November Clink Auction

[Jaydogrules]

FYI: the reason the Superworld #1 in the auction is graded 7.5 is due to the PQ. CGC stated that it wouldn't give a higher grade than 7.5 (the Superworld looks closer to an 8.5 or a 9.0) directly because of the PQ. Personally, I thought the paper looked better than rated, but whadda I know??

 

MrMyst:

 

Say what?

 

 

http://www.bipcomics.com/showcase/CGCWhiteness/17_Tan-OffWhite/8.5_Tan-OffWhite.jpg

 

-J.

[Jaydogrules]

I have never seen a cream to light tan designation

 

on the flip side, the lt tan to ow is better than a light tan to cream (or vice versa if such a designation exists) , as the second quality designation is superior.... ie, ow is better than cream or lt tan, and therefore would be listed higher...

 

has nothing to do with just the first pq qualifier, but more an "avg" of the 2

 

the point is really moot, as both borock, haspel and I believe even west have confirmed that light tan is "inferior" to cream (thumbs u

 

"Light Tan to Off-white" means the edges of the pages are light tan and the center of the pages are off-white. You will never see an "Off-white to Light Tan" designation... unless of course, someone starts to burn the center of a comic.

Thanks west. To the best of your knowledge does cream to light tan even exist ?

 

 

 

The article I linked to the last page back has multiple examples of "CR-LT", but notes no such examples of "LT-CR", thus the author's hypothesis that LT is actually a superior PQ than Cream. Food for thought. No pun intended.

 

-J.

[mrmyst]

FYI: the reason the Superworld #1 in the auction is graded 7.5 is due to the PQ. CGC stated that it wouldn't give a higher grade than 7.5 (the Superworld looks closer to an 8.5 or a 9.0) directly because of the PQ. Personally, I thought the paper looked better than rated, but whadda I know??

 

Say what?

 

 

http://www.bipcomics.com/showcase/CGCWhiteness/17_Tan-OffWhite/8.5_Tan-OffWhite.jpg

 

-J.

 

You'll have to ask them.

[ciorac]

I have never seen a cream to light tan designation

 

on the flip side, the lt tan to ow is better than a light tan to cream (or vice versa if such a designation exists) , as the second quality designation is superior.... ie, ow is better than cream or lt tan, and therefore would be listed higher...

 

has nothing to do with just the first pq qualifier, but more an "avg" of the 2

 

the point is really moot, as both borock, haspel and I believe even west have confirmed that light tan is "inferior" to cream (thumbs u

 

"Light Tan to Off-white" means the edges of the pages are light tan and the center of the pages are off-white. You will never see an "Off-white to Light Tan" designation... unless of course, someone starts to burn the center of a comic.

Thanks west. To the best of your knowledge does cream to light tan even exist ?

 

 

 

The article I linked to the last page back has multiple examples of "CR-LT", but notes no such examples of "LT-CR", thus the author's hypothesis that LT is actually a superior PQ than Cream. Food for thought. No pun intended.

 

-J.

 

I'd say he is wrong. If you've had a LT book in your hands you know how dry the paper is, and conversely how supple cream paper is

[mrmyst]

Actually the Superworld #1 has Tan to Off-White, not LT to Off-White. I guess CGC's standards have changed with relation to PQ/overall grade since those others were graded?

[adamstrange]

That's transfer stain due to oils from the interior paper and not yellowing due to ageing of the cover.

 

I'm not sure if this is the same thing, but a lot of St John's books have significant staining/tanning in the middle of the covers -- worse than on the edges.

 

[Jaydogrules]

MrMyst:

 

The linked comic is Tan-OW as well. Check it out again.

 

http://www.bipcomics.com/showcase/CGCWhiteness/17_Tan-OffWhite/8.5_Tan-OffWhite.jpg

 

Yes their standards probably have changed and may change again with respect to PQ and other things, but we'll never know and they ain't sayin . I think that Superworld 1 was robbed on the grade too, if those weren't so danged rare I would CPR that mo' fo'.

 

 

Ciorac:

 

I'm not sure I would know the difference between anything other than white and slightly brittle/brittle, as I have very oily fingers and never touch a book without gloves on . The subtle and uber subtle micro distinctions in PQ that CGC apparently assigns are given more credibility than they should have IMHO.

 

-J.

[nearmint]

I'm not sure I would know the difference between anything other than white and slightly brittle/brittle, as I have very oily fingers and never touch a book without gloves on . The subtle and uber subtle micro distinctions in PQ that CGC apparently assigns are given more credibility than they should have IMHO.

 

-J.

 

Really? I see distinctions between the different levels of page quality. White pages look different than OW which looks different from C-OW. Are judgement calls sometimes made when a book is treading the line between white and OW-W, or OW and C-OW? Sure, but some books legitimately tread that line.

[Jaydogrules]

I'm not sure I would know the difference between anything other than white and slightly brittle/brittle, as I have very oily fingers and never touch a book without gloves on . The subtle and uber subtle micro distinctions in PQ that CGC apparently assigns are given more credibility than they should have IMHO.

 

-J.

