the top 100 huttest Ebay items.

 

Again, I don't care. I have had many of my books pressed. It is what it is. I just think it is silly to tell someone to go collect mid-grade Silver or trades when a huge part of their love of the hobby is unmolested gems. It smacks of pro-presser stalking horse.

 

My original post included the option for them to go find their own off the rack collections if high grade is the big draw. Posts that bemoan the loss of all high grade books smacks of the opposite. Anti-pressers who conveniently overlook other options for finding the comics they want outside of slabs and big auctions. Tim gets a pass obviously because of geography, maybe Nick as well to a slightly lesser degree, but those of us in the US have a wealth of opportunities for finding books at the source.

 

Unfortunately, I have a job that consumes about 60hrs a week, a wife and child I enjoy spending time with, and a limited amount of time to try and find collections. I have spent several years advertising in local papers and craigslist. I watch craigslist weekly, etc. In the past 25+ years of actively looking I have found a total of about 6 GA and SA collections. Of those collections, I would say average on the GA is VG with a few in the VFN range and about the same for SA. So spending some of my time has yielded no high grade pedigree quality collections.

[Logan510]

Collect low grade silver. Collect moderns. Collect mid grade golden age. Collect trades. Pursue only original owner collections that you find in the wild. Enjoy books for their art and stories rather than the fact that they sat untouched in someone's attic for fifty years. There are hundreds of reasons to collect, and if one isn't as "pure" as it once was, choose another. Condition isn't THAT important, manipulated or otherwise.

 

 

Man, do I disagree with this. None of us should be telling anyone how to collect. If searching out and finding very high grade books that have survived for years through preternatural care or blind luck is what floats a collectors boat, more power to them.

 

Also, if that were the main reason I collected, I would have punted, too.

 

How has pressing ruined that exactly? I have found thousands, THOUSANDS of untouched original owner books in the last year or two. All silver age, all high grade, all unmanipulated. I am not trying to tell people how to collect, I am saying that jettisoning an entire hobby because a small segment (slabbed high grade) has changed is unfortunate. These guys make it sound like every freaking silver age book above 9.0 has been ruined, and that's just not the case. It's just not as easy as it used to be to find what they are looking for and that has led to some serious bitterness.

 

It has ruined it for them. Isn't that enough? I personally don't care. But I am not going to put my thoughts on the matter onto them. Gene and Nick and Tim Hui and lots of guys who went early and often into the UHG SA pool had their toys taken by the pressing game. There is no doubt about it. When you can crete a 9.4 or 9.6 with the right 9.0 or 9.2, it is game over.

 

High grade silver doesn't magically materialize in the ComicLink broom closet every fortnight. The amount of silver that hasn't been in circulation since they were purchased off the rack is astounding. If I can find them, they can find them.

 

If that's your theory - go find it - that's great. But in the time that I have been collecting, pressing has gone from a resto technique I had never heard of, to a "non-resto" technique that has dry mount presses in the top 100 huttest Ebay items.

 

Again, I don't care. I have had many of my books pressed. It is what it is. I just think it is silly to tell someone to go collect mid-grade Silver or trades when a huge part of their love of the hobby is unmolested gems. It smacks of pro-presser stalking horse.

 

My original post included the option for them to go find their own off the rack collections if high grade is the big draw. Posts that bemoan the loss of all high grade books smacks of the opposite. Anti-pressers who conveniently overlook other options for finding the comics they want outside of slabs and big auctions. Tim gets a pass obviously because of geography, maybe Nick as well to a slightly lesser degree, but those of us in the US have a wealth of opportunities for finding books at the source.

 

Not my idea of a hobby. YMMV.

 

 

So is your problem that these guys can't easily find what they're looking for or that Andy doesn't really care that much?

[october]

Not my idea of a hobby. YMMV.

 

 

Fair enough. (thumbs u

 

Few good things in life come easy.

[VintageComics]

Collect low grade silver. Collect moderns. Collect mid grade golden age. Collect trades. Pursue only original owner collections that you find in the wild. Enjoy books for their art and stories rather than the fact that they sat untouched in someone's attic for fifty years. There are hundreds of reasons to collect, and if one isn't as "pure" as it once was, choose another. Condition isn't THAT important, manipulated or otherwise.

