DC and Marvel movie results: 1978 to present 5 5

[jaybuck43]

On 12/5/2023 at 8:27 AM, VintageComics said:

For two months I've been getting lambasted by irate boardies who have tried to oppose me for the central, irrefutable point I've been making.

That point has been that Disney and other corporations have been adulterating the art form by having overarching agendas that have nothing to do with good story telling. 

I've shown my work in longform and in clear detail on how and why. I've been called names for it, ganged up on accused of lying and making things up. I've even been accused of posting things nobody wants to hear about. I've been accusing of talking about politics, when in fact I've only spoken about economics. Meanwhile the people opposed to the discussion are pushing their politics in an effort to drown out the discussion on economics. 

Well, of course you're not going to hear about it if your beliefs are built on a foundation of sand and what I'm saying is toppling your structure. 

I've shown clearly that Disney and competitors have prioritized messaging and virtue signalling over storytelling. It's unequivocal and yet people have their head in the sand and refuse to acknowledge it, let alone prove me wrong. 

Well now, Disney's Iger has come out and stated EXACTLY what I've been getting thrashed for, for the last 2 months.

@PopKulture @Buzzetta @Cat @Hulksdaddy1

@jaybuck43 @delekkerste @Bosco685

Can we have a consensus on this? 

I won't post the entire article, because it contains political speak but you can find it on Social Media. It's a CNBC article. 

Good grief, people, can we finally acknowledge that many had no idea what they were talking about, that some of us did and we can FINALLY bring some normalcy into this place now that the Wizard of Oz behind the curtain has been exposed?

Disney has shown their kink in the armor and it's game over. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Disney CEO Bob Iger says company's movies have been too focused on messaging

Disney CEO Bob Iger acknowledged his company has focused too much on movie messaging and not enough on quality storytelling.

Disney Chief Executive Officer Bob Iger said Wednesday he will no longer tolerate his company's partners and creative team prioritizing messaging over storytelling.

"Creators lost sight of what their No. 1 objective needed to be," Iger said at the DealBook Summit in New York on Wednesday. "We have to entertain first. It's not about messages."

Iger has recently pushed to improve the quality of Disney films in 2024 and beyond. He is cutting back the number of movies Disney makes to focus on making better films. Earlier this week, he told Disney employees at a town hall that creating hit movies is the best way the company can change perception for investors and employees.

Iger said Disney's prioritization of messaging over storytelling peaked "while [he] was gone" in 2022, alluding to the 11 months he left his job as Disney's executive chairman. Iger had been in charge of "creative endeavors" in 2020 and 2021, even while Bob Chapek ran the company as CEO.

Who has said that Disney wasn't putting messages into its films? You've been pilloried because you've acted as if it's a massive conspiracy theory.  From its first full length film Disney has been including "messages" in its storytelling.  The original Disney films were fables (you know, the thing that tells a succulent story that LEADS TO a moral lesson.  You know, messaging.  Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs (Vanity will not take you far, kindness will).  Sleeping Beauty (True Love conquers all), Pinnocio (Don't tell lies, I mean if you missed the moral here it was literally beaten into you).

Even the article mentions this.  It also mentions what the real issue is "[Igor] believes the company’s storytelling has suffered as the company has increased the number of movies it’s made for both Disney+ and theatrical release."

[jaybuck43]

On 12/1/2023 at 6:36 PM, paperheart said:

Ocean of red ink for CBM's this year; awaiting Aquaman's contribution

Where did you get your BO to WB/DIS from?  The typical split in most countries (not China) is 55% to the distributor, which would put it closer to $250+ for Antman for instance.  

[VintageComics]

On 12/5/2023 at 9:29 AM, jaybuck43 said:

Who has said that Disney wasn't putting messages into its films? You've been pilloried because you've acted as if it's a massive conspiracy theory.  From its first full length film Disney has been including "messages" in its storytelling.  The original Disney films were fables (you know, the thing that tells a succulent story that LEADS TO a moral lesson.  You know, messaging.  Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs (Vanity will not take you far, kindness will).  Sleeping Beauty (True Love conquers all), Pinnocio (Don't tell lies, I mean if you missed the moral here it was literally beaten into you).

