Comic Book Spine Realignment Therapy, turn your 8.5's into 9.2's!

[Green]

I hope this seller can be blocked, as he has been doing this for a long time (at least 3 years +), and Lord know how many books he has slipped past CGC without any detection of the amount of damage he has done with reverse spine rolling books.

 

On the raw books that have been sold, even then those could have made their way to CGC from unsuspecting collectors. But it would be difficult to tell without examples being identified.

 

Im willing to bet (given the amount of bumps) that he is doing a mechanically sound job and also keep in mind that all the spine shifts look fully reversible to me.

 

You're entitled to your opinion, but these books should not be allowed to be sold on the market. If the downgrade, buy-backs or value drops do not force the owners to accept a Classics play to "reverse" this MAD fold-out hack work, then they should be noted with recreated spine on the label in the same text/font size as when they write COUNTERFEIT.

 

The financial disincentive scenario discussed by Brian/Bob is the most worrisome, because even with CGC write-down and a haircut evaluation, if the seller decides he wants the book, he could still turn around and price it at a higher average than the grade normally fetches because the migration of spine wear to the rear cover still gives the appearance of a better presenting example than the hypothetical downgrade given by CGC (i.e. CGC 5.0, but presents like a 7.0).

 

IMHO, these should all be fixed by Classics or noted on the label with recreated spine (unoriginal production binding) before they are returned back to market, otherwise consumers are badly being misled.

 

Completely illogical.

 

Main reason being is you cant tell a collectors comic from a factory misfold. He is recreating an actual production defect.

 

Just gonna start flagging books like this for no reason?

 

 

 

[comicwiz]

Even if the Action 60 had only one owner and he was dyslexic, that spine break 3/4 of the way down looks so unnatural to not have spread to the front cover in a similar length and manner. Hopefully the dust shadow will help the bidders take notice that something is off.

[comicwiz]

I hope this seller can be blocked, as he has been doing this for a long time (at least 3 years +), and Lord know how many books he has slipped past CGC without any detection of the amount of damage he has done with reverse spine rolling books.

 

On the raw books that have been sold, even then those could have made their way to CGC from unsuspecting collectors. But it would be difficult to tell without examples being identified.

 

Im willing to bet (given the amount of bumps) that he is doing a mechanically sound job and also keep in mind that all the spine shifts look fully reversible to me.

 

You're entitled to your opinion, but these books should not be allowed to be sold on the market. If the downgrade, buy-backs or value drops do not force the owners to accept a Classics play to "reverse" this MAD fold-out hack work, then they should be noted with recreated spine on the label in the same text/font size as when they write COUNTERFEIT.

 

The financial disincentive scenario discussed by Brian/Bob is the most worrisome, because even with CGC write-down and a haircut evaluation, if the seller decides he wants the book, he could still turn around and price it at a higher average than the grade normally fetches because the migration of spine wear to the rear cover still gives the appearance of a better presenting example than the hypothetical downgrade given by CGC (i.e. CGC 5.0, but presents like a 7.0).

 

IMHO, these should all be fixed by Classics or noted on the label with recreated spine (unoriginal production binding) before they are returned back to market, otherwise consumers are badly being misled.

 

Completely illogical.

 

Main reason being is you cant tell a collectors comic from a factory misfold. He is recreating an actual production defect.

 

Just gonna start flagging books like this for no reason?

 

 

 

What part of what Matt said here make this proposition illogical:

 

And backward spine rolls are very uncommon, which makes this particular manipulation easy to spot from here on out.

 

In other words, if he can spot this treatment, which means it is detectable, why is this discussion about incorrectly flagging books which haven't received this treatment?

[InvstmntComcSuply]

I hope this seller can be blocked, as he has been doing this for a long time (at least 3 years +), and Lord know how many books he has slipped past CGC without any detection of the amount of damage he has done with reverse spine rolling books.

 

On the raw books that have been sold, even then those could have made their way to CGC from unsuspecting collectors. But it would be difficult to tell without examples being identified.

 

Im willing to bet (given the amount of bumps) that he is doing a mechanically sound job and also keep in mind that all the spine shifts look fully reversible to me.

 

You're entitled to your opinion, but these books should not be allowed to be sold on the market. If the downgrade, buy-backs or value drops do not force the owners to accept a Classics play to "reverse" this MAD fold-out hack work, then they should be noted with recreated spine on the label in the same text/font size as when they write COUNTERFEIT.

