Okajima pedigree 25 25

[sfcityduck]

On 6/5/2022 at 11:28 PM, Tri-ColorBrian said:

The plot thickens...you are a true investigator, Tom...

 

FYI: I'm not Tom. 

[Tri-Color Brian]

On 6/5/2022 at 11:41 PM, sfcityduck said:

FYI: I'm not Tom. 

Sorry, the article linked one of your posts to a guy named Jeff Tom in S.F.  So...it was a natural mistake to get the first and last name mixed up...If that's even a real name...

Edited June 6, 2022 by Tri-ColorBrian

[sfcityduck]

On 6/5/2022 at 11:44 PM, Tri-ColorBrian said:

Sorry, the article linked one of your posts to a guy named Jeff Tom in S.F.  So...it was a natural mistake to get the first and last name mixed up...If that's even a real name...

It is, and I think he's a good guy. 50 Objects is a legit organization who do great work. They found a lot of info that I don't think any of us had ever seen. I give them full kudos. Sometimes great research may not be enough to get the story right - as I can attest to based on my own experience. I really hope that a swing and a miss doesn't destroy all credibility because if it does, then I've got none left. I'd prefer to see folks recognize that no one's perfect and we should weigh the good with full measure. I'd hate to think I'm the least credible and respected commentator on this site, but maybe I should be if the standard for speculation is 100% success.

Edited June 6, 2022 by sfcityduck

[Tri-Color Brian]

On 6/5/2022 at 11:59 PM, sfcityduck said:

It is, and I think he's a good guy. 50 Objects is a legit organization who do great work. They found a lot of info that I don't think any of us had ever seen. I give them full kudos. Sometimes great research may not be enough to get the story right - as I can attest to based on my own experience. I really hope that a swing and a miss doesn't destroy all credibility because if it does, then I've got none left. I'd prefer to see folks recognize that no one's perfect and we should weigh the good with full measure.

Sometimes great research requires several wrong turns before you connect all the dots in the right order.  I think you do a good job of it.  You are passionate about your subjects, and we all learn a lot from what you say, right or wrong. 

It might be premature, but I think we've all been seeing the wrong owner of this pedigree.

[sfcityduck]

On 6/6/2022 at 12:04 AM, Tri-ColorBrian said:

Sometimes great research requires several wrong turns before you connect all the dots in the right order.  I think you do a good job of it.  You are passionate about your subjects, and we all learn a lot from what you say, right or wrong. 

It might be premature, but I think we've all been seeing the wrong owner of this pedigree.

<cough cough>

On 1/9/2014 at 11:27 AM, sfcityduck said:

 

Japanese internment was a sad and embarrassing chapter in our country's history. Many smart people argued against It when it was first proposed as it was clearly wrong. And one of the worst aspects is that the internees had their homes and possessions seized beyond what they could carry on their backs to the camps or get their non-Japanese friends to store for them.

 

Gila opened in July 1942, but the internees would have arrived over time after that date. Internees started being released en masse in January 1945, although some were released earlier in special circumstances.

 

Worth noting that she had a brother who was four years younger than she was, so the books may not all have been hers or just for her.

On 1/12/2014 at 4:50 PM, sfcityduck said:

George Okajima, born 1925, was clearly a younger brother. Calling into question whether all those books were just hers.

BUT those comments look a lot smarter now that 50 Objects dug up info on her camp departure date that none of us knew until they published their article.  Again, kudos to them.

 

[Tri-Color Brian]

On 6/6/2022 at 12:12 AM, sfcityduck said:

<cough cough>

BUT those comments look a lot smarter now that 50 Objects dug up info on her camp departure date that none of us knew until they published their article.  Again, kudos to them.

 

Yeah...but you were on the right track way before the info came out...but don't get a big head about it. 

[Tri-Color Brian]

I only live about 25 miles from the Canal Camp site.  I think I'll go down there with a "Paper Detector" and see if I can find any more comics buried in the sand...

[comicnoir]

The writing is interesting. Women of my mother's generation valued penmanship. She wrote her name beautifully til the end. My signature is just a chicken scratch.