Even the article mentions this.  It also mentions what the real issue is "[Igor] believes the company’s storytelling has suffered as the company has increased the number of movies it’s made for both Disney+ and theatrical release."

You're misrepresenting the point I've been making and I'm not sure why?

I'm aware and agree that Disney has always had messages.

My point, which I made clear when namisgr in another discussion stated that 'Disney movies have always had messages', was that the messaging is now affecting the art form in greater measure than ever before, and I clearly showed why: Because the investment principles that guide large firms have been prioritizing their messaging over their actual products. The messaging of these corporations was the driving force, not the products and Disney is now yet another multi-billion dollar corporation in a long line of them that has begun backtracking. 

It would be really nice if people acknowledged the obvious rather than pretend it's not happening. 

[Mr Sneeze]

On 12/4/2023 at 3:05 PM, VintageComics said:

On 12/4/2023 at 1:48 PM, Mr Sneeze said:

Well, you’re definitely beating something.

It's so fun! 

Indeed! However, I was referring to your dead horse.

[jaybuck43]

On 12/5/2023 at 9:41 AM, VintageComics said:

You're misrepresenting the point I've been making and I'm not sure why?

I'm aware and agree that Disney has always had messages.

My point, which I made clear when namisgr in another discussion stated that 'Disney movies have always had messages', was that the messaging is now affecting the art form in greater measure than ever before, and I clearly showed why: Because the investment principles that guide large firms have been prioritizing their messaging over their actual products. The messaging of these corporations was the driving force, not the products and Disney is now yet another multi-billion dollar corporation in a long line of them that has begun backtracking. 

It would be really nice if people acknowledged the obvious rather than pretend it's not happening. 

"Art Form" means what exactly?  Was Iron Man an academy award winner?  What about Pirates of the Caribbean?  You can make the argument that Disney "ruined" Pixar, but not because of "messaging", but because they basically commoditized the heck out of it (LETS MAKE 30 SEQUELS, Toy Story TO THE MOON).  Disney was never known for its amazing storytelling.  They made beautiful animation and spectacles.  They're media McDonalds, churn out blah tasting meals that SELL (as opposed to the high end boutique burger places).

Here's the thing, Igor isn't backtracking anything.  He's playing PR clean up to try to help the stock, because the narrative of people SAYING they're hurting is the issue. At the end of the day the "messaging" hasn't hurt Disney's revenue in the least bit.  Their media business is making more money than ever.  

2022           2021        2020       2019         2018      2017          2016

$55,040    $50,866   $54,996  $45,340   $39,138  $36,722  $38,658

[VintageComics]

On 12/5/2023 at 10:10 AM, jaybuck43 said:

"Art Form" means what exactly?  Was Iron Man an academy award winner?  What about Pirates of the Caribbean?  You can make the argument that Disney "ruined" Pixar, but not because of "messaging", but because they basically commoditized the heck out of it (LETS MAKE 30 SEQUELS, Toy Story TO THE MOON).  Disney was never known for its amazing storytelling.  They made beautiful animation and spectacles.  They're media McDonalds, churn out blah tasting meals that SELL (as opposed to the high end boutique burger places).

Here's the thing, Igor isn't backtracking anything.  He's playing PR clean up to try to help the stock, because the narrative of people SAYING they're hurting is the issue. At the end of the day the "messaging" hasn't hurt Disney's revenue in the least bit.  Their media business is making more money than ever.  

2022           2021        2020       2019         2018      2017          2016

$55,040    $50,866   $54,996  $45,340   $39,138  $36,722  $38,658

So far it seems the ESG movement has been met with significant enough resistance that everyone seems to be 'playing PR clean up', so maybe it's just a coincidence? 

Time will tell. It always does, but one thing is for sure, business is a complicated thing and even the most powerful business minds in the world get it wrong.

As for "Disney media" being profitable?

Well, we all know a picture is worth a 1000 words and a 1000 words are not really worth a picture, so I'll leave you with this:

Disney stock is at half it's peak in late 2021 when I said the ESG movement peaked, and is at the same level it was back in late 2014.

Just amazing what we consider progress these days. 

I think I've said enough, and I know there are many that will agree with me.