 

The financial disincentive scenario discussed by Brian/Bob is the most worrisome, because even with CGC write-down and a haircut evaluation, if the seller decides he wants the book, he could still turn around and price it at a higher average than the grade normally fetches because the migration of spine wear to the rear cover still gives the appearance of a better presenting example than the hypothetical downgrade given by CGC (i.e. CGC 5.0, but presents like a 7.0).

 

IMHO, these should all be fixed by Classics or noted on the label with recreated spine (unoriginal production binding) before they are returned back to market, otherwise consumers are badly being misled.

 

I don't like what he is doing to books, but they are his books and he can sell them at any price he wants. I don't care if he states "Presents like a 7.0!!!" He won't be any different than thousands of other eBay sellers.

 

If the books are fixed, they will simply be regraded like a normal book. The CGC is not going to put extra notes on the label, nor should they, based on their current policies.

[Green]

I hope this seller can be blocked, as he has been doing this for a long time (at least 3 years +), and Lord know how many books he has slipped past CGC without any detection of the amount of damage he has done with reverse spine rolling books.

 

On the raw books that have been sold, even then those could have made their way to CGC from unsuspecting collectors. But it would be difficult to tell without examples being identified.

 

Bosco, id like to remind you, the seller has not damaged any of these books. You keep using that term, but the only thing he has damaged is your opinion of the books eye appeal. Im willing to bet (given the amount of bumps) that he is doing a mechanically sound job and also keep in mind that all the spine shifts look fully reversible to me.

 

I find it highly unlikely that he will blocked unless he refuses to cooperate with CGC since he has done absolutely nothing wrong that i can see. Again, these books are his and you may not like what hes doing but they are his property and he can do as he pleases with them.

 

Mister Green, good morning to ya.

 

I have to disagree. Rather than this being a pressing service that is attempting to bring a book back to its natural state and eliminating wrinkles or spine roll from improper storage and handling, this is major alteration of a book. Even worse, just for the sake of hiding defects.

 

Minimizing the effects of defects on grade is the goal of all pressing.

 

I realize there are going to be fellow comic book fans that feel any pressing is evil. That is their opinion, and I respect their views. But what Collectors is doing is beyond basic pressing service, and going out of his way to change a book's natural state to something opposite.

 

All press jobs change a books 'natural state' (which is a highly subjective term)

 

It's like when sellers use a nail clipper to cut off frayed corners so it appears like a rounded edge from manufacturing. You are damaging a book - not bringing it back to a natural condition.

 

Its far from that. In fact that is directly the old pressing is just like trimming straw man argument.

 

But your opinion is appreciated, and I am not going to attempt to convince you otherwise. Just realize other opinions are this is damaging to the comic collecting market, and can lead to mistrust of a great service that otherwise is meant to protect collectors from restoration. I want to see CGC maintain a respected image in our hobby.

 

Damaging to the market? sure, i didnt say it wasnt. Damaging to CGCs reputation? possibly

 

 

I didnt see you dispute anything i said.

 

What actual damage has been done? none

 

What has he done that is wrong/unethical/against CGC/illegal? nothing

 

For the record i dont like what hes doing either. Noone has made anything other that emotional arguments. If the overgrading upsets people... well i just got a dog looking 9.8 back, am i now a villain too?

[comicwiz]

I hope this seller can be blocked, as he has been doing this for a long time (at least 3 years +), and Lord know how many books he has slipped past CGC without any detection of the amount of damage he has done with reverse spine rolling books.

 

On the raw books that have been sold, even then those could have made their way to CGC from unsuspecting collectors. But it would be difficult to tell without examples being identified.

 

Im willing to bet (given the amount of bumps) that he is doing a mechanically sound job and also keep in mind that all the spine shifts look fully reversible to me.

 

You're entitled to your opinion, but these books should not be allowed to be sold on the market. If the downgrade, buy-backs or value drops do not force the owners to accept a Classics play to "reverse" this MAD fold-out hack work, then they should be noted with recreated spine on the label in the same text/font size as when they write COUNTERFEIT.

 

The financial disincentive scenario discussed by Brian/Bob is the most worrisome, because even with CGC write-down and a haircut evaluation, if the seller decides he wants the book, he could still turn around and price it at a higher average than the grade normally fetches because the migration of spine wear to the rear cover still gives the appearance of a better presenting example than the hypothetical downgrade given by CGC (i.e. CGC 5.0, but presents like a 7.0).

 

IMHO, these should all be fixed by Classics or noted on the label with recreated spine (unoriginal production binding) before they are returned back to market, otherwise consumers are badly being misled.