[Tri-Color Brian]

On 6/6/2022 at 12:44 AM, comicnoir said:

The writing is interesting. Women of my mother's generation valued penmanship. She wrote her name beautifully til the end. My signature is just a chicken scratch.

My 7th grade English teacher was a guy, and he had great handwriting...but it never rubbed off on me...

I think earlier generations valued their handwriting more that us schmucks...  I prefer printing...

[comicnoir]

He was an English teacher. He had to have good writing. You're right though about previous generations.

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

On 6/6/2022 at 1:01 AM, jpepx78 said:

George left camp on May 5 1944 for Keenesburg Colorado to a work camp and then enlisted in the army on August 16 1945

This blows my mind. After all this, George still enlisted. And to make a crazy story crazier, this was AFTER the US dropped 2 atomic bombs on Japan. I’m surprised the US was still inducting at that point. George was surely one of the last. August 15th is the day Emperor Hirohito announced his surrender. George’s service must have been uneventful 

[sfcityduck]

On 6/5/2022 at 11:21 PM, sfcityduck said:

This is the book that needs to be explained away if you think the post October 1943 books are not camp books:

For me, what's interesting about the Whiz 58 is that it is cover dated 9/44, but has what is likely a "store receipt date" of 4/22/44 (a full five month lead time - longer than the standard three months).  That handwritten date is after Bette left the camp and before George left the camp. It has no "Okajima" on it. It does say "Camp I". 

My conclusion: It is a camp book. Moreover, because it has the #./letter code (here a "4T"), that code could not have been added by Bette if it was a camp book as she'd already left the camp.  So one reasonable inference is that all books with #./alpha codes are camp books coded by someone other than Bette, not Chicago books coded by Bette. For me, the controversial argument in the 50 Objects article is this:

Quote

It isn’t known if Bette took the comics with her, left them behind or had them shipped later with her sewing machine. But it is believed that she bought comics in Chicago, sometimes writing her name, the date and a private code of letters and numbers on the covers.  ...  The meticulous preservation of the collection is characteristic of her orderly habits. “The way she catalogued it is part of her personality. She kept an immaculate house, even though she worked a job as a single mom and raised two boys” — who happened to be avid comic readers. “They always had the latest comic books. We didn’t, we couldn’t afford them.”

This argument does not convince me. It's not based on any direct information, just an inference based on how she kept her house clean. 

Which begs two questions: 

(1) Are there any #/letter coded books which post-date 10/44 (five months after George left the camp)?  If not, it strongly suggests that at least the later #/letter coded books were camp books collected by George. (I suppose that after George left, they could have been bought by the mom). I'd love to see a chronological chart of the books and their markings.

(2) What was the last #/letter and "signature" coded book? The Whiz above has no "signature" (or name) on it.

 

 

 

Edited June 6, 2022 by sfcityduck

[Robot Man]

On 6/5/2022 at 8:56 PM, skypinkblu said:

Two of my books are on there, too. I don't recall anyone asking, but it says anonymous, so perhaps it was a while ago and I don't remember.

I remember being asked and consented.  Apparently, I wasn’t the only one. 

[path4play]

On 6/6/2022 at 10:40 AM, sfcityduck said:

For me, what's interesting about the Whiz 58 is that it is cover dated 9/44, but has what is likely a "store receipt date" of 4/22/44 (a full five month lead time - longer than the standard three months).  That handwritten date is after Bette left the camp and before George left the camp. It has no "Okajima" on it. It does say "Camp I". 

My conclusion: It is a camp book. Moreover, because it has the #./letter code (here a "4T"), that code could not have been added by Bette if it was a camp book as she'd already left the camp.  So one reasonable inference is that all books with #./alpha codes are camp books coded by someone other than Bette, not Chicago books coded by Bette. For me, the controversial argument in the 50 Objects article is this:

This argument does not convince me. It's not based on any direct information, just an inference based on how she kept her house clean. 

Which begs two questions: 

(1) Are there any #/letter coded books which post-date 10/44 (five months after George left the camp)?  If not, it strongly suggests that at least the later #/letter coded books were camp books collected by George. (I suppose that after George left, they could have been bought by the mom). I'd love to see a chronological chart of the books and their markings.

