Comic Book Spine Realignment Therapy, turn your 8.5's into 9.2's!

[nearmint]

Check this one out.

 

Interesting as well is that the seller proclaimed in big letters that the comic was "unrestored". And he was being very bluntly honest about that point. It had not been restored. It had been deliberately mutilated.

 

 

Sold for $300 less than the last 5.0 copy a year ago, but again, he probably made a good profit from an upgrade.

[lizards2]

Check this one out.

 

Interesting as well is that the seller proclaimed in big letters that the comic was "unrestored". And he was being very bluntly honest about that point. It had not been restored. It had been deliberately mutilated.

 

 

Sold for $300 less than the last 5.0 copy a year ago, but again, he probably made a good profit from an upgrade.

And I thought pressing wasn't restoration :shrug:

[Bosco685]

I didnt see you dispute anything i said.

 

What actual damage has been done? none

 

What has he done that is wrong/unethical/against CGC/illegal? nothing

 

For the record i dont like what hes doing either. Noone has made anything other that emotional arguments. If the overgrading upsets people... well i just got a dog looking 9.8 back, am i now a villain too?

 

Mister Green, I already shared that I am not going to try and sway your opinion. It is very clear you are of the other camp a seller can do what they want to sell their books. Now what extent you go with that opinion (e.g. clipping corners, trimming edges, taping pages, repainting smudges) would be interesting as I'd like to know how far does "they're his books and he can do what he wants to sell them" goes.

 

What damage? Altering the books from their natural state. And yes, some books are miscut during the production process. But it is clear now the alteration he is making is not from production, so therefore not the book's natural state of presentment and structure.

 

Is it illegal? No.

 

Is it shady and meant to trick a buyer into assuming a better candidate? Yes.

 

Make your call how far your values go in judging right vs. wrong when collecting and selling in our hobby. But I wouldn't want any of the books he now altered.

 

And please don't assume I'm making a statement Green said "by hook or by crook, doing anything to sell a book". He didn't.

 

But I would like to know what is considered reasonable action for a seller to offer up their books?

[Mark Zaid]

For those who inquired, in some form or another, as to how CGC could re-attain possession of the books, it would obviously have to be a voluntarily decision of the owner. As a general matter, CGC cannot compel someone to temporarily transfer their books back to CGC.

 

But CGC does expect its Member Dealers to cooperate with and abide by certain policies and ethical practices, and that includes not intentionally benefitting from a CGC grading or restorative mistake.

 

As a private company, CGC can decide who to do business with, or not to do business with at any time. Thus, under certain circumstances, a CGC Member Dealer can find their status revoked, temporarily or permanently, or their ability to even submit books restricted or prohibited. Obviously we know of examples in the past where a ban has been imposed on certain individuals. CGC can also make sure its concerns regarding an individual or book(s) is publicized to the correct people and/or in the appropriate places.

 

I am not saying that any of the above will happen with this particular submitter. I am merely setting forth CGC's recourse when certain unfortunate circumstances might exist.

 

Mark, all great points. And it is still great to see CGC take steps to determine if there are concerns here or not.

 

But the challenge with this seller is he was submitting through someone else for 2 (+) years. Worst-case, he'll let his new CGC account go dead and submit through his original source.

 

 

It is certainly possible that someone can maliciously or innocently use a third party for submissions in a way that masks the identity of the actual submitter, but CGC can always track the book(s) and undertake an investigation to determine where books are ending up following submission by a particular individual(s).

 

Plus, one of the benefits CGC derived in hiring me is that I always have my CIA connections.

 

I hope this seller can be blocked, as he has been doing this for a long time (at least 3 years +), and Lord know how many books he has slipped past CGC without any detection of the amount of damage he has done with reverse spine rolling books.

 

On the raw books that have been sold, even then those could have made their way to CGC from unsuspecting collectors. But it would be difficult to tell without examples being identified.

 

If anyone knows or suspects other CGC books that belong to or have been sold by this individual, please do identify them for us.

[nearmint]

Check this one out.

 

Interesting as well is that the seller proclaimed in big letters that the comic was "unrestored". And he was being very bluntly honest about that point. It had not been restored. It had been deliberately mutilated.

 

 

Sold for $300 less than the last 5.0 copy a year ago, but again, he probably made a good profit from an upgrade.

And I thought pressing wasn't restoration :shrug:

 

Not sure what your point is. My point is that the guy is bad for the market. He's creating butt-ugly books that sell for significantly less than FMV, thereby bringing down the value of all other copies to anyone that's just looking at GPA history to determine value of that particular issue.

 

 

[lizards2]

Check this one out.

 

Interesting as well is that the seller proclaimed in big letters that the comic was "unrestored". And he was being very bluntly honest about that point. It had not been restored. It had been deliberately mutilated.

 

 

Sold for $300 less than the last 5.0 copy a year ago, but again, he probably made a good profit from an upgrade.

