Vault Grading?????????....huh?

[Tony S]

It's possible they took down their site for the same reason the CBGC site quit taking submissions.

 

http://comicgrading.com/cgi-bin/cbgc.pl

 

DG

 

Back when PGX was calling themselves CCG, they received the same legal notice (for trademark infringement) and threat of legal action. CCG, CBGC - all rather clearly could cause brand confusion with the leader and best known company of CGC.

 

Normally I'll give the "little guy" the benefit of the doubt, but in both these situations they should have picked a name that doesn't so obviously try to tread on the popularity of the market leader.

 

CBGC should just change their name. I very much doubt Vault grading got a cease and desist notice from CGC for trademark infringement. I think Vault Grading is a rather catchy name. Vault's problems all relate to a lousy business model. They were much more expensive then the established competition, they offered to grade a much narrower range of products, they provided much less information about their company than the competition and even the submission process seemed sketchy.

 

 

[MetalPSI]

Not to mention online grading. How the hell can you take a business seriously if they don't even need the issue in hand to assign a grade...

[slym2none]

I'd bet our "Please Grade My..." section is better at grading than Vault as a company.

 

 

 

 

-slym

[dgarthwaite-migration]

It's possible they took down their site for the same reason the CBGC site quit taking submissions.

 

http://comicgrading.com/cgi-bin/cbgc.pl

 

DG

 

How does that work? You can't shut out competition just because you had the idea first. If that were the case, then Overstreet could have said "Hey, we put grades in our books so the idea that you want to professionally grade is competition we don't like" You can't patent an idea. Other companies have tried to stop competition like this and failed.

 

the site is probably lying

 

I actually tracked down this place. It took me to a Kroger shopping center the first time and I assumed I'd entered the address wrong into my GPS. I was going to see if I could submit some worthless comics without paying shipping charges. I also wanted to see if it was run by someone I know in Atlanta.

 

On a second try, it took me to the same place and I noticed the UPS store in the same shopping center. Duh! No storefront. The pictured building could be in the area. The area does have office parks with buildings like that.

 

DG

[dgarthwaite-migration]

Not to mention online grading. How the hell can you take a business seriously if they don't even need the issue in hand to assign a grade...

 

Online grading would be awesome for sellers. I can photoshop a scan and get rid of ANY spine creases!

I also like the idea of them grading a scan 9.4 and then plopping a 0.5 book into the case.

 

DG

[dgarthwaite-migration]

Not to mention online grading. How the hell can you take a business seriously if they don't even need the issue in hand to assign a grade...

 

When I visited their site it said they'd pre-screen online. That makes more sense. I think it's actually a good idea to charge someone $X.XX to tell them that their fine comic scan isn't going to come back as a 9.4. No shipping charge, very little time spent, instant payment.

 

DG

[stanley1883]

On a strictley aesthetic level, it looked pretty cool. Other than I dont get it, especially the remote grading and re-grading aspect. It would take a Herculean effort to take down CGC, they're still top notch and are THE standard.

 

I would like to see CGC get some competition though because they arent perfect.

[joecgcmaniac]

It's possible they took down their site for the same reason the CBGC site quit taking submissions.

 

http://comicgrading.com/cgi-bin/cbgc.pl

 

DG

 

How does that work? You can't shut out competition just because you had the idea first. If that were the case, then Overstreet could have said "Hey, we put grades in our books so the idea that you want to professionally grade is competition we don't like" You can't patent an idea. Other companies have tried to stop competition like this and failed.

 

the site is probably lying

 

There is probably more to this than we know. I would love for it to have been filed and pull the records and see the "why". If they hired their entire staff, reverse engineered their process and design, then yes there would be an issue. If they just want to grade comics; no issue. Coke can't tell Pepsi you can't make soda because we do.

 

This case is most likely due to the "closeness of the names". It would be like Pepsi coming out with a new cola, and calling it Koke. The CBGC name was just way too close to the CGC name to legally work.

