Ive lost ALL confidence in CGC - UPDATE on page 221 2 2

[Davenport]

I like to think there isn't a way to 'game' the system... A few people on here who's opinion's and knowledge on this I respect greatly, say there isn't... But I also know the PERCEPTION amongst many... more than many,... is that they believe there is... And that needs to be something CGC is concerned with.

 

No matter how much the truth may be the truth, perception can overtake it. And that could be damaging.

Major difference between "gaming the system" and "a rigged game".

 

Everything about the Grading System is designed to be gamed. CGC sells a point-in-time opinion for a fee. For another fee you can buy another point-in-time, another chance at getting the outcome you desire. And you have definition-caveates and satellite services that allow for and aid in manipulations.

 

All that's different than "a rigged game" where an outcome is bought outright, where both the system and the game are an illusion.

[kav]

I still think CGC is doing the best job humanly possible. I can't imagine any company not getting criticism. Maybe if the grading was done by computers. Humans-no way.

[Moondog]

I've even talked to graders a few days or a few weeks after grading a book and they have no idea which book I'm talking about.

 

I'd liken it to working in a grocery store and trying to remember what all the people looked like last week. The odd person might jog your memory if they looked like an Action #1 but for the most part, it's a blur.

I'm curious how long some posters think CGC graders spend on a book. 12 seconds? 20?

Some of the posts seem like they imagine Graders do extensive CSI type investigative exams.

 

This goes back to my statement that CGC needs more professional graders. To properly examine and grade GA and SA books takes too much time at the prices they charge. If they raise prices and then hire more graders and give them more time to grade each book, scams like this will diminish.

 

Now, what new pricing structure can the market bear? I know I would pay 50% more.

 

If it appears I'm campaigning for higher prices - I'm not. I'm campaigning for better results.

[Moondog]

I've even talked to graders a few days or a few weeks after grading a book and they have no idea which book I'm talking about.

 

I'd liken it to working in a grocery store and trying to remember what all the people looked like last week. The odd person might jog your memory if they looked like an Action #1 but for the most part, it's a blur.

I'm curious how long some posters think CGC graders spend on a book. 12 seconds? 20?

Some of the posts seem like they imagine Graders do extensive CSI type investigative exams.

 

I'd think it depends on the book. I'd venture a guess and say 30-60 seconds. Some more, some less depending on era, grade, resto, etc.

 

 

How can one do a resto check, count all the pages and examine them for rips/tears/chunks missing, and then grade a book in 30-60 seconds? Impossible, Roy. Maybe on a modern, but we're talking a SA key here. I would spend 4-6 minutes on this book minimum.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I have a serious question for everyone.

 

Suppose a legitimate competitor pops up tomorrow. Someone the hobby believes in with real backing.

 

Will those here pay more for books in those holders?

 

Will you frequent the sites that carry them primarily?

 

Will you immediately send your books in for grading at the new service?

 

What if your books will sell for less in a new company's holder?

 

What if the transparency were no greater at the new company?

 

Would people be willing to sell their books for less short term to help support the credibility of the new company?

 

Curious to hear people's responses

 

This happens already.

 

NGC (CGC's sister company) graded coins sell for a little less than PCGS, especially at the ultra high grades.

 

There are advantages to both services.

 

Whether someone will pay more for a legitimate competitor, the competitor has to offer something that CGC does not...and there are a lot of things that CGC does not. The transparency CANNOT be "no greater", or it fails.

[RockMyAmadeus]

PS....Overstreet is NOT the direction a legitimate competitor needs to go.

 

It will require a lot of money, far, far more than it took to start up CGC, and the investors have to understand that they will see no return on investment...none...for at least 5 years.

 

None.

 

Who will do that?

 

Answer: people who have the means, for whom the money isn't an issue, and who value the principle over the profit, at least in the short to mid-term.

 

In other words...no one so far.

 

Competition makes everyone better.

[Moondog]

I imagine it takes them longer than one minute. Even on a book with no flaws.

 

By the time you remove the book from the bag, and flip through the pages (gently, I'm assuming) to make sure they're all there and not torn/ripped/pieces missing/drawn on/indented/etc...you've probably hit the minute mark already.

 

You still have to look at the cover, make notes, assess the damage, assign a grade, return it to the bag, etc...

 

It definitely takes longer than a minute.

 

I have no inside info, but I assume the page count is done prior to grading and any damage to the inside is notated for the graders.

I forget the number but I remember being stunned at the number of books they graded at a Wizard show a few years back.

 

Back in the early days, it was fairly easy to reach and talk to Steve Borock. I was talking to him once about grading, how long it took, how incredibly boring I thought the job would be. He told me that by the time the books reach the graders, a page count has already been done, the restoration check is done. Missing coupons or such is noted. Graders only have to assign a grade.

 

I don't know if anyone knows the average time except CGC managers, but freed of checking for things I've mentioned, the grading goes a lot quicker.

 

Then 1-3 minutes for GA and SA should do it.

 

[Tony S]

 

How can one do a resto check, count all the pages and examine them for rips/tears/chunks missing, and then grade a book in 30-60 seconds? Impossible, Roy. Maybe on a modern, but we're talking a SA key here. I would spend 4-6 minutes on this book minimum.

 

That's not how it's done. By the time the graders get the book, a page count has already been done. The resto check has already been done. Graders know if it has been restored and if there are any missing pages or coupons cut. They only have to grade.

 

Steve Borock shared this with me years ago.