(2) What was the last #/letter and "signature" coded book? The Whiz above has no "signature" (or name) on it.

 

 

 

To my knowledge, the last code was 9/13/44 (4x).

The first date stamp 10/10/44.

However, for some reason somehow I had written down 5/5/44 as the date George went into the military service.

9/13/1944			7	Police Comics #36 "4X"		4	X
10/3/1944			20	Fighting Yank #10	7
10/4/1944	10/21/1944			Green Hornet #21	7
10/13/1944	10/10/1944	Tuesday	10	Police Comics #37 (Date Stamp)
10/27/1944	10/21/1944	Saturday	14	Mystery Comics #4 (Date Stamp)	8
	10/24/1944			Batman #26 (Date Stamp)	8
10/27/1944	11/11/1944	Saturday	0	Shadow Comics #v4#9 [45] (Date Stamp)	8
12/15/1944	12/29/0144		49	Police Comics #39 (Date Stamp)
12/29/1944	1/5/1945		14	Superman #33 (Date Stamp)
1/16/1945	1/16/1945	Monday	18	SuperMagicianV3#11 (Date Stamp)	8
				Wow #34
2/23/1945	3/8/1945		38	Crime Does Not Pay #39 (Date Stamp)	6.5
3/16/1945	3/29/1945	Thursday	21	Green Lantern #15 (Date Stamp)	9

 

 

Edited June 6, 2022 by path4play

[miraclemet]

On 6/6/2022 at 10:40 AM, sfcityduck said:

 

(1) Are there any #/letter coded books which post-date 10/44 (five months after George left the camp)?  If not, it strongly suggests that at least the later #/letter coded books were camp books collected by George. (I suppose that after George left, they could have been bought by the mom). I'd love to see a chronological chart of the books and their markings.

(2) What was the last #/letter and "signature" coded book? The Whiz above has no "signature" (or name) on it.

 

 

 

Military Comics #34 had not date, but a code  "4xv"
Superman #31  also had no date, but had the "4xv" code. 
Both books were released in October of 1944. 

October is also when the books shift to start using the date stamp instead of the written date 
Date stamps of "OCT 10 1944" and 10/21/44 come up on books shortly thereafter. Date stamps continue into January of 1945

The latest book with the signature was... Sensation Comics #35 which also had a 4X, but no written date (aprox release date of 9/7/44)

[miraclemet]

Still trying to reconcile the facts, the stories and the comics... 

Some initial thoughts

Bette left camp on October 19 1943 for Chicago to join her sister Frances and brother-in-law.

At this point the collection is very small. At this point there are a dozen comics with the "Okajima" -script, But no codes. The earliest known code (from my list, correct me if you know of an earlier one) is a "1C" code from Action Comics #68, which is also dated on the cover with "11/16/43" (which lines up with the estimated newsstand release date). [note there is an earlier comic, Startling #24, that has a "1" and a "P" on it, but I'm doubtful that this is the same type of coding]. So after Bette gets to Chicago with a few comics from the camp (maybe?) she starts collecting (again?) in Chicago. Questions: IF she's living with her sister & brother-in-law why bother writing her name on them? Usually the point of writing ones name on a comic is to show ownership. Who did she have to prove ownership to? She wasn't a kid fighting with her little brother/sister over the comics, or trading them at school... And what changed for Better in October of 1944, a year later, to change her notation methods? To drop the signature, and the coding and the date? I assume a change in behavior connotes a change in something else. What changed?

I do not doubt that the books signed "Okajima" were signed by Bette. The penmanship/style is just to close to the exemplars not to be hers. 

