Is Foom 2 a Prototype for Wolverine?

[rjpb]

When did comic shipments go from twice a week to once a week? i was out of the game for a while, and I remember it was Tue and Thurs (at least in central Ohio) back in the early 70s, and I have a vague memory of it switching in the mid-eighties shortly after I started buying again on a regular basis.

[divad]

 

I've shown on another thread that the US Copyright office data is only as good as the data submitted to them. I've found several mistakes with their published date data.

 

And, as I pointed out to you in that thread, you were wrong. This is a contemporaneous statement made and filed under the penalty of perjury, and would hold up in any court of law in the U.S.

 

Divad:

 

I believe you agreed it could have been a clerical error on the part of someone at DC when they filed with the US Copyright office:

 

 

I'll use Batman Adventures 30 itself to illustrate the point about the Copyright registration database being unreliable. According to Diamond (from http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/1995/1995-01Diamond.html), Batman Adventures 30 was released in January 1995:

 

116 Batman Adventures 30 $1.50 DC 32.2

 

And, according to the Copyright registration database, we have:

 

Type of Work: Serial

Title: The Batman Adventures.

Serial Publication Year: 1995

Description: print material.

Frequency: Monthly.

Publication History: [No.] 1, Oct. 1992-

Copyright Claimant: DC Comics, Inc.

Issues Registered: no. 29, Feb95. Created 1994; Pub. 1995-01-03; Reg. 1995-01-25; TX0003977103

no. 30, Mar95. Created 1995; Pub. 1995-02-07; Reg. 1995-02-27; TX0003999859

no. 31, Apr95. Created 1995; Pub. 1995-03-07; Reg. 1995-03-27; TX0003843164

no. 32, Jun95. Created 1995; Pub. 1995-04-04; Reg. 1995-04-14; TX0004016765

no. 33, Jul95. Created 1995; Pub. 1995-05-02; Reg. 1995-05-19; TX0004044581

no. 34, Aug95. Created 1995; Pub. 1995-06-06; Reg. 1995-06-20; TX0004066705

no. 35, Sep95. Created 1995; Pub. 1995-07-04; Reg. 1995-07-25; TX0004076866

no. 36, Oct95. Created 1995; Pub. 1995-08-01; Reg. 1995-09-01; TX0004129262

Basis of Claim: New matter: additions.

 

Names: DC Comics, Inc.

 

So, the book was distributed in January 1995 according to Diamond, but was published in February 1995 according to the Copyright registration database. I've seen other books off by as much as 3 months in the Copyright registration database when compared to the Diamond charts.

 

Definitely don't want to repeat this back and forth however. So, you can have the last word.

 

By the way, I'm not arguing ASM 252 did not come first. Just that the US Copyright registration database does have mistakes. And not for ASM 252 and MTU 141.

 

It's not an argument, it's fact. The database does not make mistakes, people do. Once again, you are citing secondary information.

[rjrjr]

My recollection of this is the ads that Marvel ran for a month ran through *ALL* the titles they had that month.

 

No, like I said, your recollection is wrong. I looked through lots of those books and have only found 2 that had the Hulk 181 ad, and these were both early-month issues.

 

I think that is the case because the Wolverine in-house ad is on the letter page. When I made that statement, I failed to remember the letter pages were different for every book and laid out per title. I posted another response to this thread that hopefully explains things better.

 

My point is, that I'm not just talking about of my butt when I state things like this. Okay?

 

joe_collector, I'm not trying to ruffle your feathers. I'm just asking if the full page ads in Marvel comics for a particular month are the same across all the comics? In other words, if page 6 has an ad for Double Bubble in ASM, does the Daredevil title for that month also have a Double Bubble ad on page 6.

 

 

No reason to be frustrated. You answered my question, I'm too thick sometimes to see it, so

[joe_collector]

By the way, I'm not arguing ASM 252 did not come first. Just that the US Copyright registration database does have mistakes.

 

No, you seem to argue just to argue.

 

This conversation has absolutely nothing to do with the US copyright registration database, and that part is just one more piece of corroborating evidence.

 

1) Collectors state en masse that ASM 252 was first.

2) Dealers state en masse that ASM 252 was first.

3) Industry publications of the time tout ASM 252 as first appearance of black costume.

4) The US copyright registration database corroborates this scenario, with the right month for both issues I might add (not like your example).