 

Really? I see distinctions between the different levels of page quality. White pages look different than OW which looks different from C-OW. Are judgement calls sometimes made when a book is treading the line between white and OW-W, or OW and C-OW? Sure, but some books legitimately tread that line.

 

My understanding is that PQ relates to how the pages feel ("suppleness") rather than actual color. But then I see a book with "Pink Pages" and I'm like "What do 'pink pages' feel like?". I do know that I have looked at the edges of pages of some books in a slab that looked out right yellow but had OW/W designation on the holder, and questioned that, and I have seen some that looked newspaper white with a label that said they were CR/OW pages. Now that I think about it.....why isn't "yellow" a color CGC uses? Some books have newspaper quality paper and turn yellow like old newspapers do....

 

-J.

[G.A.tor]

pq=page quality, not page "color"... colors are used because they have a visual accounting/relationship with how we think...

 

[adamstrange]

I'm not sure I would know the difference between anything other than white and slightly brittle/brittle, as I have very oily fingers and never touch a book without gloves on . The subtle and uber subtle micro distinctions in PQ that CGC apparently assigns are given more credibility than they should have IMHO.

 

-J.

 

Really? I see distinctions between the different levels of page quality. White pages look different than OW which looks different from C-OW. Are judgement calls sometimes made when a book is treading the line between white and OW-W, or OW and C-OW? Sure, but some books legitimately tread that line.

 

My understanding is that PQ relates to how the pages feel ("suppleness") rather than actual color. But then I see a book with "Pink Pages" and I'm like "What do 'pink pages' feel like?". I do know that I have looked at the edges of pages of some books in a slab that looked out right yellow but had OW/W designation on the holder, and questioned that, and I have seen some that looked newspaper white with a label that said they were CR/OW pages. Now that I think about it.....why isn't "yellow" a color CGC uses? Some books have newspaper quality paper and turn yellow like old newspapers do....

 

-J.

 

Some Fox comics were printed on colored paper rather than on white paper. The two colors that were used were pink and blue-gray. CGC will note "pink" in the pq listing when pink was used -- not sure how they handle the blue.

 

There are two primary dimensions to page quality: color and deterioration/ageing. Comics with closer to white/as-printed pages will result in a more pleasant reading experience that presents the printed colors as they were intended. Comics that have not aged since being plucked off the newsstand will smell fresher and be more supple.

 

To a very high degree, color is correlated with ageing. A white pager will seldom be brittle (it's possible but I've not run across it) and the whiter the pages the fresher and more supple the book. Occasionally, the book with darker pages will be more supple than the one with whiter pages. These exceptions happen infrequently enough that pq has been typically defined according to color.

 

Judging page quality to the degree that cgc does is not hard with a bit of practice on a decent selection of comics that have a range of page quality. It's much easier, in my experience, than learning the ins and outs of the structural grade.

[Sqeggs]

That's transfer stain due to oils from the interior paper and not yellowing due to ageing of the cover.

 

I'm not sure if this is the same thing, but a lot of St John's books have significant staining/tanning in the middle of the covers -- worse than on the edges.

 

 

I wonder why this problem is so prevalent with the St John books? I assume it has something to do with an inferior production process because the books are also particularly prone to miswraps and miscuts.

[VintageComics]

 

I wonder why this problem is so prevalent with the St John books? I assume it has something to do with an inferior production process because the books are also particularly prone to miswraps and miscuts.

 

That's the conclusion I came to. Very cheaply produced.

 

From what I understand, cheaper inks cause oils within the inks break away from the inks over time under certain storage conditions and seep into the covers.

 

SA Marvels are commonly seen with this phenomenon although to my experience, not to the same degree as Fox books.

 

 

[Timely]

When I came on board CGC in 2004 some of the page quality issues had been resolved, but some had not. Because I saw some discrepancies, I talked to Borock about my concerns and asked him for definitive answers regarding how high a book can be graded with less than off-white to white pages. Once those parameters were in place and all the page quality designations were stream-lined, those were the standards that were used from that time forward. Borock left CGC in 2008 and myself in 2011, but in 2011, those standards were still in place.

[jimbo_707]

MrMyst:

 

The linked comic is Tan-OW as well. Check it out again.

 

http://www.bipcomics.com/showcase/CGCWhiteness/17_Tan-OffWhite/8.5_Tan-OffWhite.jpg

 

Yes their standards probably have changed and may change again with respect to PQ and other things, but we'll never know and they ain't sayin . I think that Superworld 1 was robbed on the grade too, if those weren't so danged rare I would CPR that mo' fo'.

 

 

Ciorac:

 

I'm not sure I would know the difference between anything other than white and slightly brittle/brittle, as I have very oily fingers and never touch a book without gloves on . The subtle and uber subtle micro distinctions in PQ that CGC apparently assigns are given more credibility than they should have IMHO.

 

-J.

Your example is a double-cover book, and one of the covers was graded 9.6 according to the label, so it appears that they did downgrade the book due to the page quality, from 9.6 to 8.5. (The book was graded 10/05/2007.)