[jaybuck43]

On 12/5/2023 at 10:22 AM, VintageComics said:

So far it seems the ESG movement has been met with significant enough resistance that everyone seems to be 'playing PR clean up', so maybe it's just a coincidence? 

Time will tell. It always does, but one thing is for sure, business is a complicated thing and even the most powerful business minds in the world get it wrong.

As for "Disney media" being profitable?

Well, we all know a picture is worth a 1000 words and a 1000 words are not really worth a picture, so I'll leave you with this:

Disney stock is at half it's peak in late 2021 when I said the ESG movement peaked, and is at the same level it was back in late 2014.

Just amazing what we consider progress these days. 

I think I've said enough, and I know there are many that will agree with me.

The stock was and is overpriced.  THAT is the reason why the stock price has plummeted, as people have gotten off the hype bandwagon.  Look at the P/E number, that is INSANELY high.  A good P/E is somewhere between 10 and 20.  70 is basically speculation levels.  Investors went NUTS with streaming in 2018, figuring any company involved in streaming was TO THE MOON.  Wheels fell off that particular hope factory though.  

[Dr. Balls]

On 12/5/2023 at 8:10 AM, jaybuck43 said:

At the end of the day the "messaging" hasn't hurt Disney's revenue in the least bit.  Their media business is making more money than ever.  

2022           2021        2020       2019         2018      2017          2016

$55,040    $50,866   $54,996  $45,340   $39,138  $36,722  $38,658

Making more money is not equal to what their profit margin is - which I don't know if that's disclosed anywhere in annual report information. I mean, you're not wrong about them generating more revenue, but there is a lot of the picture we don't see. As for their messaging, yes - they've always had it, but there's a very large discrepancy between messaging from the 40's to the 2020's:

Pinocchio: Lying is bad.

Falcon and Winter Soldier: Banks don't loan money to black people.

The messaging now is a propagandized tool to help them win a 100% CEI score, which they proudly tout as a badge of honor. They likely encourage the same efforts toward ESG. It's glaringly obvious that Disney's "messaging" is geared more towards tyrannical snowflake brainwashing than the old baseline moral lessons that reinforced a more normal behavior. It's a painfully uncreative, forced, staged and shoehorned narrative into their entertainment, and hopefully losing enough luster that Disney will opt to get rid of the side narratives most people have come to find annoying in the movies and shows.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Dr. Balls
Removing political terminology to a term that is more Disney-friendly.

[VintageComics]

On 12/5/2023 at 10:32 AM, jaybuck43 said:

The stock was and is overpriced.  THAT is the reason why the stock price has plummeted, as people have gotten off the hype bandwagon.  Look at the P/E number, that is INSANELY high.  A good P/E is somewhere between 10 and 20.  70 is basically speculation levels.  Investors went NUTS with streaming in 2018, figuring any company involved in streaming was TO THE MOON.  Wheels fell off that particular hope factory though.  

You call it what you want. I call it a checkmate. Have a good day. 

[jaybuck43]

On 12/5/2023 at 10:33 AM, Dr. Balls said:

Making more money is not equal to what their profit margin is - which I don't know if that's disclosed anywhere in annual report information. I mean, you're not wrong about them generating more revenue, but there is a lot of the picture we don't see. As for their messaging, yes - they've always had it, but there's a very large discrepancy between messaging from the 40's to the 2020's:

Pinocchio: Lying is bad.

Falcon and Winter Soldier: Banks don't loan money to black people.

The messaging now is a propagandized tool to help them win a 100% CEI score, which they proudly tout as a badge of honor. They likely encourage the same efforts toward ESG. It's glaringly obvious that Disney's "messaging" is geared more towards tyrannical liberal brainwashing than the old baseline moral lessons that reinforced a more normal behavior. It's a painfully uncreative, forced, staged and shoehorned narrative into their entertainment, and hopefully losing enough luster that Disney will opt to get rid of the side narratives most people have come to find annoying in the movies and shows.

Profitability per year:

2022         2021      2020       2019     2018        2017       2016

$4,216   $7295       $8717     $8330  $11,237   $11,001  $12,423

You can see the massive drop off when the Netflix deal ends (2019).  And then the ramp up of streaming causes more and more losses.