 

 

Man, do I disagree with this. None of us should be telling anyone how to collect. If searching out and finding very high grade books that have survived for years through preternatural care or blind luck is what floats a collectors boat, more power to them.

 

Also, if that were the main reason I collected, I would have punted, too.

 

How has pressing ruined that exactly? I have found thousands, THOUSANDS of untouched original owner books in the last year or two. All silver age, all high grade, all unmanipulated. I am not trying to tell people how to collect, I am saying that jettisoning an entire hobby because a small segment (slabbed high grade) has changed is unfortunate. These guys make it sound like every freaking silver age book above 9.0 has been ruined, and that's just not the case. It's just not as easy as it used to be to find what they are looking for and that has led to some serious bitterness.

 

This is where you are 1000x wrong. It isn't just high grade that are pressed, it is the complete range of book from 0.5 to 10.0, and even ungraded books as well

I feel I'm being pushed out of the hobby,because I prefer un-manipulated books.

Don't go.

Really I can understand why people sell all their books and go to Original Art,I'm almost there myself.

 

OA is getting real expensive as people have dumped their comics and moved to art. You even have some of the folks who are bin in to the CPR game trying to jump in to make some "easy money". I must admit a guilty pleasure watching them crash and burn.

 

Or you are assuming that they tried to make a killing and people are experiencing "crash and burn" in the OA game because they didn't intend to make any money from it but rather they simply had an appreciation for the art form and found out that it too has shenanigans that are on par with any other hobby.

 

October is right, people can choose what they collect and they can choose whether they adapt or not, because nothing is really static indefinitely.

 

One area where I think those that dislike pressing failed to act is when they decided that they wouldn't pay "next grade" prices for unpressed books. I've said it many times over the years but had never gotten a reply that I can remember. Had this happened, pressing wouldn't have been profitable, unpressed books would have been advertised as such and everyone would be happy.

 

There are at least two sides to the story.

 

The way some of these guys feel about pressing is how I sometimes feel about the OA game.

 

Exactly.

[seanfingh]

 

If that's your theory - go find it - that's great. But in the time that I have been collecting, pressing has gone from a resto technique I had never heard of, to a "non-resto" technique that has dry mount presses in the top 100 huttest Ebay items.

 

Again, I don't care. I have had many of my books pressed. It is what it is. I just think it is silly to tell someone to go collect mid-grade Silver or trades when a huge part of their love of the hobby is unmolested gems. It smacks of pro-presser stalking horse.

 

Is Jabba on that list?

 

Dammit. Stupid IE spell check. I also may have missed it with all the foam flecks I shot at the screen.

[batman_fan]

Wow. This should be stickied so it doesn't get lost.

 

Any thoughts on other 'non-additive' controversies? Disassembly and such?

 

I take some issue with the notion that "Pressing, without a doubt, makes pretty books." To me, it creates a lot of books that look unnaturally flat. I remember buying books off the racks back in the day, and by virtue of the way they were standing up, they were never perfectly flat. Others have told me about how pressing sometimes leads to greater translucency and or leaves subtle transfer stains. Some of the biggest pressers around readily tell me that they can almost always tell when a book has been pressed. Who started this fiction that you can't tell? I'll tell you who: pressers. Maybe you can't tell 100% of the time, but most of the time you can.

 

I remember back when Ewert was selling unnaturally squashed books on eBay back in maybe 2003 and me and Joe Collector were calling the books out for all being pressed. Because they all obviously were. You remember what people said back then? "No way could one man be pressing that many books, and why would he? Consider the time, cost and risks involved." Now we know that it takes minimal time, minimal cost and minimal risk to press a book. I hate to say "I told you so", but...I told you so.

 

Another great fiction was, "Pressing can only improve certain defects, so only certain books will be pressed." WRONG!!! I was just IM-ing two nights ago with a friend of mine who is a big presser. He told me he got a great looking copy of a certain DC key. He told me that it didn't have any defects he could see that could be improved by pressing. You know what I said? "BUT, YOU'RE GOING TO PRESS IT ANYWAY, RIGHT? BECAUSE THERE'S NO DOWNSIDE TO FRESHENING IT UP A LITTLE BIT." And his answer, even though he told me it was probably unimproveable? "OF COURSE".