 

I don't like what he is doing to books, but they are his books and he can sell them at any price he wants. I don't care if he states "Presents like a 7.0!!!" He won't be any different than thousands of other eBay sellers.

 

If the books are fixed, they will simply be regraded like a normal book. The CGC is not going to put extra notes on the label, nor should they, based on their current policies.

 

I respectfully disagree. A new bind has been created and consumers should be aware that what they are buying is not original to the way the comic was originally manufactured.

[comicwiz]

Oh, and on the sentiment about "he can do what he wants to his books", why then didn't we let Dupcak and Ewert continue to do what they did to their books? I've been here long enough to know that it's because the form of alteration was destructive to the books and the hobby, and that' why this has to be addressed in a similar way.

[Green]

I hope this seller can be blocked, as he has been doing this for a long time (at least 3 years +), and Lord know how many books he has slipped past CGC without any detection of the amount of damage he has done with reverse spine rolling books.

 

On the raw books that have been sold, even then those could have made their way to CGC from unsuspecting collectors. But it would be difficult to tell without examples being identified.

 

Im willing to bet (given the amount of bumps) that he is doing a mechanically sound job and also keep in mind that all the spine shifts look fully reversible to me.

 

You're entitled to your opinion, but these books should not be allowed to be sold on the market. If the downgrade, buy-backs or value drops do not force the owners to accept a Classics play to "reverse" this MAD fold-out hack work, then they should be noted with recreated spine on the label in the same text/font size as when they write COUNTERFEIT.

 

The financial disincentive scenario discussed by Brian/Bob is the most worrisome, because even with CGC write-down and a haircut evaluation, if the seller decides he wants the book, he could still turn around and price it at a higher average than the grade normally fetches because the migration of spine wear to the rear cover still gives the appearance of a better presenting example than the hypothetical downgrade given by CGC (i.e. CGC 5.0, but presents like a 7.0).

 

IMHO, these should all be fixed by Classics or noted on the label with recreated spine (unoriginal production binding) before they are returned back to market, otherwise consumers are badly being misled.

 

Completely illogical.

 

Main reason being is you cant tell a collectors comic from a factory misfold. He is recreating an actual production defect.

 

Just gonna start flagging books like this for no reason?

 

 

 

What part of what Matt said here make this proposition illogical:

 

And backward spine rolls are very uncommon, which makes this particular manipulation easy to spot from here on out.

 

In other words, if he can spot this treatment, which means it is detectable, why is this discussion about incorrectly flagging books which haven't received this treatment?

 

Im almost positive he means for buyers to spot. I have a PM conversation with him im waiting to finish before further comments on that. I seriously doubt that if i took 100 books like the one i posted above, pressed them and mixed them with 100 collectors comics books that anyone including matt nelson would stake their professional reputation on being able to separate the two piles with 100% accuracy.

[comicwiz]

I hope this seller can be blocked, as he has been doing this for a long time (at least 3 years +), and Lord know how many books he has slipped past CGC without any detection of the amount of damage he has done with reverse spine rolling books.

 

On the raw books that have been sold, even then those could have made their way to CGC from unsuspecting collectors. But it would be difficult to tell without examples being identified.

 

Im willing to bet (given the amount of bumps) that he is doing a mechanically sound job and also keep in mind that all the spine shifts look fully reversible to me.

 

You're entitled to your opinion, but these books should not be allowed to be sold on the market. If the downgrade, buy-backs or value drops do not force the owners to accept a Classics play to "reverse" this MAD fold-out hack work, then they should be noted with recreated spine on the label in the same text/font size as when they write COUNTERFEIT.

 

The financial disincentive scenario discussed by Brian/Bob is the most worrisome, because even with CGC write-down and a haircut evaluation, if the seller decides he wants the book, he could still turn around and price it at a higher average than the grade normally fetches because the migration of spine wear to the rear cover still gives the appearance of a better presenting example than the hypothetical downgrade given by CGC (i.e. CGC 5.0, but presents like a 7.0).

 

IMHO, these should all be fixed by Classics or noted on the label with recreated spine (unoriginal production binding) before they are returned back to market, otherwise consumers are badly being misled.

 

Completely illogical.

 

Main reason being is you cant tell a collectors comic from a factory misfold. He is recreating an actual production defect.

 

Just gonna start flagging books like this for no reason?