And I thought pressing wasn't restoration :shrug:

 

Not sure what your point is. My point is that the guy is bad for the market. He's creating butt-ugly books that sell for significantly less than FMV, thereby bringing down the value of all other copies to anyone that's just looking at GPA history to determine value of that particular issue.

 

My point is, the loud crowd around here, AND CGC doesn't consider pressing restoration.

 

See the note above about "unrestored".

 

Now we are entering an era where we will apparently have 'detectable' bad pressing and 'undetectable' good pressing.

[nearmint]

 

If anyone knows or suspects other CGC books that belong to or have been sold by this individual, please do identify them for us.

 

Our Army at War 81

[Bosco685]

 

[nearmint]

Check this one out.

 

Interesting as well is that the seller proclaimed in big letters that the comic was "unrestored". And he was being very bluntly honest about that point. It had not been restored. It had been deliberately mutilated.

 

 

Sold for $300 less than the last 5.0 copy a year ago, but again, he probably made a good profit from an upgrade.

And I thought pressing wasn't restoration :shrug:

 

Not sure what your point is. My point is that the guy is bad for the market. He's creating butt-ugly books that sell for significantly less than FMV, thereby bringing down the value of all other copies to anyone that's just looking at GPA history to determine value of that particular issue.

 

My point is, the loud crowd around here, AND CGC doesn't consider pressing restoration.

 

See the note above about "unrestored".

 

Now we are entering an era where we will apparently have 'detectable' bad pressing and 'undetectable' good pressing.

 

That's not a new era. There have always been instances of bad pressing. The current outcry is that these are the first examples where CGC didn't downgrade for it. They always did before.

[comicwiz]

Brutal.

 

This thread would get sadder if an OAW 83 is found to have come from this source

[nearmint]

 

If anyone knows or suspects other CGC books that belong to or have been sold by this individual, please do identify them for us.

 

Mark, you might want to suggest that someone at CGC go through collectors_comics' completed sales, which number over 1200 in just the last 15 days. The vast majority of those are NOT slabbed books, but taking a look at the slabs present will almost certainly offer more examples.

[Davenport]

I didnt see you dispute anything i said.

 

What actual damage has been done? none

 

What has he done that is wrong/unethical/against CGC/illegal? nothing

 

For the record i dont like what hes doing either. Noone has made anything other that emotional arguments. If the overgrading upsets people... well i just got a dog looking 9.8 back, am i now a villain too?

 

Mister Green, I already shared that I am not going to try and sway your opinion. It is very clear you are of the other camp a seller can do whatever they want to sell their books. Now what extent you go with that opinion (e.g. clipping corners, trimming edges, taping pages, repainting smudges) would be interesting as I'd like to know how far does "they're his books and he can do what he wants to sell them" goes.

 

What damage? Altering the books from their natural state. And yes, some books are miscut during the production process. But it is clear now the alteration he is making is not from production, so therefore not the book's natural state of presentment and structure.

 

Is it illegal? No.

 

Is it shady and meant to trick a buyer into assuming a better candidate? Yes.

 

Make your call how far your values go in judging right vs. wrong when collecting and selling in our hobby. But I wouldn't want any of the books he now altered.

Man, it's getting tough to keep track.

 

Dupak used undisclosed additive treatments and trimming.

 

Ewert used undisclosed non-additve treatments and trimming.

 

This seller, "Thomas", uses an undisclosed non-additive treatment.

 

No treatment is illegal. Adults can decide for themselves if treatments are disclosed, destructive or enhancing, what the value-impact is.

 

The guy won 'CGC Lotto' in a way no one seems to like. That should signify a problem with 'The Game', not the Player. If you green-light and promote winning tactics, Players WILL employ them. Even if others find them distasteful.

 

 

[Green]

I didnt see you dispute anything i said.

 

What actual damage has been done? none

 

What has he done that is wrong/unethical/against CGC/illegal? nothing

 

For the record i dont like what hes doing either. Noone has made anything other that emotional arguments. If the overgrading upsets people... well i just got a dog looking 9.8 back, am i now a villain too?

 

Mister Green, I already shared that I am not going to try and sway your opinion. It is very clear you are of the other camp a seller can do whatever they want to sell their books. Now what extent you go with that opinion (e.g. clipping corners, trimming edges, taping pages, repainting smudges) would be interesting as I'd like to know how far does "they're his books and he can do what he wants to sell them" goes.

 

Problem is im not offering my opinion. They are his books, he can press them how he wants, burn them, fire them off in a rocket to the moon or whatever. That is a fact.

 

What damage? Altering the books from their natural state. And yes, some books are miscut during the production process. But it is clear now the alteration he is making is not from production, so therefore not the book's natural state of presentment and structure.

 

How do you know none of his books looked like the one i posted above to begin with? Sure, some of them are traceable via previous scans but other than that its just speculation. Very strong and founded speculation is still speculation. This is also a fact.

Is it illegal? No.