 

Of course, pressing was just the gateway drug into further shenanigans - microtrimming, staple popping, solvent cleaning, spine realignment, etc. Remember when popping out staples was taboo? Now they're popped out all the time. Who cares if this spine realignment technique can be done without removing the staples. Do you think it actually is? I mean, there's no downside to popping out the staples, everybody does it, so why wouldn't they do it? And some of the before-and-after book scans that have been posted recently show clear evidence of solvent-based cleaning. You think these stains are being Wonder Breaded away (especially now that Hostess is in bankruptcy, )? I'm told by those in the know that cleaning with naphtha is now a common practice.

 

I'm sorry, but "disclosure" was always a big farce. All it takes is one person to buy a book and CPR (crack-press-resub) it for all the book's history and disclosure to be wiped away if someone chose to do so (as they inevitably would). If I was a CPR hustler, of course I'd say I support disclosure, knowing how easy it would be to circumvent the rules.

 

I used to marvel at old books in great condition that had survived the ravages of time. That's what made Pedigree-quality finds so special. Now any book can roll back time with a little naphtha Botox treatment and some time in the Pressing sauna. Even pedigree books are pressed as a matter of course. I guess those Gaines File Copies grading 9.6 just weren't pretty enough; let's see if we can get a 9.8! The magic is totally and utterly gone for me and others. No book impresses me anymore, because I know virtually every exceptional book has been worked on, even if it was allegedly "unimproveable". There is no downside. No one wants to take a chance they're leaving 0.2 of a grade on the table and all the money that means. FACT.

 

There is no rolling back time. The horse has left the barn and run the Kentucky Derby, there's no getting it back in; Pandora's Box has been open for a good decade (and yeah, people pressed books back in the day, but more books are probably pressed in a month or two these days than they were in the first 40 years of this hobby). Unfortunately, the hobby is what the hobby is. There's no going back. You all got the hobby you deserve. Congratulations.

 

Superb stuff, Gene.

 

I bought my first comic in 1969 and started collecting in 1973. Roll forward thirty-five years to 2008 and I completely stopped and sold everything, because as you say above, 'the magic was gone', stripped away by greed and vanity.

 

People wonder why I remain fiercely vocal about 'manipulation' and the associated shenanigans and fraud.

 

Because you robbed me of a hobby that I loved - and I had zero say in the matter. Cheers!

 

I never understood, and will never understand, why people have completely given up on the hobby due to pressing. Why? Because some high grade specimens have been manipulated? So what? Was nothing else about this hobby compelling other than the prospect of owning some untouched book? If high grade slabs are ruined, collect something else. Collect low grade silver. Collect moderns. Collect mid grade golden age. Collect trades. Pursue only original owner collections that you find in the wild. Enjoy books for their art and stories rather than the fact that they sat untouched in someone's attic for fifty years. There are hundreds of reasons to collect, and if one isn't as "pure" as it once was, choose another. Condition isn't THAT important, manipulated or otherwise.

 

I guess I don't have much sympathy for "I took my ball and wen't home" posts. I know it would take more than that to get me to quit something I loved. At the core of all of this is the art, stories, nostalgia, history and general awesomeness of what we choose to like. If you let a dry mount press take all of that away.....well.....seems like you are throwing more than one baby out with the bathwater to me.

 

No, you don't and you won't.

 

You press books, Andy. You press lots of books. Your feelings towards those books is obviously different to mine.

 

Serious question. How do you feel about the unmanipulated books you sell as a dealer to people you know to have books pressed?

 

That's easy. If you are selling anything of decent value, have one of the restoration companies restore it in a way that it will get the highest blue label, get it graded, and sell it. If you don't, 100% it will be done. Why leave the money on the table for someone else to pick up because it will get picked up. I have watch way to many people leave a ton of money on the table by not getting the book restored first.

[Logan510]

Wow. This should be stickied so it doesn't get lost.

 

Any thoughts on other 'non-additive' controversies? Disassembly and such?