[Jaylam]

The reason for the success of CGC is that the (majority) of the hobby as come to accept and agree with their assessment of grades and trusts their reputation and consistency for doing so. We even apply an added value to books that are CGC graded that verifies the hobby's overall belief and confidence in this. In finding this comfort zone with CGC, we as collectors and sellers have a vested interest in maintaining the trust and success that has been built up with CGC, and CGC has a vested interest in us to keep having that trust to sustain their status in the hobby, so what we have here is not so much a monopoly, but a symbiosis. What did we have before; contention and dissension based on the subjectivity between buyers and sellers? At least we mostly agree that 3rd party grading reduces the subjectivity of grading which as always been a sticking point. This may be over simplistic, but if I'm selling a 9.4 CGC graded, you're buying a 9.4 CGC graded, so we've taken the buyer's and seller's subjectivity out of the equation and we are all much more comfortable with that and like I said before, we assign added value because we both trust CGC's opinion. Maybe I could have said it better, but just my thoughts.

[GAMBIT]

I'd bet our "Please Grade My..." section is better at grading than Vault as a company.

 

 

 

 

-slym

 

I'm certain it is

[rjpb]

The reason for the success of CGC is that the (majority) of the hobby as come to accept and agree with their assessment of grades and trusts their reputation and consistency for doing so. We even apply an added value to books that are CGC graded that verifies the hobby's overall belief and confidence in this. In finding this comfort zone with CGC, we as collectors and sellers have a vested interest in maintaining the trust and success that has been built up with CGC, and CGC has a vested interest in us to keep having that trust to sustain their status in the hobby, so what we have here is not so much a monopoly, but a symbiosis. What did we have before; contention and dissension based on the subjectivity between buyers and sellers? At least we mostly agree that 3rd party grading reduces the subjectivity of grading which as always been a sticking point. This may be over simplistic, but if I'm selling a 9.4 CGC graded, you're buying a 9.4 CGC graded, so we've taken the buyer's and seller's subjectivity out of the equation and we are all much more comfortable with that and like I said before, we assign added value because we both trust CGC's opinion. Maybe I could have said it better, but just my thoughts.

 

I could quibble with the consistency part of your argument, but generally I agree with your points. The one component I would add is that CGCs opinion of a book's grade carries even more weight for many, as they don't trust themselves to grade accurately, let alone spot restoration. There is also the sense that someone has spent the time to carefully grade a book, and is less likely to miss something.

[Sqeggs]

The reason for the success of CGC is that the (majority) of the hobby as come to accept and agree with their assessment of grades and trusts their reputation and consistency for doing so. We even apply an added value to books that are CGC graded that verifies the hobby's overall belief and confidence in this. In finding this comfort zone with CGC, we as collectors and sellers have a vested interest in maintaining the trust and success that has been built up with CGC, and CGC has a vested interest in us to keep having that trust to sustain their status in the hobby, so what we have here is not so much a monopoly, but a symbiosis. What did we have before; contention and dissension based on the subjectivity between buyers and sellers? At least we mostly agree that 3rd party grading reduces the subjectivity of grading which as always been a sticking point. This may be over simplistic, but if I'm selling a 9.4 CGC graded, you're buying a 9.4 CGC graded, so we've taken the buyer's and seller's subjectivity out of the equation and we are all much more comfortable with that and like I said before, we assign added value because we both trust CGC's opinion. Maybe I could have said it better, but just my thoughts.

 

I could quibble with the consistency part of your argument, but generally I agree with your points. The one component I would add is that CGCs opinion of a book's grade carries even more weight for many, as they don't trust themselves to grade accurately, let alone spot restoration. There is also the sense that someone has spent the time to carefully grade a book, and is less likely to miss something.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but at least for GA collectors, I think the resto check was crucial in CGC's winning collectors over. It had become known that some dealers were monkeying with books and buyers wanted some protection against that.

[rjrjr]

I'd bet our "Please Grade My..." section is better at grading than Vault as a company.

 

 

 

 

-slym

 

I'm certain it is

 

But sometimes, it is also better at grading than CGC too.

[GAMBIT]

I'd bet our "Please Grade My..." section is better at grading than Vault as a company.

 

 

 

 

-slym

 

I'm certain it is

 

But sometimes, it is also better at grading than CGC too.