The reason I use revenue instead of profitability is because revenue corresponds with popularity and use.  Profitability doesn't.  

[namisgr]

On 12/5/2023 at 10:33 AM, Dr. Balls said:

Pinocchio: Lying is bad.

Falcon and Winter Soldier: Banks don't loan money to black people.

Prince Charming (Sleeping Beauty, Snow White): Young women need being saved by a man to make their lives worthwhile

Lady and the Tramp: Siamese cats as a vehicle for stereotypical racist depiction of Asian cultures

It's a pattern that pre-dates and is by no means restricted to early Disney filmmaking.  Movies have been vehicles for messages and cultural concepts since their inception.

Edited December 5, 2023 by namisgr

[jaybuck43]

On 12/5/2023 at 1:28 PM, namisgr said:

Prince Charming (Sleeping Beauty, Snow White): Young women need being saved by a man to make their lives worthwhile

Lady and the Tramp: Siamese cats as a vehicle for stereotypical racist depiction of Asian cultures

It's a pattern that pre-dates and is by no means restricted to early Disney filmmaking.  Movies have been vehicles for messages and cultural concepts since their inception.

Just depends on what cultural concept was "popular" at the time.  Apparently in the 1940s asians were half human half snake and African Americans had lips that would make a Kardashian say "naw thats a bit much".

[paperheart]

On 12/5/2023 at 6:33 AM, jaybuck43 said:

Where did you get your BO to WB/DIS from?  The typical split in most countries (not China) is 55% to the distributor, which would put it closer to $250+ for Antman for instance.  

No chance they’re getting 55% from other int’l 

[jaybuck43]

On 12/5/2023 at 2:22 PM, paperheart said:

No chance they’re getting 55% from other int’l 

What weights did you use?  For instance, in 2022 I have Disney's total global box office at $3.814 billion.  This number isn't exact.  Why?  Because there are holdovers (i.e. movies released in 2021 that had revenue in 2022) which is hard to attribute exactly how much globally each week without wanting to pull my hair out getting these numbers.  Disney 10K reported theatrical revenue (meaning what they actually RECEIVED from the theaters at $1,875,000,000.  Meaning overall, Disney received close to 50% (49.16%) of global theater revenue in 2022.  

[paperheart]

On 12/5/2023 at 12:19 PM, jaybuck43 said:

What weights did you use?  For instance, in 2022 I have Disney's total global box office at $3.814 billion.  This number isn't exact.  Why?  Because there are holdovers (i.e. movies released in 2021 that had revenue in 2022) which is hard to attribute exactly how much globally each week without wanting to pull my hair out getting these numbers.  Disney 10K reported theatrical revenue (meaning what they actually RECEIVED from the theaters at $1,875,000,000.  Meaning overall, Disney received close to 50% (49.16%) of global theater revenue in 2022.  

Same as Deadline does in their year end estimates (which is all these are): 55%, 40%, 25%

[VintageComics]

On 12/5/2023 at 1:28 PM, namisgr said:

On 12/5/2023 at 10:33 AM, Dr. Balls said:

Pinocchio: Lying is bad.

Falcon and Winter Soldier: Banks don't loan money to black people.

Prince Charming (Sleeping Beauty, Snow White): Young women need being saved by a man to make their lives worthwhile

Why are you denigrating women that way? It's not about 'feeling worthwhile'. Many women still want to live in traditional roles. They are biologically wired that way. 

Do you ever even speak to any women? 

I talk to MANY and the many that I speak to generally prefer traditional roles. It might even be MOST women I speak to, but I didn't start a spreadsheet about it. As long as the roles are respectful and amicably arranged, those women WANT to live in their feminine energy and want the man to live in his masculine energy. 

And I'm not speaking out of preference. My personal preference has always been to gravitate toward strong women, as both my wives were and my daughters are.

The media (or old Disney) used to project the wants of the many. 

What is happening today is that media pushes the wants of a minority and projects it as though it's what the majority wants. 

That's the disconnect. 

Just start writing great stories that represent real life accurately and it will sell, because THAT'S WHAT HUMANS WANT.

Not a parody or a patronising of real life. 