 

It's a little off the OP's subject, but I suggest CGC needs to hire more staff and get more equipment on the encapsulation side. It is fairly clear that is where the hold up is at. Books sit as graded for weeks and months waiting to be encapsulated. Clearly the graders can produce books ready for slabbing faster than encapsulation can slab.

 

[kav]

They could hire illegal aliens to encapsulate. Or teenagers. WTH?

[Jiminy_Cricket-migration]

 

How can one do a resto check, count all the pages and examine them for rips/tears/chunks missing, and then grade a book in 30-60 seconds? Impossible, Roy. Maybe on a modern, but we're talking a SA key here. I would spend 4-6 minutes on this book minimum.

 

That's not how it's done. By the time the graders get the book, a page count has already been done. The resto check has already been done. Graders know if it has been restored and if there are any missing pages or coupons cut. They only have to grade.

 

Steve Borock shared this with me years ago.

 

It's a little off the OP's subject, but I suggest CGC needs to hire more staff and get more equipment on the encapsulation side. It is fairly clear that is where the hold up is at. Books sit as graded for weeks and months waiting to be encapsulated. Clearly the graders can produce books ready for slabbing faster than encapsulation can slab.

 

Couldn't CGC subcontract some of the grading/slabbing out to PGX when they get behind?

[Jiminy_Cricket-migration]

[rjpb]

I've even talked to graders a few days or a few weeks after grading a book and they have no idea which book I'm talking about.

 

I'd liken it to working in a grocery store and trying to remember what all the people looked like last week. The odd person might jog your memory if they looked like an Action #1 but for the most part, it's a blur.

I'm curious how long some posters think CGC graders spend on a book. 12 seconds? 20?

Some of the posts seem like they imagine Graders do extensive CSI type investigative exams.

 

This goes back to my statement that CGC needs more professional graders. To properly examine and grade GA and SA books takes too much time at the prices they charge. If they raise prices and then hire more graders and give them more time to grade each book, scams like this will diminish.

 

Now, what new pricing structure can the market bear? I know I would pay 50% more.

 

If it appears I'm campaigning for higher prices - I'm not. I'm campaigning for better results.

 

 

There is already a premium attached to grading pre-1980 books, and unless you are using the value tier for grading at least 15 books you're comfortable insuring for $150 or less, then it 's going to cost you at least $40 - $50 bucks a book to grade them now once shipping is factored in. Raise prices by 50% and it's probably going to mean a lot less under $300 GA thru BA books sent in.

 

Though from a raw low-mid grade collector's point of view, that might not be a bad thing.

 

[kav]

I'm pretty sure if You gave me a stereomicroscope and some trimmed and untrimmed books and a few hours I would have a 100% error-free trimming detection rate.....

[Balham's Finest]

I like to think there isn't a way to 'game' the system... A few people on here who's opinion's and knowledge on this I respect greatly, say there isn't... But I also know the PERCEPTION amongst many... more than many,... is that they believe there is... And that needs to be something CGC is concerned with.

 

No matter how much the truth may be the truth, perception can overtake it. And that could be damaging.

 

Timing it so your book is set to be finalized when all the top graders are not around to do so is gaming the system, unless you want to think it was a coincidence. It shows that the person was pretty familiar with CGCs workings and from that I think it shows he is a pretty heavy submitter. Sending a newbie friend here to say the submitter was aware of this but don't see the need to respond, if true, is just weak.

 

The "top graders"? If the people who are in the office can't be relied on to detect resto and grade appropriately, then they shouldn't be allowed near the books.

 

What might make sense is to require the sign off of one of the most senior people for books over a particular value, but detecting trimming is different.

 

[DougC]

I'm pretty sure if You gave me a stereomicroscope and some trimmed and untrimmed books and a few hours I would have a 100% error-free trimming detection rate.....

 

 

I think you boast of claims that you know nothing about.

[kav]

I'm pretty sure if You gave me a stereomicroscope and some trimmed and untrimmed books and a few hours I would have a 100% error-free trimming detection rate.....

 

 

I think you boast of claims that you know nothing about.

With a degree in Biology and previous forensics experience I have a pretty good grasp of what is possible to accomplish with a stereomicroscope. Coloration and surface changes in pulp over time is something quantifiable.

[Conan_Aficionado]

I'm pretty sure if You gave me a stereomicroscope and some trimmed and untrimmed books and a few hours I would have a 100% error-free trimming detection rate.....

 

 

I think you boast of claims that you know nothing about.

With a degree in Biology and previous forensics experience I have a pretty good grasp of what is possible to accomplish with a stereomicroscope. Coloration and surface changes in pulp over time is something quantifiable.

 

That's cool kav, I love CSI.

[Conan_Aficionado]

you have no idea how many times I've thought of committing the perfect crime to inherit the house already, these people just wont die. I need my inheritance now.

[timfinz]

you have no idea how many times I've thought of committing the perfect crime to inherit the house already, these people just wont die. I need my inheritance now.

I've lost all confidence in this thread!

[kav]

you have no idea how many times I've thought of committing the perfect crime to inherit the house already, these people just wont die. I need my inheritance now.

Get this-one dude was convicted on a tiny, half pencil-eraser size piece from a dollar bill. He robbed, shot and killed his victim. One of the bullets went through victim's rt front pocket, and clipped off a tiny piece of the bill. A really good CSI tech (and no they do NOT interview suspects-they'd be fired for that!) picked the tiny piece of paper from the pocket, realizing its importance. When the suspect was apprehended, the bill in his possession was matched by stereomicroscope to the fragment....