 

That is correct as well... Only difference is, cgc actually handles the books as this "other co" can give you grades via pictures , a la "please grade my ..." Forum section

[rjpb]

The reason for the success of CGC is that the (majority) of the hobby as come to accept and agree with their assessment of grades and trusts their reputation and consistency for doing so. We even apply an added value to books that are CGC graded that verifies the hobby's overall belief and confidence in this. In finding this comfort zone with CGC, we as collectors and sellers have a vested interest in maintaining the trust and success that has been built up with CGC, and CGC has a vested interest in us to keep having that trust to sustain their status in the hobby, so what we have here is not so much a monopoly, but a symbiosis. What did we have before; contention and dissension based on the subjectivity between buyers and sellers? At least we mostly agree that 3rd party grading reduces the subjectivity of grading which as always been a sticking point. This may be over simplistic, but if I'm selling a 9.4 CGC graded, you're buying a 9.4 CGC graded, so we've taken the buyer's and seller's subjectivity out of the equation and we are all much more comfortable with that and like I said before, we assign added value because we both trust CGC's opinion. Maybe I could have said it better, but just my thoughts.

 

I could quibble with the consistency part of your argument, but generally I agree with your points. The one component I would add is that CGCs opinion of a book's grade carries even more weight for many, as they don't trust themselves to grade accurately, let alone spot restoration. There is also the sense that someone has spent the time to carefully grade a book, and is less likely to miss something.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but at least for GA collectors, I think the resto check was crucial in CGC's winning collectors over. It had become known that some dealers were monkeying with books and buyers wanted some protection against that.

 

I think you are dead on, and I would extend that to Silver Age collectors as well. I'm better at spotting resto than I used to be, but I'm sure there is plenty I'd miss. It's not just unscrupulous dealers, but sellers who don't even know their books are restored. The unintended consequence of slabbing is that lower grade restored GA seems frequently to sell better disclosed and out of the slab, than with the stigma of the PLOD.

[rjrjr]

I'd bet our "Please Grade My..." section is better at grading than Vault as a company.

 

 

 

 

-slym

 

I'm certain it is

 

But sometimes, it is also better at grading than CGC too.

 

That is correct as well... Only difference is, cgc actually handles the books as this "other co" can give you grades via pictures , a la "please grade my ..." Forum section

 

That's not exactly true. The other company will pre-grade your book via images you send them. Actually, that idea has lots of merit. Why send your book in for prescreening when they can prescreen the image you send (and it give you a reason to send the most accurate pictures possible)?

[Jaylam]

The reason for the success of CGC is that the (majority) of the hobby as come to accept and agree with their assessment of grades and trusts their reputation and consistency for doing so. We even apply an added value to books that are CGC graded that verifies the hobby's overall belief and confidence in this. In finding this comfort zone with CGC, we as collectors and sellers have a vested interest in maintaining the trust and success that has been built up with CGC, and CGC has a vested interest in us to keep having that trust to sustain their status in the hobby, so what we have here is not so much a monopoly, but a symbiosis. What did we have before; contention and dissension based on the subjectivity between buyers and sellers? At least we mostly agree that 3rd party grading reduces the subjectivity of grading which as always been a sticking point. This may be over simplistic, but if I'm selling a 9.4 CGC graded, you're buying a 9.4 CGC graded, so we've taken the buyer's and seller's subjectivity out of the equation and we are all much more comfortable with that and like I said before, we assign added value because we both trust CGC's opinion. Maybe I could have said it better, but just my thoughts.

 

I could quibble with the consistency part of your argument, but generally I agree with your points. The one component I would add is that CGCs opinion of a book's grade carries even more weight for many, as they don't trust themselves to grade accurately, let alone spot restoration. There is also the sense that someone has spent the time to carefully grade a book, and is less likely to miss something.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but at least for GA collectors, I think the resto check was crucial in CGC's winning collectors over. It had become known that some dealers were monkeying with books and buyers wanted some protection against that.

