THE AMAZING FANTASY #15 CLUB 39 39

[NoMan]

46 minutes ago, namisgr said:

Two things in reaction to your post.  First, a rat chew will destroy a part of the entire book, and not just remove small parts of the front or back cover.  Second, it has been my experience that CGC severely downgrades otherwise high grade comics for Marvel chipping.  The magnitude of the downgrade depends on the degree of chipping (pre-chips, or chips gone, just one edge or multiple edges, just a single chip, a couple, or many), and the grade of the comic had there otherwise been no chipping.  The lower the grade, the less impactful any chipping, especially so for minor instances.

 

I used to own the Pacific Coast copy of JIM #90.  It was an otherwise near mint comic (I owned the comic before it was ever slabbed, and so know its quality) with severe pre-chipping along the right edge of the front cover, and including a bit of prechipping along the top edge as well.  No chips were missing.  It was graded a 7.0, proving that CGC does indeed downgrade substantially for Marvel chipping under certain circumstances.  At one time I owned several other high grade early SA Marvels whose numerical grades were influenced by various degrees of chipping/prechipping.

Looking at comics over the phone is tough. That's a sharp looking copy. Congrats for having been it in your collection at one time!

Edited March 27, 2017 by NoMan

[lou_fine]

14 minutes ago, entalmighty1 said:

38 minutes ago, namisgr said:

Two things in reaction to your post.  First, a rat chew will destroy a part of the entire book, and not just remove small parts of the front or back cover.  Second, it has been my experience that CGC severely downgrades otherwise high grade comics for Marvel chipping.  The magnitude of the downgrade depends on the degree of chipping (pre-chips, or chips gone, just one edge or multiple edges, just a single chip, a couple, or many), and the grade of the comic had there otherwise been no chipping.  The lower the grade, the less impactful any chipping, especially so for minor instances.

 

I used to own the Pacific Coast copy of JIM #90.  It was an otherwise near mint comic (I owned the comic before it was ever slabbed, and so know its quality) with severe pre-chipping along the right edge of the front cover, and including a bit of prechipping along the top edge as well.  No chips were missing.  It was graded a 7.0, proving that CGC does indeed downgrade substantially for Marvel chipping under certain circumstances.  At one time I owned several other high grade early SA Marvels whose numerical grades were influenced by various degrees of chipping/prechipping.

So it could be that they do downgrade for chipping, but specific blue chip books get a pass.  That's an even more disturbing business decision than ignoring it completely.  I've got a copy of ToS 52 that has several chips missing that got a 6.5, otherwise looks 7.5-8.0 to me.

 

The problem is that this is where the whole thing can turn into a big jumbo ball of confused mess.

So, are collector supposed to be guessing if CGC has taken the impact of Marvel chipping into account when they have graded a book, as it certainly seems hard to tell from the 2 examples pictured above.  The boardie says that the superior presenting JIM 90 has been severely downgraded to reflect the impact of both Marvel chipping and pre-chipping and that is how they came up with the 7.0 final grade.  On the other hand, clear and obvious Marvel chipping was not taken into account and that is how the inferior presenting TOS 52 was able to achieve a 6.5 final grade.   

So, at what point do the 2 lines cross over where CGC takes Marvel chipping and pre-chipping into account when grading a book, as opposed to when they ignore it on a particular book.  Or could the difference be an undisclosed change in their undisclosed grading standards as the JIM was graded way back in 2004 while the TOS was graded much more recently just a few months ago.  Or could it simply be nothing more than a tight SA grading time period for the JIM versus a looser SA grading time period for the TOS.  Who really knows at this point in time?   

  Maybe CGC can clearly state right on their label whether Marvel chipping was taken into account or not in the determination of the final grade for books which exhibit any type of chipping or pre-chipping.  This way, both buyers and sellers can be more fully informed as to exactly what the label grade is actually reflecting, as opposed to having to make a guess.    

 

 

[entalmighty1]

11 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

The problem is that this is where the whole thing can turn into a big jumbo ball of confused mess.

So, are collector supposed to be guessing if CGC has taken the impact of Marvel chipping into account when they have graded a book, as it certainly seems hard to tell from the 2 examples pictured above.  The boardie says that the superior presenting JIM 90 has been severely downgraded to reflect the impact of both Marvel chipping and pre-chipping and that is how they came up with the 7.0 final grade.  On the other hand, clear and obvious Marvel chipping was not taken into account and that is how the inferior presenting TOS 52 was able to achieve a 6.5 final grade.   

