Comic Book Spine Realignment Therapy, turn your 8.5's into 9.2's!

[Gotham Kid]

Reverse spine roll...

 

Whats the total count of books this guys has run through CGC? I know they said 25 but is that the real count?

 

I would assume much more than 25 sad to say.

 

 

From the Silver thread.

 

Thanks...I do find it shocking that this person only sub 25 books...something smell funny here.

 

I got to 24 from two invoice numbers.

 

It's more than 25.

[Hulk44]

CGC needs to come out with a colored label for PRESSED books, period. Pressing is altering the comic book from original form , no matter how you see it...

 

 

 

 

 

In this case it was, but generally it is altering the book to somewhat back to its original form.

 

 

I understand what your saying, but if you look up the definition of Altering:

v. al·tered, al·ter·ing, al·ters. v.tr. 1. To change or make different; modify: altered my will. 2. To adjust (a garment) for a better fit. 3. To castrate or spay (an animal, ...

 

You see the first, #1) to change or make different ; TO MODIFY

 

Actually 2) To adjust (a comic) for a better grade, works for me too.

 

and perhaps 3) To castrate, might work as a reaction to this particular case.

 

 

 

 

 

How about a red label for modded books? Including pressed and tape and glue - instead of adding notation to a blue label.?

 

Perfect, a Red Label would work just fine, tough to implement now with all the pressed books out there, but hell, might as well start now..

 

Posted from the other thread, CGC needs a RED LABEL NOW !!!!

[Hulk44]

These books are being CASTRATED, period !!!!!

[Jeffro.]

These books are being CASTRATED, period !!!!!

 

It's a CATACLYSM!

 

Damn, I'd better hold on to my copies of Balls # 1

[ChasingKingKirby]

Just read through most of the silver thread and a quarter of this one...

 

Amazed at the profit the seller got off of that Avengers 1!

 

These books look horrible to me with this reverse spine roll and I'm guessing the Batman 121 on eBay right now from this seller has had the same thing done to it.

 

 

 

It's nice to see CGC taking note of this.

 

This makes me sad. Bats 121 is such a wonderful book. And tough in high-grade.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

CGC needs to come out with a colored label for PRESSED books, period. Pressing is altering the comic book from original form , no matter how you see it...

 

 

 

 

 

In this case it was, but generally it is altering the book to somewhat back to its original form.

 

 

I understand what your saying, but if you look up the definition of Altering:

v. al·tered, al·ter·ing, al·ters. v.tr. 1. To change or make different; modify: altered my will. 2. To adjust (a garment) for a better fit. 3. To castrate or spay (an animal, ...

 

You see the first, #1) to change or make different ; TO MODIFY

 

Actually 2) To adjust (a comic) for a better grade, works for me too.

 

and perhaps 3) To castrate, might work as a reaction to this particular case.

 

 

 

 

 

How about a red label for modded books? Including pressed and tape and glue - instead of adding notation to a blue label.?

 

Perfect, a Red Label would work just fine, tough to implement now with all the pressed books out there, but hell, might as well start now..

 

Posted from the other thread, CGC needs a RED LABEL NOW !!!!

 

That is not going to happen.

You have several years worth of pressing threads you need to read through.

Not feasible.

Not needed.

They just need to change their grading methodology.

[Green]

I hope this seller can be blocked, as he has been doing this for a long time (at least 3 years +), and Lord know how many books he has slipped past CGC without any detection of the amount of damage he has done with reverse spine rolling books.

 

On the raw books that have been sold, even then those could have made their way to CGC from unsuspecting collectors. But it would be difficult to tell without examples being identified.

 

Bosco, id like to remind you, the seller has not damaged any of these books. You keep using that term, but the only thing he has damaged is your opinion of the books eye appeal. Im willing to bet (given the amount of bumps) that he is doing a mechanically sound job and also keep in mind that all the spine shifts look fully reversible to me.

 

I find it highly unlikely that he will blocked unless he refuses to cooperate with CGC since he has done absolutely nothing wrong that i can see. Again, these books are his and you may not like what hes doing but they are his property and he can do as he pleases with them.

[bababooey]

I hope this seller can be blocked, as he has been doing this for a long time (at least 3 years +), and Lord know how many books he has slipped past CGC without any detection of the amount of damage he has done with reverse spine rolling books.

 

On the raw books that have been sold, even then those could have made their way to CGC from unsuspecting collectors. But it would be difficult to tell without examples being identified.