 

 

 

What part of what Matt said here make this proposition illogical:

 

And backward spine rolls are very uncommon, which makes this particular manipulation easy to spot from here on out.

 

In other words, if he can spot this treatment, which means it is detectable, why is this discussion about incorrectly flagging books which haven't received this treatment?

 

Im almost positive he means for buyers to spot. I have a PM conversation with him im waiting to finish before further comments on that. I seriously doubt that if i took 100 books like the one i posted above, pressed them and mixed them with 100 collectors comics books that anyone including matt nelson would stake their professional reputation on being able to separate the two piles with 100% accuracy.

 

Set up the test kitchen scenario. I'm all eyes and ears

[Green]

Okay, go buy out CC and send them to me

[InvstmntComcSuply]

Oh, and on the sentiment about "he can do what he wants to his books", why then didn't we let Dupcak and Ewert continue to do what they did to their books? I've been here long enough to know that it's because the form of alteration was destructive to the books and the hobby, and that' why this has to be addressed in a similar way.

 

"We" didn't stop them at all. We became more aware of some of the restoration that they were doing to books without disclosure. CGC modified their process to attempt to prevent those things we identified from slipping through. Same as what is being proposed now.

 

Still, none of that stops them from selling books or submitting them to the CGC through shells. We publicized the issues. Like we are doing now....

[Green]

Oh, and on the sentiment about "he can do what he wants to his books", why then didn't we let Dupcak and Ewert continue to do what they did to their books? I've been here long enough to know that it's because the form of alteration was destructive to the books and the hobby, and that' why this has to be addressed in a similar way.

 

"We" didn't stop them at all. We became more aware of some of the restoration that they were doing to books without disclosure. CGC modified their process to attempt to prevent those things we identified from slipping through. Same as what is being proposed now.

 

Still, none of that stops them from selling books or submitting them to the CGC through shells. We publicized the issues. Like we are doing now....

 

Hell no. Dupfuk is still 100% operational and i would suspect other than having his own CGC dealer account, ewert is too.

[comicwiz]

Oh and on the point about who can spot it, that is irrelevant. It's CGC's job to ensure it's addressed in a manner whereby their product won't mislead consumers.

 

Identifying the treatment will continue to be fodder for ongoing discussion now and in the future, but I think there is a reason the seller chose to use photos rather than scans and whether you want to call it a MAD fold-out or reverse spine roll treatment, I believe what Matt is saying is that it is 100% detectable, and to me, that is a first positive step towards making sure this hack work is stopped. (thumbs u

[comicwiz]

CGC modified their process to attempt to prevent those things we identified from slipping through. Same as what is being proposed now.

 

That's what I meant by we, as in the collective, the hobby, and CGC policing it. They can try to submit their books, and it seems Robojo did for awhile, but what's been put in place was intended to full stop their deception by eliminating the risk/reward play by way of purple label. This has to be addressed in a similar manner.

[comicwiz]

Oh, and on the sentiment about "he can do what he wants to his books", why then didn't we let Dupcak and Ewert continue to do what they did to their books? I've been here long enough to know that it's because the form of alteration was destructive to the books and the hobby, and that' why this has to be addressed in a similar way.

 

"We" didn't stop them at all. We became more aware of some of the restoration that they were doing to books without disclosure. CGC modified their process to attempt to prevent those things we identified from slipping through. Same as what is being proposed now.

 

Still, none of that stops them from selling books or submitting them to the CGC through shells. We publicized the issues. Like we are doing now....

 

Hell no. Dupfuk is still 100% operational and i would suspect other than having his own CGC dealer account, ewert is too.

 

If you can prove either of these guys is getting they're altered and butchered comics in a CGC blue label, then I'm sure we can make room for your thread in CG

 

But keeping things grounded to what we do know.

 

CGC's entire model of grading comics and the inclusion of restoration detection was built from the ground-up to put a stake in Fantazia/Dupcak's heart (if you can even say he has one), and all the web-based evidence and the stickied Harshen review thread appear to indicate there was nothing status quo about the changes to policies, review and policing on CGC's end to bring Ewerts activity to an end.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

Oh, and on the sentiment about "he can do what he wants to his books", why then didn't we let Dupcak and Ewert continue to do what they did to their books? I've been here long enough to know that it's because the form of alteration was destructive to the books and the hobby, and that' why this has to be addressed in a similar way.

 

"We" didn't stop them at all. We became more aware of some of the restoration that they were doing to books without disclosure. CGC modified their process to attempt to prevent those things we identified from slipping through. Same as what is being proposed now.