 

It's just one more piece of the puzzle in confirming that ASM 252 was first, and if you want to debate ethereal US copyright registration database errors, then you might want to go to a much different forum. We talk comics here.

[joe_collector]

It's not an argument, it's fact. The database does not make mistakes, people do. Once again, you are citing secondary information.

 

Not only that, but he's citing a random event where the entry is screwed up with the wrong month, something that couldn't happen without a time machine, an obvious clerical error.

 

In this case, both ASM 252 and MTU 141 do not have the same obvious clerical error, so why would you not assume the data is correct?

[Comicopolis]

ASM #252 was published 2 weeks prior to MTU #141. From the US Copyright Office records:

 

Thanks for posting that, and I really have no idea where CGC got their "same month" misinformation, as it's been a long-standing comic fact that ASM 252 was on the shelves first. Just ask a dealer who had a store back then, ASM 252 was an instant hit, was speculated on, and even sold for above-cover at some stores.

 

You're welcome, Vince. Nice to see you back, and setting the record straight when appropriate. Many of the youngsters around here just don't get it when you tell them you know something, because you were actually THERE.

 

First hand experience is frowned upon by some on these boards - knowledge can only be acquired by reading about something on the internet apparently.

[rjrjr]

By the way, I'm not arguing ASM 252 did not come first. Just that the US Copyright registration database does have mistakes.

 

No, you seem to argue just to argue.

 

This conversation has absolutely nothing to do with the US copyright registration database, and that part is just one more piece of corroborating evidence.

 

1) Collectors state en masse that ASM 252 was first.

2) Dealers state en masse that ASM 252 was first.

3) Industry publications of the time tout ASM 252 as first appearance of black costume.

4) The US copyright registration database corroborates this scenario, with the right month for both issues I might add (not like your example).

 

It's just one more piece of the puzzle in confirming that ASM 252 was first, and if you want to debate ethereal US copyright registration database errors, then you might want to go to a much different forum. We talk comics here.

 

Does it make you feel better when you vent like this cutting out the part where I said you, divad, and whoever else said ASM 252 came out first was right and not just once in this thread, but several times? You really come off as an sometimes.

[porcupine48]

Hello everybody

[joe_collector]

You really come off as an sometimes.

 

And you probably argue with yourself when no one else is around.

[Lonzilla]

From my 1984 hunting memory:

ASM 252 came out first, MTU 141 a week later, PPTSS 90 bringing up the rear.

 

**If anyone has the old Marvel Age comics, it probably has the release dates listed. Pretty sure ASM 252 came out the same day as Secret Wars #1 from what I remember

 

[MrWeen]

From my 1984 hunting memory:

ASM 252 came out first, MTU 141 a week later, PPTSS 90 bringing up the rear.

 

**If anyone has the old Marvel Age comics, it probably has the release dates listed. Pretty sure ASM 252 came out the same day as Secret Wars #1 from what I remember

 

i have noticed a disturbing trend when it comes to most forums, eventually most turn into spider-man debates. you guys all seem to cream over 252 bases on that overused black costume so here's one: marvel age 20 predates secret wars 8 as a black costume on cover. discuss:

[joe_collector]

marvel age 20 predates secret wars 8 as a black costume on cover. discuss:

 

No discussion. Marvel Age is not a comic book but an in-house preview magazine.

 

This has been covered a million times, promoted by dealers, Wizard, OS, etc. and no collectors ever bite on these "first appearances".

[*Bronze age fan*]

You really come off as an sometimes.

 

And you probably argue with yourself when no one else is around.

 

+1.

[*Bronze age fan*]

Someone listed a Foom 2 raw on eBay. And the seller is claiming its in 9.8 shape. Already up to 150. I wonder were that auction will end in price.

[MrWeen]

marvel age 20 predates secret wars 8 as a black costume on cover. discuss:

 

No discussion. Marvel Age is not a comic book but an in-house preview magazine.

 

This has been covered a million times, promoted by dealers, Wizard, OS, etc. and no collectors ever bite on these "first appearances".

 

wizard! yes its a preview but in comic format, it is also a black costume cover that predates sw 8, i never said it was a first appearance of the costume, there we agree its 252

[*Bronze age fan*]

marvel age 20 predates secret wars 8 as a black costume on cover. discuss:

 

No discussion. Marvel Age is not a comic book but an in-house preview magazine.