 

Bosco, id like to remind you, the seller has not damaged any of these books. You keep using that term, but the only thing he has damaged is your opinion of the books eye appeal. Im willing to bet (given the amount of bumps) that he is doing a mechanically sound job and also keep in mind that all the spine shifts look fully reversible to me.

 

I find it highly unlikely that he will blocked unless he refuses to cooperate with CGC since he has done absolutely nothing wrong that i can see. Again, these books are his and you may not like what hes doing but they are his property and he can do as he pleases with them.

[ComicConnoisseur]

No way CGC is going to pay a lot of cash to get this book back. A lot being tens of thousands.

 

Ain't gonna happen.

 

IF it gets returned to them, it will be with the understanding that it is to be used for educational purposes. It will not be for money anywhere near what the seller was hoping to get for it.

 

No where near GPA.

 

It is more cost effective to grandfather it, and move on with lessons learned

 

Remember, this is all about money. By everyone involved.

 

A question I have is, did the graders observe/figure out, what had happened and decide that the current rules/procedures allowed this and just bite the bullet and send it on thru? Or were they clueless?

 

This has been one of the more interesting threads in quite awhile, and it was actually about comic books! That is a rarety lately.

 

 

+100

 

You can't even count to 100.

Hell, I doubt you could count to 21 even if you had your shoes and underwear off.

 

 

That is right attack the messenger.....but my friend when your collection goes down in value due to the DULUTION of the blue label ...who are you gonna attack.....

 

I do not control the CGC...

I, for one, don't give much of a rats fudge if my collection drops in value. I collect the books I like because I like them.

 

tell that to the thousand of collectors who have invested in this comic book market, you are alone my friend, decrease in value effects EVERYBODY

Mitch yer on the wrong board here. Try the WSJ. Most of us are collectors.

 

Honestly, how many people here are investors?

 

Not many from what I see. Sure, most of us hope our books retain or go up in value but from what I can see, there are VERY few "investors" on here

 

 

I've always collected because I love the books, but at the same time if I'm considering doing something insane like spend a few thousand dollars on funny books, I can only feel justified in doing so if I think there's at least a fair chance they will retain their value. That's because of the "rainy day" scenario - I have no intention of selling but I may need to and would like that possibility.

 

I can justify spending the money if I'm just converting cash into a different asset class that can be cashed in later. I realize there's never a guarantee, of course. But if I knew for certain I was spending $1000 today on a book that would be worthless in a year, well, I wouldn't do it. Or at least I'd wait a year.

No disrespect but if you spent $1000 you won`t get burned bad, as it will be the people who are paying $5000 to $100,000 that could be mighty upset if the comics they spent so much money lose value quickly.

An example is if you spend $20,000 for your AF#15 CGC 6.0,but some other people spend $10,000 for their AF#15 CGC 5.0, then those people who spent $10,000 for their AF#15 CGC 5.0 learn how to game CGC like collectors_comics just did, so they then make their CGC 5.0 now a CGC 6.0 like yours, but they did it much cheaper then you did.

 

Also other people could then spend about $8,000 for a AF#15 CGC 4.0 and try to do what collectors_comics did to enhance their value, eventually the $20,000 grand you spent for your AF #15 would be considered an overpayment.

 

This will also have a ripple down effect on the Silver and Bronze Age markets big-time. I consider what collectors_comics has pulled off here much worse, then the Ewert Scandal, as back then we were all naive, and everything was new. When that happened money was flowing, as there was no housing bubble crash and Wall Street collapse. We all believed that there really were weapons of mass destruction.

If I am CGC I would get to the bottom of this now and put out this fire before it erupts into a storm of mega proportions.

 

[lizards2]

Pretty soon, you'll only have to read your own posts.

 

And, you'll be thinking, 'man, that guy is smart.'

 

I just quadrupled my ignore list, it makes it much easier to wade through pages of idiocy and find anything useful left in the thread.

 

The updates from everyone on the CGC side of things are appreciated.

[sufunk]

Pretty soon, you'll only have to read your own posts.

 

And, you'll be thinking, 'man, that guy is smart.'

 

I just quadrupled my ignore list, it makes it much easier to wade through pages of idiocy and find anything useful left in the thread.

 

The updates from everyone on the CGC side of things are appreciated.

 

I just checked, somehow i slipped past the insufficiently_thoughtful_person list and aren't on ignore

[ComicConnoisseur]

Buyer Beware......especially if you paid a TOP price for the highest graded copy...thinking you were the ONLY ONE......