 

Is it shady and meant to trick a buyer into assuming a better candidate? Yes.

 

How do you quantify levels of shadiness in regards to different pressing techniques without everything being opinion based?

 

Make your call how far your values go in judging right vs. wrong when collecting and selling in our hobby. But I wouldn't want any of the books he now altered.

 

My values have nothing to do with it, dont make this about me. I wouldnt buy one of his books either, hell as far as my personal SA collection i wont even touch a 1/16 of an inch miswrap let alone one of his fugly books.

 

 

 

 

 

[MrBedrock]

A few observations from last nights discussion -

 

1) mmehdy, the self proclaimed "King" of comics is a genius. I don't think there will ever be another illiterate lawyer whose posts can make me laugh as hard AND make me as mad as Mr. Ticket. Mad props to Mitch (thumbs u

 

2) Watching spiderman-on-tilt, the dead Olympic sprinter of boardies, whiff on fastball after fastball from Comix4fun, our posting Mercury, and then Dice, essentially Zeus, was comedy gold.

 

3) Having Plitch and Zaid join the conversation on The CGC's behalf is pretty cool. Seriously.

[seanfingh]

A few observations from last nights discussion -

 

 

 

2) Watching spiderman-on-tilt, the dead Olympic sprinter of boardies, whiff on fastball after fastball from Comix4fun, our posting Mercury, and then Dice, essentially Zeus, was comedy gold.

 

 

More comedy gold.

[comicdonna]

I am glad to see Paul and Mark posting in this thread as well.

[Green]

 

 

Yikes, and there was likely no bump on that one.

[MCMiles]

Restoring a book in any way may as well be mutilating it to some people. To some it is not .

Pressing a book properly may be mutilating a book to some, while to others it's completely benign.

I would imagine what's going on with these books is heavily frowned upon form bothe pro and anti-pressers . Probably much the same way folding the book in half would be.

 

Hopefully the anti-pressing crowd does not see this as an "I told you so" to the pro pressing crowd and draw out the same old arguments, which will not change a thing. But, I'm already seeing signs of that, unfortunately.

 

It will be much better to recognize the fact that bad press jobs should be down graded and CGC should be more consistent with grading period. Had this book been graded more accurately with those factors in mind, it would have never received an upgrade and there would be no incintive to mutilate the books in this way.

 

 

[Green]

I didnt see you dispute anything i said.

 

What actual damage has been done? none

 

What has he done that is wrong/unethical/against CGC/illegal? nothing

 

For the record i dont like what hes doing either. Noone has made anything other that emotional arguments. If the overgrading upsets people... well i just got a dog looking 9.8 back, am i now a villain too?

 

Mister Green, I already shared that I am not going to try and sway your opinion. It is very clear you are of the other camp a seller can do whatever they want to sell their books. Now what extent you go with that opinion (e.g. clipping corners, trimming edges, taping pages, repainting smudges) would be interesting as I'd like to know how far does "they're his books and he can do what he wants to sell them" goes.

 

What damage? Altering the books from their natural state. And yes, some books are miscut during the production process. But it is clear now the alteration he is making is not from production, so therefore not the book's natural state of presentment and structure.

 

Is it illegal? No.

 

Is it shady and meant to trick a buyer into assuming a better candidate? Yes.

 

Make your call how far your values go in judging right vs. wrong when collecting and selling in our hobby. But I wouldn't want any of the books he now altered.

Man, it's getting tough to keep track.

 

Dupak used undisclosed additive treatments and trimming.

 

Ewert used undisclosed non-additve treatments and trimming.

 

This seller, "Thomas", uses an undisclosed non-additive treatment.

 

No treatment is illegal. Adults can decide for themselves if treatments are disclosed, destructive or enhancing, what the value-impact is.

 

The guy won 'CGC Lotto' in a way no one seems to like. That should signify a problem with 'The Game', not the Player. If you green-light and promote winning tactics, Players WILL employ them. Even if others find them distasteful.

 

 

Exactly! I agree on all points.

[bababooey]

Check this one out.

 

Interesting as well is that the seller proclaimed in big letters that the comic was "unrestored". And he was being very bluntly honest about that point. It had not been restored. It had been deliberately mutilated.

 

 

Sold for $300 less than the last 5.0 copy a year ago, but again, he probably made a good profit from an upgrade.

And I thought pressing wasn't restoration :shrug:

 

Not sure what your point is. My point is that the guy is bad for the market. He's creating butt-ugly books that sell for significantly less than FMV, thereby bringing down the value of all other copies to anyone that's just looking at GPA history to determine value of that particular issue.

 

If there's a concern about GPA data or how collectors interpret that data - I don't see how that's CGC's concern other than the fact that the market is too tuned in to the numbers on the slabs, that's not new.

CGC shouldn't be concerned about the "market", they should just grade accurately and consistently. That includes reducing the grade when damage arises from an allowable process AND identifying damage that may be less obvious as a result of manipulation.