George left camp on May 5 1944 for Keenesburg Colorado to a work camp and then enlisted in the army on August 16 1945
First lets look at May 1994 to see if there's any signs in the collection to note this change. There was a comic bought the day before George left camp (Superman #29, "5-4-44" with the "Okajima" (unsure of code) and the day after George left, another comic was bought, Shadow Comics V4n3 ("3M" and Okajima con cover along with 5-6-44) So no change in the collection despite George leaving camp. George's enlistment similarly doesnt seem to change the collection. On August 9 Mystery Comics #2 is purchased, noted with code "4o" (yes lowercase, though maybe it was a p? which would make more sequential sense), no "okajima" signature, but with the note "Camp 3". Again this is AFTER George left camp, but BEFORE he enlisted. So no clue what "Camp 3" is supposed to reference. A week after enlisting (and two weeks after the "Camp 3 noted Mystery Comics #2) the aforementioned Whiz Comics #58 is purchased, again no signature, but with the "4T" code (which sequentially makes sense and the "Camp I" note. 

The most interesting thing to me is that after George enlisted in mid august, We see the start of the date stamp use in October. Once the date stamps start, we no longer see scripts, codes or signatures. Maybe these books were either a) George's books bought while enlisted maybe at the PX? or b) maybe these books were sent to him from family while he was shipped out? Though the idea that they were Georges and they made it back to the family home to be added to the collection is a stretch, especially if he was deployed. I dont know if George was deployed, or just stayed stateside. 

[Tri-Color Brian]

On 6/7/2022 at 6:47 PM, miraclemet said:

I do not doubt that the books signed "Okajima" were signed by Bette. The penmanship/style is just to close to the exemplars not to be hers. 

 

George left camp on May 5 1944 for Keenesburg Colorado to a work camp and then enlisted in the army on August 16 1945
 

The most interesting thing to me is that after George enlisted in mid august, We see the start of the date stamp use in October. Once the date stamps start, we no longer see scripts, codes or signatures. Maybe these books were either a) George's books bought while enlisted maybe at the PX? or b) maybe these books were sent to him from family while he was shipped out? Though the idea that they were Georges and they made it back to the family home to be added to the collection is a stretch, especially if he was deployed. I dont know if George was deployed, or just stayed stateside. 

Everyone has done such great research with this story that I feel hesitant to add my two cents, but I will say this:  The handwriting on Bette's envelope does not match the Okajima name on the books, nor does the written #2 on the envelope and on the comic.  Look at it closely.  Pay attention to the "a"s and the "O" in Okajima.  Look at where the a's are connected to the previous letter.  Look at the number 2 on the envelope.  It has a loop at the bottom left, the 2 on the comic is a straight ending and then to the right.  As for the note found in one of the comics, yes, that does match.  But, why do we assume it was Bette's handwriting.  It could have been her MOTHER's handwriting, marking the books for George, and she slipped a note about fabric into one of the books and forgot it.  This seems much more plausible than Bette writing her name on the books in Chicago (not to mention writing Camp I on a book dated Sept 1944).  Her mother was in the camp in 1944...so...

I can't find the ref. to when George left the camp.  Was that in the story?  If not, where did it come from? 

Anyway, I see a mom writing the family name and date purchased on comics while in the camp, and bringing them home afterwards for her son.  The camp dates ended and the new date codes began probably due to comics being bought at a store in Sanger. 

Just a few thoughts...

This is a fascinating mystery. 

[skypinkblu]

I have a Superman 28 that has no name on the front, that CGC certified as being part of the collection.  I have a 31 as well, no signature, no marking. There is nothing in the graders notes about how it was decided they were part of the Pedigree.

What I don't quite get is why do people think the books belonged to her brother?  Women read comics...why assume they belonged to him?

[skypinkblu]

Also there are a lot of differences on those two signatures, but I thought pages ago that it was supposed to be a store clerk who signed the books..? Also what proof do you have that she wrote that return address? I've written lots of return addresses for members of my household.

[comicnoir]

On 6/8/2022 at 12:01 AM, skypinkblu said:

I have a Superman 28 that has no name on the front, that CGC certified as being part of the collection.  I have a 31 as well, no signature, no marking. There is nothing in the graders notes about how it was decided they were part of the Pedigree.

What I don't quite get is why do people think the books belonged to her brother?  Women read comics...why assume they belonged to him?

The theory is she was gone from the camp but the comics were still being signed. The brother was still in camp.