+1

This gaming of the system will continue as long as they have digital 9 increments as part of their grading system.

9.0 9.2 9.4 9.6 9.8 etc...

Do away the digital 9 increments, and you do away with lots of headaches.

 

So do away with the digital 9 increments, so the hobby can move forward with a new integrity.

 

 

(thumbs u

This is the solution. I say get rid of the digital 9 increments. In the long run that is the best way to go.

 

Duh.

 

Duh as in dumb, unworkable idea? I agree.

What`s your solution then?

What`s Chuck Gower`s solution?

You critique my opinion on a solution,but you yourselves haven`t come up with any original thoughts to solve the embarrassement that collectors_comics pulled on the comic book community.

collectors_comics has damaged the integrity of slabbing by pulling the wool over the eyes of the so-called experts.

Someone now should be held accountable or do we continue to look the other way and

 

What you're talking about will never happen and has nothing to do with the problem here.

CGC did not create the market for higher grade or highest graded books. Collectors have always sought out those type of books from as far back as before your birth at least 30 years before the creation of THE CGC.

If you bought, collected and graded those type of books, you'd realize there IS a difference and it MAKES a difference to some collectors.

Whoever worked on this book to try and make it 'better' or whatever you'd call it, would've benefitted from a grade bump either way, even if the was no .2, .4 etc.

The SOLUTION, is to point out situations like this to THE CGC, so they can respond and address them. What they come up with may not make single person happy, but it is what it is.

Play the obstacles.

The wrong solution is to lose your mind, freak out, come up with hair brained ideas and claim its the Apocalypse. That benefits no one.

you are very dramatic.

My main concern is if this gaming continues to happen,then CGC will have as much respect as PGX. We don`t want that to happen now do we?

[ComicConnoisseur]

Take apart book. Refold each page. Press. Reassemble. Use the appropriate tools not to scratch staples or gouge paper. Press again. Submit.

I can't think of any other way that a book can be "realigned" with a stack of papers that can throw you off at any point. At some point I would think the cover had to be detached to get the "old" normal spine crease out.

 

Because they want to see it.

I think of OCD when I hear that. To go to all that trouble just so a comic book can go from a 9.6 to a 9.8!

[lizards2]

Pretty soon, you'll only have to read your own posts.

 

And, you'll be thinking, 'man, that guy is smart.'

 

I just quadrupled my ignore list, it makes it much easier to wade through pages of idiocy and find anything useful left in the thread.

 

The updates from everyone on the CGC side of things are appreciated.

 

I just checked, somehow i slipped past the insufficiently_thoughtful_person list and aren't on ignore

Definitely an oversight....., :think:

[ComicConnoisseur]

As long as people continue to pay massive differences in price for miniscule differences in condition, the massaging of those miniscule differences will continue forever, in as many ways as can be imagined and gotten away with.

/thread

 

[ComicConnoisseur]

This thread proves we all still care, but today with out "auction house" mentality of paying the worlds highest price, this might put a brake to future price increases on very high graded material.

 

It would seem to me it would be easier to Face Job a SA book rather than a GA book because of its thickness....am I right on this...?

Your right,plus it`s a lot easier to play the game with silver age and bronze age comics because there are many more of them to experiment on! (thumbs u

[ComicConnoisseur]

For those who inquired, in some form or another, as to how CGC could re-attain possession of the books, it would obviously have to be a voluntarily decision of the owner. As a general matter, CGC cannot compel someone to temporarily transfer their books back to CGC.

 

But CGC does expect its Member Dealers to cooperate with and abide by certain policies and ethical practices, and that includes not intentionally benefitting from a CGC grading or restorative mistake.

 

As a private company, CGC can decide who to do business with, or not to do business with at any time. Thus, under certain circumstances, a CGC Member Dealer can find their status revoked, temporarily or permanently, or their ability to even submit books restricted or prohibited. Obviously we know of examples in the past where a ban has been imposed on certain individuals. CGC can also make sure its concerns regarding an individual or book(s) is publicized to the correct people and/or in the appropriate places.

 

I am not saying that any of the above will happen with this particular submitter. I am merely setting forth CGC's recourse when certain unfortunate circumstances might exist.

 

Mark, all great points. And it is still great to see CGC take steps to determine if there are concerns here or not.