So, at what point do the 2 lines cross over where CGC takes Marvel chipping and pre-chipping into account when grading a book, as opposed to when they ignore it on a particular book.  Or could the difference be an undisclosed change in their undisclosed grading standards as the JIM was graded way back in 2004 while the TOS was graded much more recently just a few months ago.  Or could it simply be nothing more than a tight SA grading time period for the JIM versus a looser SA grading time period for the TOS.  Who really knows at this point in time?   

  Maybe CGC can clearly state right on their label whether Marvel chipping was taken into account or not in the determination of the final grade for books which exhibit any type of chipping or pre-chipping.  This way, both buyers and sellers can be more fully informed as to exactly what the label grade is actually reflecting, as opposed to having to make a guess.    

 

 

I agree with everything you've said, but CGC will never do that.  I suspect for the same reason they won't publish their grading guidelines.  Proprietary information/system, whatever you want to call it.  If they tell you exactly how they grade, I guess they assume they'll see a drop in their customer base.  I happen to believe it's the exact opposite.  Transparency will help the consumer decide on a service provider, whether CGC or a competitor.  Knowing full well the results of a submission (if you know and apply their grading guidelines) would probably entice more people to submit, rather than hesitate because they're scared CGC will hammer the chipping, or staining, or whatever other ambiguous applications of their system we see.

[Dark Knight]

I too believe that CGC or any other grading company should hammer down on marvel chipping when it comes to the final grade. It's a significant defect that should be taken into account that lowers the visual appeal of the book. If CGC has graded harshly with staining and how they changed their stance on tape, I don't why they wouldn't do the same with chipping (pre and full-on).

I first noticed the difference in pricing with books having the same grade about 10 years ago when Metro had several AF 15's up for sale with about 2-3 of the same graded copy but with difference in pricing. I've always back then wondered why this 3.5 copy is cheaper than the other.  After thinking through it clearly, I then assumed that visual eye appeal had something to do with it and have taken that into account when I buy books. Practically all the bigger keys I've owned since then have had strong eye appeal and would never settle for less. 

It seems now collectors/investors have taken the strong eye appeal factor  into account regardless of grade, which should have been in affect years ago. The gap seems to be widely spreading in values between chipped and non chipped copies kinda like restored vs unrestored copies.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Dark Knight

[namisgr]

I think CGC has always considered Marvel chipping a deduction-worthy defect.  Like I mentioned before, I think the size of the deduction depends on the severity of the chipping and the quality of the comic had it not been chipped.

 

Still, it wouldn't surprise me if deductions for chipping have been one of the less consistent aspects of the CGC grading process.  Over their 17 plus years of doing business, and with the dozens of graders working during that time, there has probably been a fair amount of wobble in how chipping has been handled.

[NoMan]

Apologize if it's been covered here, but: what does the "pre-chipping" look like?

[SC22]

1 hour ago, NoMan said:

Apologize if it's been covered here, but: what does the "pre-chipping" look like?

 

1 hour ago, NoMan said:

 

It looks like on my copy of AF15. Those lines you see to the right hand side of the front cover.

 

Edited March 27, 2017 by SupergirlDC19591

[NoMan]

Ok. Thanks for posting. So the crease looking lines on the right side of book (through the building) is the pre-chipping? So the chunk missing above the "g" is a chip missing?

Edited March 27, 2017 by NoMan

[namisgr]

2 minutes ago, NoMan said:

Ok. Thanks for posting. So the crease looking lines on the right side of book (through the building) is the pre-chipping?

Yes, and also the prechip just underneath Spidey's webbing.  It also appears that the upper right corner is a prechip, because it has a jagged edge unlike a corner crease would.

Edited March 27, 2017 by namisgr

[SC22]

1 hour ago, NoMan said:

Ok. Thanks for posting. So the crease looking lines on the right side of book (through the building) is the pre-chipping? So the chunk missing above the "g" is a chip missing?

Yes.

[Jaydogrules]

For every one guy here who pooh-pooh's a book with a little Marvel chipping, there are probably 20 who will just be happy to own the book at whatever the best grade is that they can afford.  