 

I take some issue with the notion that "Pressing, without a doubt, makes pretty books." To me, it creates a lot of books that look unnaturally flat. I remember buying books off the racks back in the day, and by virtue of the way they were standing up, they were never perfectly flat. Others have told me about how pressing sometimes leads to greater translucency and or leaves subtle transfer stains. Some of the biggest pressers around readily tell me that they can almost always tell when a book has been pressed. Who started this fiction that you can't tell? I'll tell you who: pressers. Maybe you can't tell 100% of the time, but most of the time you can.

 

I remember back when Ewert was selling unnaturally squashed books on eBay back in maybe 2003 and me and Joe Collector were calling the books out for all being pressed. Because they all obviously were. You remember what people said back then? "No way could one man be pressing that many books, and why would he? Consider the time, cost and risks involved." Now we know that it takes minimal time, minimal cost and minimal risk to press a book. I hate to say "I told you so", but...I told you so.

 

Another great fiction was, "Pressing can only improve certain defects, so only certain books will be pressed." WRONG!!! I was just IM-ing two nights ago with a friend of mine who is a big presser. He told me he got a great looking copy of a certain DC key. He told me that it didn't have any defects he could see that could be improved by pressing. You know what I said? "BUT, YOU'RE GOING TO PRESS IT ANYWAY, RIGHT? BECAUSE THERE'S NO DOWNSIDE TO FRESHENING IT UP A LITTLE BIT." And his answer, even though he told me it was probably unimproveable? "OF COURSE".

 

Of course, pressing was just the gateway drug into further shenanigans - microtrimming, staple popping, solvent cleaning, spine realignment, etc. Remember when popping out staples was taboo? Now they're popped out all the time. Who cares if this spine realignment technique can be done without removing the staples. Do you think it actually is? I mean, there's no downside to popping out the staples, everybody does it, so why wouldn't they do it? And some of the before-and-after book scans that have been posted recently show clear evidence of solvent-based cleaning. You think these stains are being Wonder Breaded away (especially now that Hostess is in bankruptcy, )? I'm told by those in the know that cleaning with naphtha is now a common practice.

 

I'm sorry, but "disclosure" was always a big farce. All it takes is one person to buy a book and CPR (crack-press-resub) it for all the book's history and disclosure to be wiped away if someone chose to do so (as they inevitably would). If I was a CPR hustler, of course I'd say I support disclosure, knowing how easy it would be to circumvent the rules.

 

I used to marvel at old books in great condition that had survived the ravages of time. That's what made Pedigree-quality finds so special. Now any book can roll back time with a little naphtha Botox treatment and some time in the Pressing sauna. Even pedigree books are pressed as a matter of course. I guess those Gaines File Copies grading 9.6 just weren't pretty enough; let's see if we can get a 9.8! The magic is totally and utterly gone for me and others. No book impresses me anymore, because I know virtually every exceptional book has been worked on, even if it was allegedly "unimproveable". There is no downside. No one wants to take a chance they're leaving 0.2 of a grade on the table and all the money that means. FACT.

 

There is no rolling back time. The horse has left the barn and run the Kentucky Derby, there's no getting it back in; Pandora's Box has been open for a good decade (and yeah, people pressed books back in the day, but more books are probably pressed in a month or two these days than they were in the first 40 years of this hobby). Unfortunately, the hobby is what the hobby is. There's no going back. You all got the hobby you deserve. Congratulations.

 

Superb stuff, Gene.

 

I bought my first comic in 1969 and started collecting in 1973. Roll forward thirty-five years to 2008 and I completely stopped and sold everything, because as you say above, 'the magic was gone', stripped away by greed and vanity.

 

People wonder why I remain fiercely vocal about 'manipulation' and the associated shenanigans and fraud.

 

Because you robbed me of a hobby that I loved - and I had zero say in the matter. Cheers!

 

I never understood, and will never understand, why people have completely given up on the hobby due to pressing. Why? Because some high grade specimens have been manipulated? So what? Was nothing else about this hobby compelling other than the prospect of owning some untouched book? If high grade slabs are ruined, collect something else. Collect low grade silver. Collect moderns. Collect mid grade golden age. Collect trades. Pursue only original owner collections that you find in the wild. Enjoy books for their art and stories rather than the fact that they sat untouched in someone's attic for fifty years. There are hundreds of reasons to collect, and if one isn't as "pure" as it once was, choose another. Condition isn't THAT important, manipulated or otherwise.