 

I think you are dead on, and I would extend that to Silver Age collectors as well. I'm better at spotting resto than I used to be, but I'm sure there is plenty I'd miss. It's not just unscrupulous dealers, but sellers who don't even know their books are restored. The unintended consequence of slabbing is that lower grade restored GA seems frequently to sell better disclosed and out of the slab, than with the stigma of the PLOD.

 

Still, I believe the consistency part is just a symptom of the inherent subjectivity in the hobby. 3rd party grading reduces this, but I don't believe it can ever be removed no matter how much of a science we try to make it. And yes I believe the restoration check is a big plus along with the other things that they look for. I think we have all become better collectors and sellers as a result.

[Tony S]

I'd bet our "Please Grade My..." section is better at grading than Vault as a company.

 

 

 

 

-slym

 

I'm certain it is

 

But sometimes, it is also better at grading than CGC too.

 

That is correct as well... Only difference is, cgc actually handles the books as this "other co" can give you grades via pictures , a la "please grade my ..." Forum section

 

That's not exactly true. The other company will pre-grade your book via images you send them. Actually, that idea has lots of merit. Why send your book in for prescreening when they can prescreen the image you send (and it give you a reason to send the most accurate pictures possible)?

 

I agree. Vault's idea of offering a "pre-grade" that was not guaranteed from a picture is actually a good idea.

 

I remember having someone call me wanting to sell some CGC graded books about three years ago. He had about 50 books - all low grade, common late silver run books. I told him that it was unusual to see this type of material slabbed - the books were worth $5 or less apiece and slabbing them would have cost muc more than that. I asked if he bought them that way or if he (gulp) had them slabbed.

 

His reply was "they screwed the new guy - I had them slabbed". So certainly he could have benefited from "email us some pictures". Of course - if he had done some research - he could have posted those same pics up on the grading fourm here for free.

 

But as I've mentioned before - members of this forum are a tiny percentage of comic book collectors. A very knowledgeable and enthusiastic crowd for sure, but absolutely a tiny part of the hobby.

[comix4fun]

I'd bet our "Please Grade My..." section is better at grading than Vault as a company.

 

 

 

 

-slym

 

I'm certain it is

 

But sometimes, it is also better at grading than CGC too.

 

That is correct as well... Only difference is, cgc actually handles the books as this "other co" can give you grades via pictures , a la "please grade my ..." Forum section

 

That's not exactly true. The other company will pre-grade your book via images you send them. Actually, that idea has lots of merit. Why send your book in for prescreening when they can prescreen the image you send (and it give you a reason to send the most accurate pictures possible)?

 

I agree. Vault's idea of offering a "pre-grade" that was not guaranteed from a picture is actually a good idea.

 

I remember having someone call me wanting to sell some CGC graded books about three years ago. He had about 50 books - all low grade, common late silver run books. I told him that it was unusual to see this type of material slabbed - the books were worth $5 or less apiece and slabbing them would have cost muc more than that. I asked if he bought them that way or if he (gulp) had them slabbed.

 

His reply was "they screwed the new guy - I had them slabbed". So certainly he could have benefited from "email us some pictures". Of course - if he had done some research - he could have posted those same pics up on the grading fourm here for free.

 

But as I've mentioned before - members of this forum are a tiny percentage of comic book collectors. A very knowledgeable and enthusiastic crowd for sure, but absolutely a tiny part of the hobby.

 

 

Pre-grade using scans is GREAT idea, if you are the one collecting the cash for the "service".

 

Any grading company that offers to look at scans and offer anything but the most rudimentary opinion should not be trusted. Collecting cash for looking at scans is in all likelihood a massive screw job.

 

I've got to say, I am having a hard time connecting your likening a "Prescreen Using Scans" service with someone submitting books for grading that aren't worth grading. A prescreen eliminates books below a certain grade, it has nothing to do with an opinion of whether or not they should be graded. Being that the situation you mention were all low grade books, the customer could have said "don't grade anything that is below X grade" and they would not have been graded. It's a specific grade set by the customer and not a "Is it worth grading" opinion.

 

That customer who sent the books to CGC sent enough of them at that he could have availed himself to the same service, but not in a scan. Grading a book by scan is for the "VG/Mint" crowd and not for people interested in accuracy.

[thirdgreenham]

VG/Mint