Edited December 5, 2023 by VintageComics

[jaybuck43]

On 12/5/2023 at 3:59 PM, VintageComics said:

Why are you denigrating women that way? It's not about 'feeling worthwhile'. Many women still want to live in traditional roles. They are biologically wired that way. 

Do you ever even speak to any women? 

I talk to MANY and the many that I speak to generally prefer traditional roles. It might even be MOST women I speak to, but I didn't start a spreadsheet about it. As long as the roles are respectful and amicably arranged, those women WANT to live in their feminine energy and want the man to live in his masculine energy. 

And I'm not speaking out of preference. My personal preference has always been to gravitate toward strong women, as both my wives were and my daughters are.

The media (or old Disney) used to project the wants of the many. 

What is happening today is that media pushes the wants of a minority and projects it as though it's what the majority wants. 

That's the disconnect. 

Just start writing great stories that represent real life accurately and it will sell, because THAT'S WHAT HUMANS WANT.

Not a parody or a patronising of real life. 

The problem is you assume your observations are representative of every person out there.

Do some women wish to live "trad" lives?  Absolutely.  Do most?  Almost assuredly not.  I speak to hundreds of different women on a weekly basis.  Not one of them wants to live a traditional role.  They want to be CEOs, entrepreneurs, etc.  

And what "role" do these women want?  Do they want to be a stay at home wife raising children with no say in any decision making?  Or do they want to be a trophy wife/sugar baby?  Two VERY different things, but both could be considered "traditional" in that the wife doesn't work while the husband is the breadwinner.  

[VintageComics]

On 12/5/2023 at 4:19 PM, jaybuck43 said:

Do they want to be a stay at home wife raising children with no say in any decision making?  Or do they want to be a trophy wife/sugar baby?

Wow.

I did NOT realize you thought that way about traditional roles. No wonder you're so cynical.  

Why do you and Bob always go to the worst example possible, which is NOT representative of real life?

How about an amicable pairing of husband and wife, where BOTH people are on the same page as far as decision making, but the women prefers to be a mother to her children rather than farm them off to society for programming and the father agrees to do most of the heavy lifting to make it happen?

My children were raised by their mother and not a bunch of strangers, and I'd cut off my right arm if I had to, to make that happen again. In fact, I almost did. 

[VintageComics]

On 12/5/2023 at 4:19 PM, jaybuck43 said:

The problem is you assume your observations are representative of every person out there.

Do I? I'm actually acutely aware of how diverse the female population is. I have 3 daughters, a step daughter and two ex wives and they're all different. 

Why does everyone always assume their view is the correct one when mine is diverse?

I've spoken to two of my daughters about the Barbie movie now. They both thought it was dumb. My youngest, unprovoked and unsolicited called it 'extremist' twice with emphasis on that word.

Why? Because they're not representative of the charciature that you and others pigeon hole women into.

They're both strong, successful, making careers for themselves, and yet prefer to live in their feminine energy with their men, and if they saw the way you guys were talking about them they'd take offense to it. 

Edited December 5, 2023 by VintageComics

[jaybuck43]

On 12/5/2023 at 4:25 PM, VintageComics said:

Wow.

I did NOT realize you thought that way about traditional roles. No wonder you're so cynical.  

Why do you and Bob always go to the worst example possible, which is NOT representative of real life?

How about an amicable pairing of husband and wife, where BOTH people are on the same page as far as decision making, but the women prefers to be a mother to her children rather than farm them off to society for programming and the father agrees to do most of the heavy lifting to make it happen?

My children were raised by their mother and not a bunch of strangers, and I'd cut off my right arm if I had to, to make that happen again. In fact, I almost did. 

Because one partner deciding to not work and raise the children (theoretically till they reach school age and aren't home during the day) is just deciding to not pay for child care.  My good friend (who is a dentist) jokes that her husband's entire paycheck is basically just to cover their kids childcare (which runs little over $3,000 a month) and that once their youngest is in full time school they are gonna do the happy dance with all that extra cash.

The "trad" lifestyle portrayed and lamented about being gone is one where the wife is subservient to the husband, not one where the wife (or the husband) is a stay at home partner but equal in all other regards.