 

I guess I don't have much sympathy for "I took my ball and wen't home" posts. I know it would take more than that to get me to quit something I loved. At the core of all of this is the art, stories, nostalgia, history and general awesomeness of what we choose to like. If you let a dry mount press take all of that away.....well.....seems like you are throwing more than one baby out with the bathwater to me.

 

No, you don't and you won't.

 

You press books, Andy. You press lots of books. Your feelings towards those books is obviously different to mine.

 

Serious question. How do you feel about the unmanipulated books you sell as a dealer to people you know to have books pressed?

 

That's easy. If you are selling anything of decent value, have one of the restoration companies restore it in a way that it will get the highest blue label, get it graded, and sell it. If you don't, 100% it will be done. Why leave the money on the table for someone else to pick up because it will get picked up. I have watch way to many people leave a ton of money on the table by not getting the book restored first.

 

I honestly hope Nick answers because I'm genuinely interested in his thoughts on this.

[bababooey]

How do you feel about the unmanipulated books you sell as a dealer to people you know to have books pressed?

 

[seanfingh]

Collect low grade silver. Collect moderns. Collect mid grade golden age. Collect trades. Pursue only original owner collections that you find in the wild. Enjoy books for their art and stories rather than the fact that they sat untouched in someone's attic for fifty years. There are hundreds of reasons to collect, and if one isn't as "pure" as it once was, choose another. Condition isn't THAT important, manipulated or otherwise.

 

 

Man, do I disagree with this. None of us should be telling anyone how to collect. If searching out and finding very high grade books that have survived for years through preternatural care or blind luck is what floats a collectors boat, more power to them.

 

Also, if that were the main reason I collected, I would have punted, too.

 

How has pressing ruined that exactly? I have found thousands, THOUSANDS of untouched original owner books in the last year or two. All silver age, all high grade, all unmanipulated. I am not trying to tell people how to collect, I am saying that jettisoning an entire hobby because a small segment (slabbed high grade) has changed is unfortunate. These guys make it sound like every freaking silver age book above 9.0 has been ruined, and that's just not the case. It's just not as easy as it used to be to find what they are looking for and that has led to some serious bitterness.

 

It has ruined it for them. Isn't that enough? I personally don't care. But I am not going to put my thoughts on the matter onto them. Gene and Nick and Tim Hui and lots of guys who went early and often into the UHG SA pool had their toys taken by the pressing game. There is no doubt about it. When you can crete a 9.4 or 9.6 with the right 9.0 or 9.2, it is game over.

 

High grade silver doesn't magically materialize in the ComicLink broom closet every fortnight. The amount of silver that hasn't been in circulation since they were purchased off the rack is astounding. If I can find them, they can find them.

 

If that's your theory - go find it - that's great. But in the time that I have been collecting, pressing has gone from a resto technique I had never heard of, to a "non-resto" technique that has dry mount presses in the top 100 huttest Ebay items.

 

Again, I don't care. I have had many of my books pressed. It is what it is. I just think it is silly to tell someone to go collect mid-grade Silver or trades when a huge part of their love of the hobby is unmolested gems. It smacks of pro-presser stalking horse.

 

My original post included the option for them to go find their own off the rack collections if high grade is the big draw. Posts that bemoan the loss of all high grade books smacks of the opposite. Anti-pressers who conveniently overlook other options for finding the comics they want outside of slabs and big auctions. Tim gets a pass obviously because of geography, maybe Nick as well to a slightly lesser degree, but those of us in the US have a wealth of opportunities for finding books at the source.

 

Not my idea of a hobby. YMMV.

 

 

So is your problem that these guys can't easily find what they're looking for or that Andy doesn't really care that much?

 

I think it is to tell the guys that feel stung by the proliferation of pressing to collect mid grade books or go buy some Essentials.

[oakman29]

Adapt? Why should I have to adapt.