 

But the challenge with this seller is he was submitting through someone else for 2 (+) years. Worst-case, he'll let his new CGC account go dead and submit through his original source.

 

 

It is certainly possible that someone can maliciously or innocently use a third party for submissions in a way that masks the identity of the actual submitter, but CGC can always track the book(s) and undertake an investigation to determine where books are ending up following submission by a particular individual(s).

 

Plus, one of the benefits CGC derived in hiring me is that I always have my CIA connections.

 

I hope this seller can be blocked, as he has been doing this for a long time (at least 3 years +), and Lord know how many books he has slipped past CGC without any detection of the amount of damage he has done with reverse spine rolling books.

On the raw books that have been sold, even then those could have made their way to CGC from unsuspecting collectors. But it would be difficult to tell without examples being identified.

He has been doing it for a long time, and his Ebay auctions are always the most watched! People loved getting his deals.

[comix4fun]

Hopefully an AF 15 will suface tomorrow

I used to suface a lot when I was younger. Then, my knees gave out.

 

 

 

Is that what they call a suface job?

 

Yes, yes we all know you both spend a lot of times on your knees.

 

 

In prayer for the speedy repair of your spell-checker.

 

We all know you will be the first one to double check me when I do .

 

 

Just so you know the "suface job" joke had nothing to do with you. You've got to read Mitch's posts to see what I was going for there.

 

Of course the ball busting after that was just for fun.

[comicwiz]

I hope this seller can be blocked, as he has been doing this for a long time (at least 3 years +), and Lord know how many books he has slipped past CGC without any detection of the amount of damage he has done with reverse spine rolling books.

 

On the raw books that have been sold, even then those could have made their way to CGC from unsuspecting collectors. But it would be difficult to tell without examples being identified.

 

Im willing to bet (given the amount of bumps) that he is doing a mechanically sound job and also keep in mind that all the spine shifts look fully reversible to me.

 

You're entitled to your opinion, but these books should not be allowed to be sold on the market. If the downgrade, buy-backs or value drops do not force the owners to accept a Classics play to "reverse" this MAD fold-out hack work, then they should be noted with recreated spine on the label in the same text/font size as when they write COUNTERFEIT.

 

The financial disincentive scenario discussed by Brian/Bob is the most worrisome, because even with CGC write-down and a haircut evaluation, if the seller decides he wants the book, he could still turn around and price it at a higher average than the grade normally fetches because the migration of spine wear to the rear cover still gives the appearance of a better presenting example than the hypothetical downgrade given by CGC (i.e. CGC 5.0, but presents like a 7.0).

 

IMHO, these should all be fixed by Classics or noted on the label with recreated spine (unoriginal production binding) before they are returned back to market, otherwise consumers are badly being misled.

[Bosco685]

I hope this seller can be blocked, as he has been doing this for a long time (at least 3 years +), and Lord know how many books he has slipped past CGC without any detection of the amount of damage he has done with reverse spine rolling books.

 

On the raw books that have been sold, even then those could have made their way to CGC from unsuspecting collectors. But it would be difficult to tell without examples being identified.

 

Bosco, id like to remind you, the seller has not damaged any of these books. You keep using that term, but the only thing he has damaged is your opinion of the books eye appeal. Im willing to bet (given the amount of bumps) that he is doing a mechanically sound job and also keep in mind that all the spine shifts look fully reversible to me.

 

I find it highly unlikely that he will blocked unless he refuses to cooperate with CGC since he has done absolutely nothing wrong that i can see. Again, these books are his and you may not like what hes doing but they are his property and he can do as he pleases with them.

 

Mister Green, good morning to ya.

 

I have to disagree. Rather than this being a pressing service that is attempting to bring a book back to its natural state and eliminating wrinkles or spine roll from improper storage and handling, this is major alteration of a book. Even worse, just for the sake of hiding defects.

 

I realize there are going to be fellow comic book fans that feel any pressing is evil. That is their opinion, and I respect their views. But what Collectors is doing is beyond basic pressing service, and going out of his way to change a book's natural state to something opposite.

 

It's like when sellers use a nail clipper to cut off frayed corners so it appears like a rounded edge from manufacturing. You are damaging a book - not bringing it back to a natural condition.

 

But your opinion is appreciated, and I am not going to attempt to convince you otherwise. Just realize other opinions are this is damaging to the comic collecting market, and can lead to mistrust of a great service that otherwise is meant to protect collectors from restoration. I want to see CGC maintain a respected image in our hobby.