Obviously everybody would like to own "the best" of whatever there is out there.  But once that one copy is sold, us mere peasants with less discriminating tastes still want to own a copy, so we bid and bid and bid on all of those remaining "inferior" copies until their prices are just as high (or higher) as the one "nicer" copy that you thought you were paying a "premium" for.  

Thus the simple law of supply and demand ultimately winning out over the entirely subjective notion of "eye appeal" (probably why CGC has not ever publicly factored that into its grading criteria in the first place).

-J.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Jaydogrules

[SC22]

CGC does take into account marvel chipping for the final grade on a book look at the CGC grader's notes for my AF15 CGC 6.5.

Full Right Front Cover Small Marvel Chipping

Right Top Front Cover Chip Out

Spine Stress Lines Breaks Color

[SC22]

1 hour ago, Jaydogrules said:

For every one guy here who pooh-pooh's a book with a little Marvel chipping, there are probably 20 who will just be happy to own the book at whatever the best grade is that they can afford.  

Obviously everybody would like to own "the best" of whatever there is out there.  But once that one copy is sold, us mere peasants with less discriminating tastes still want to own a copy, so we bid and bid and bid on all of those remaining "inferior" copies until their priced are just as high as the one "nicer" copy that you thought you were paying a "premium" for.  

Thus the simple law of supply and demand ultimately winning out over the entirely subjective notion of "eye appeal" (probably why CGC has not ever publicly factored that into its grading criteria in the first place).

-J.

Agreed this is becoming absurd CGC does take into account marvel chipping (based on my grader's notes for my book).

[SC22]

1 hour ago, SupergirlDC19591 said:

CGC does take into account marvel chipping for the final grade on a book look at the CGC grader's notes for my AF15 CGC 6.5.

Full Right Front Cover Small Marvel Chipping

Right Top Front Cover Chip Out

Spine Stress Lines Breaks Color

If it was not for the marvel chipping on my book it would have most likely been a 7.5 to a 8.0.

[NoMan]

11 minutes ago, namisgr said:

Yes, and also the prechip just underneath Spidey's webbing.  It also appears that the upper right corner is a prechip, because it has a jagged edge unlike a corner crease would.

Thank you. 

[Jordysnordy]

I think buyers will always pay more for nicer presenting copies, whether it be no MC, perfect centering or white pages. But as Jay pointed out, as all the superior copies get bought up, someone who still wants a copy will probably settle for a lower grade/lower eye appeal copy until they can acquire a better copy or risk being shut out all together. As prices continue to spiral upward, being shut out will become a real concern.

[lou_fine]

1 hour ago, SupergirlDC19591 said:

1 hour ago, Jaydogrules said:

Thus the simple law of supply and demand ultimately winning out over the entirely subjective notion of "eye appeal" (probably why CGC has not ever publicly factored that into its grading criteria in the first place).

-J.

Agreed this is becoming absurd CGC does take into account marvel chipping (based on my grader's notes for my book).

Well, from the way that I am reading it, looks like Jaydog is saying that CGC does not factor Marvel chipping into their grading criteria, while you are saying they do. 

[SC22]

1 hour ago, lou_fine said:

Well, from the way that I am reading it, looks like Jaydog is saying that CGC does not factor Marvel chipping into their grading criteria, while you are saying they do. 

Of course they do look at the grader's notes for my AF15 (it's right there...Chipping)

Full Right Front Cover Small Marvel Chipping

Right Top Front Cover Chip Out

Spine Stress Lines Breaks Color

[SC22]

1 hour ago, Jordysnordy said:

I think buyers will always pay more for nicer presenting copies, whether it be no MC, perfect centering or white pages. But as Jay pointed out, as all the superior copies get bought up, someone who still wants a copy will probably settle for a lower grade/lower eye appeal copy until they can acquire a better copy or risk being shut out all together. As prices continue to spiral upward, being shut out will become a real concern.

Agreed prices are going to continue to rise and it's better to get into the ''game'' sooner than later.....of course if you have the choice buy the nicest looking copy you can come by and can afford.

[namisgr]

I thought it was pretty clear from the near mint Pacific Coast copy of JIM #90 with extensive pre-chipping that sits in a CGC 7.0 slab.

 

They always have.  The lower grade the comic and the less severe the chipping, the less impactful the chipping is on the numerical grade.

Edited March 27, 2017 by namisgr