[Jaydogrules]

MrMyst:

 

The linked comic is Tan-OW as well. Check it out again.

 

http://www.bipcomics.com/showcase/CGCWhiteness/17_Tan-OffWhite/8.5_Tan-OffWhite.jpg

 

Yes their standards probably have changed and may change again with respect to PQ and other things, but we'll never know and they ain't sayin . I think that Superworld 1 was robbed on the grade too, if those weren't so danged rare I would CPR that mo' fo'.

 

 

Ciorac:

 

I'm not sure I would know the difference between anything other than white and slightly brittle/brittle, as I have very oily fingers and never touch a book without gloves on . The subtle and uber subtle micro distinctions in PQ that CGC apparently assigns are given more credibility than they should have IMHO.

 

-J.

Your example is a double-cover book, and one of the covers was graded 9.6 according to the label, so it appears that they did downgrade the book due to the page quality, from 9.6 to 8.5. (The book was graded 10/05/2007.)

 

 

I don't doubt that, however the example I posted was to illustrate that CGC has indeed graded a book with "Tan" pages higher than the 7.5 that MrMyst's book with also "Tan" pages received that CGC claimed they dinged him for.

 

That book was graded in 2007, you're right, so maybe whomever owns it now should CPR it and see what kind of PQ it comes back with this time since PQ designations have indeed been known to shift with the wind upon second submissions.

 

-J.

 

 

[adamstrange]

That's transfer stain due to oils from the interior paper and not yellowing due to ageing of the cover.

 

I'm not sure if this is the same thing, but a lot of St John's books have significant staining/tanning in the middle of the covers -- worse than on the edges.

 

 

I wonder why this problem is so prevalent with the St John books? I assume it has something to do with an inferior production process because the books are also particularly prone to miswraps and miscuts.

All comic books are cheaply produced and miswraps and miscuts are fairly frequent occurrences across the publishers. I'm not sure which ones are worse and even that may vary from year to year.

 

With respect to St John transfer stains that, I think, is due mostly to the cover stock that has a matte finish (minimal sizing that would inhibit absorption) and is extra absorbent. It is partly due to the interior paper that seems to seep a bit more oil than would be typical. This was not unique to St John as Atlas books were printed in a similar fashion during part of 1951 and 1952.

[ciorac]

That's transfer stain due to oils from the interior paper and not yellowing due to ageing of the cover.

 

I'm not sure if this is the same thing, but a lot of St John's books have significant staining/tanning in the middle of the covers -- worse than on the edges.

 

 

I wonder why this problem is so prevalent with the St John books? I assume it has something to do with an inferior production process because the books are also particularly prone to miswraps and miscuts.

All comic books are cheaply produced and miswraps and miscuts are fairly frequent occurrences across the publishers. I'm not sure which ones are worse and even that may vary from year to year.

 

With respect to St John transfer stains that, I think, is due mostly to the cover stock that has a matte finish (minimal sizing that would inhibit absorption) and is extra absorbent. It is partly due to the interior paper that seems to seep a bit more oil than would be typical. This was not unique to St John as Atlas books were printed in a similar fashion during part of 1951 and 1952.

 

Not to mention Avon. Particularly Out of this World #1

[adamstrange]

That's transfer stain due to oils from the interior paper and not yellowing due to ageing of the cover.

 

I'm not sure if this is the same thing, but a lot of St John's books have significant staining/tanning in the middle of the covers -- worse than on the edges.

 

 

I wonder why this problem is so prevalent with the St John books? I assume it has something to do with an inferior production process because the books are also particularly prone to miswraps and miscuts.

All comic books are cheaply produced and miswraps and miscuts are fairly frequent occurrences across the publishers. I'm not sure which ones are worse and even that may vary from year to year.

 

With respect to St John transfer stains that, I think, is due mostly to the cover stock that has a matte finish (minimal sizing that would inhibit absorption) and is extra absorbent. It is partly due to the interior paper that seems to seep a bit more oil than would be typical. This was not unique to St John as Atlas books were printed in a similar fashion during part of 1951 and 1952.

 

Not to mention Avon. Particularly Out of this World #1

Agreed. Similar paper cover and similar transfer stain on that one.

[comicnoir]

That's transfer stain due to oils from the interior paper and not yellowing due to ageing of the cover.

 

I'm not sure if this is the same thing, but a lot of St John's books have significant staining/tanning in the middle of the covers -- worse than on the edges.

 

 

I wonder why this problem is so prevalent with the St John books? I assume it has something to do with an inferior production process because the books are also particularly prone to miswraps and miscuts.

All comic books are cheaply produced and miswraps and miscuts are fairly frequent occurrences across the publishers. I'm not sure which ones are worse and even that may vary from year to year.

 

With respect to St John transfer stains that, I think, is due mostly to the cover stock that has a matte finish (minimal sizing that would inhibit absorption) and is extra absorbent. It is partly due to the interior paper that seems to seep a bit more oil than would be typical. This was not unique to St John as Atlas books were printed in a similar fashion during part of 1951 and 1952.

 

I always thought transfer stains came from the inside cover, from the b&w inks on the interior (usually) advertisement.