 

This has been covered a million times, promoted by dealers, Wizard, OS, etc. and no collectors ever bite on these "first appearances".

 

wizard! yes its a preview but in comic format, it is also a black costume cover that predates sw 8, i never said it was a first appearance of the costume, there we agree its 252

 

 

[MrWeen]

marvel age 20 predates secret wars 8 as a black costume on cover. discuss:

 

No discussion. Marvel Age is not a comic book but an in-house preview magazine.

 

This has been covered a million times, promoted by dealers, Wizard, OS, etc. and no collectors ever bite on these "first appearances".

 

wizard! yes its a preview but in comic format, it is also a black costume cover that predates sw 8, i never said it was a first appearance of the costume, there we agree its 252

 

 

 

I like your opinion on Foom 2 as a Wolverine Prototype!

[Lonzilla]

From my 1984 hunting memory:

ASM 252 came out first, MTU 141 a week later, PPTSS 90 bringing up the rear.

 

**If anyone has the old Marvel Age comics, it probably has the release dates listed. Pretty sure ASM 252 came out the same day as Secret Wars #1 from what I remember

 

i have noticed a disturbing trend when it comes to most forums, eventually most turn into spider-man debates. you guys all seem to cream over 252 bases on that overused black costume so here's one: marvel age 20 predates secret wars 8 as a black costume on cover. discuss:

FOOM #2 is not the 1st appearance of Wolverine, or even a prototype of the character, as the costume doesn't even resemble Wolverine's at all in my opinion.

Marvel Age #12, (not #20), is the 1st published appearance of Spider-man's black costume that we know of so far

[MrWeen]

From my 1984 hunting memory:

ASM 252 came out first, MTU 141 a week later, PPTSS 90 bringing up the rear.

 

**If anyone has the old Marvel Age comics, it probably has the release dates listed. Pretty sure ASM 252 came out the same day as Secret Wars #1 from what I remember

 

i have noticed a disturbing trend when it comes to most forums, eventually most turn into spider-man debates. you guys all seem to cream over 252 bases on that overused black costume so here's one: marvel age 20 predates secret wars 8 as a black costume on cover. discuss:

FOOM #2 is not the 1st appearance of Wolverine, or even a prototype of the character, as the costume doesn't even resemble Wolverine's at all in my opinion.

Marvel Age #12, (not #20), is the 1st published appearance of Spider-man's black costume that we know of so far

 

It's all good zilla, I never said Marvel Age 20 was the first appearance of the black costume just that it predates Secret Wars 8! I don't recollect all the images of the black costume from Marvel Age 12 but I vaguely remember there was some red in the design which differed from the black costume Marvel went with. A prototype maybe? Either way it does not matter, as far as I can tell the black costume/Symbiote appeared here before all the comics mentioned above:

 

 

 

 

 

[Lonzilla]

From my 1984 hunting memory:

ASM 252 came out first, MTU 141 a week later, PPTSS 90 bringing up the rear.

 

**If anyone has the old Marvel Age comics, it probably has the release dates listed. Pretty sure ASM 252 came out the same day as Secret Wars #1 from what I remember

 

i have noticed a disturbing trend when it comes to most forums, eventually most turn into spider-man debates. you guys all seem to cream over 252 bases on that overused black costume so here's one: marvel age 20 predates secret wars 8 as a black costume on cover. discuss:

FOOM #2 is not the 1st appearance of Wolverine, or even a prototype of the character, as the costume doesn't even resemble Wolverine's at all in my opinion.

Marvel Age #12, (not #20), is the 1st published appearance of Spider-man's black costume that we know of so far

 

It's all good zilla, I never said Marvel Age 20 was the first appearance of the black costume just that it predates Secret Wars 8! I don't recollect all the images of the black costume from Marvel Age 12 but I vaguely remember there was some red in the design which differed from the black costume Marvel went with. A prototype maybe? Either way it does not matter, as far as I can tell the black costume/Symbiote appeared here before all the comics mentioned above:

 

 

 

 

 

I was wondering if there was an issue of Amazing Heroes that had the black costume in there pre-Marvel Age. I have the issues of AH with The Watchmen preview as well as the Miller dark Knight Returns issue. So.... does anything have a pre- New Mutants 98 picture of Deadpool in it??