 

Still, none of that stops them from selling books or submitting them to the CGC through shells. We publicized the issues. Like we are doing now....

 

Hell no. Dupfuk is still 100% operational and i would suspect other than having his own CGC dealer account, ewert is too.

 

If you can prove either of these guys is getting they're altered and butchered comics in a CGC blue label, then I'm sure we can make room for your thread in CG

 

But keeping things grounded to what we do know.

 

CGC's entire model of grading comics and the inclusion of restoration detection was built from the ground-up to put a stake in Fantazia/Dupcak's heart (if you can even say he has one), and all the web-based evidence and the stickied Harshen review thread seemed to indicate there was nothing status quo about the changes to policies, review and policing on CGC's end to put a bring Ewerts activity to an end.

 

Let's at least get their priorities straight.

CGC's entire model of grading comics and the inclusion of restoration detection was built from the ground-up to make money.

 

[Bosco685]

I didnt see you dispute anything i said.

 

What actual damage has been done? none

 

What has he done that is wrong/unethical/against CGC/illegal? nothing

 

For the record i dont like what hes doing either. Noone has made anything other that emotional arguments. If the overgrading upsets people... well i just got a dog looking 9.8 back, am i now a villain too?

 

Mister Green, I already shared that I am not going to try and sway your opinion. It is very clear you are of the other camp a seller can do what they want to sell their books. Now what extent you go with that opinion (e.g. clipping corners, trimming edges, taping pages, repainting smudges) would be interesting as I'd like to know how far does "they're his books and he can do what he wants to sell them" goes.

 

What damage? Altering the books from their natural state. And yes, some books are miscut during the production process. But it is clear now the alteration he is making is not from production, so therefore not the book's natural state of presentment and structure.

 

Is it illegal? No.

 

Is it shady and meant to trick a buyer into assuming a better candidate? Yes.

 

Make your call how far your values go in judging right vs. wrong when collecting and selling in our hobby. But I wouldn't want any of the books he now altered.

[nearmint]

Even if the Action 60 had only one owner and he was dyslexic, that spine break 3/4 of the way down looks so unnatural to not have spread to the front cover in a similar length and manner. Hopefully the dust shadow will help the bidders take notice that something is off.

 

That particular auction is over. The book did sell at a bargain price for the grade, but I'm sure the seller still made a profit, as who knows how low the grade was before the reverse spine roll and reattached centerfold.

[Hepcat]

Check this one out.

 

Interesting as well is that the seller proclaimed in big letters that the comic was "unrestored". And he was being very bluntly honest about that point. It had not been restored. It had been deliberately mutilated.

 

 

[comicwiz]

Oh, and on the sentiment about "he can do what he wants to his books", why then didn't we let Dupcak and Ewert continue to do what they did to their books? I've been here long enough to know that it's because the form of alteration was destructive to the books and the hobby, and that' why this has to be addressed in a similar way.

 

"We" didn't stop them at all. We became more aware of some of the restoration that they were doing to books without disclosure. CGC modified their process to attempt to prevent those things we identified from slipping through. Same as what is being proposed now.

 

Still, none of that stops them from selling books or submitting them to the CGC through shells. We publicized the issues. Like we are doing now....

 

Hell no. Dupfuk is still 100% operational and i would suspect other than having his own CGC dealer account, ewert is too.

 

If you can prove either of these guys is getting they're altered and butchered comics in a CGC blue label, then I'm sure we can make room for your thread in CG

 

But keeping things grounded to what we do know.

 

CGC's entire model of grading comics and the inclusion of restoration detection was built from the ground-up to put a stake in Fantazia/Dupcak's heart (if you can even say he has one), and all the web-based evidence and the stickied Harshen review thread seemed to indicate there was nothing status quo about the changes to policies, review and policing on CGC's end to put a bring Ewerts activity to an end.

 

Lets get our priorities straight.

CGC's entire model of grading comics and the inclusion of restoration detection was built from the ground-up to make money.

 

I don't disagree, but it's such a trivial point at this juncture in the evolution of hobby certification that its bound to rub a few people either the right or wrong way.

 

Here's where the rubber meets the road. Every hobby has an element of it that is crooked. The silver lining is 3rd-party certification and authentication. Without a recognized reputation, you have no bottom line. Don't take my word for it, just ask anyone holding any memorabilia that came from Bill Mastro, and it isn't difficult to trace the negative trickle effect on reputations, as it extends to every authentication tentacle that has worked with that operation.